El Salvador builds world's largest prison to house for than 40,000 gang members. Murder rates have dropped dramatically and people feel safer

[Micky Mikey]

When???? What kind of fukking statement is this

Two major fallacies in this.

1. Not everyone reacts the same way to trauma or tragedy, which has been shown time and time again throughout history. I can't say for sure how I'd respond to such an event, but neither can you.

2. You not having any conviction in your beliefs to the point that it changes you into an insane fascist when it comes to crime and punishment due to a tragedy doesn't mean I don't also have an convictions in my beliefs. If you think I don't believe in the things I say, why even engage me in the first place?

You're right that not everyone reacts the same way to trauma and tragedy nor can we expect them to. I've seen wicked crimes throughout my life. And have had attempts at my life for simply being in the wrong place at the wrong time. I acknowledge and accept that my experiences have shaped my positions on crime. It is what it is.

I've seen your posts on here and know you're left leaning. I'm curious to know how you think a leftist president should handle violent crime in a place like El Salvador. And could the human rights abuses that come from locking up large swaths of people be justified if it ultimately results in reduced crime and murdersM

 

[Cobalt Sire]

The leading cause of death for Black men between 0 and 40 is homicide. That's a problem that no other community has. This country might have high incarceration rates, but it's because it has the greatest punishment for non-violent offenders, which we can all agree is not a good thing. Well, some of us. Look at the PPP loan threads. "Black" forum members had a blood lust to lock Black people up, but are the same ones making excuses for violent criminals. Where's the witch hunt for real trouble makers? None.

States of Incarceration: The Global Context 2021

Criminal justice policy in every region of the United States is out of step with the rest of the world.

www.prisonpolicy.org

Unlike Black PPP loan scammers, violent offenders are applauded and their crimes ignored, like a lot of the rappers we have now. Gangs and the street life are heavily promoted to Black people. That's where we are soft on crime, the violent part, as long as the victim is Black.

In Chicago, when the victim is Black, the case is solved 22 percent of the time.

https://www.npr.org/local/309/2019/10/09/768552458/chicago-s-dismal-murder-solve-rate-even-worse-when-victims-are-black

Everyone knows gangs facilitate a lot of violent crime. It's just some countries do something about it, and others don't.

 

[Dave24]

Because I thought it was obvious that such measures would result in human rights abuses. Its mentioned in the actual video. But he's right I probably should have went into more detail. Again its a complex issue. And lefties often have naive positions on how to combat crime.

I see where you are coming from, it's all good

 

[3rdWorld]

In America everybody will say they were “profiled” and wrongfully arrested.

When the police are completely corrupt and racist gestapo only here to protect and serve white people you'd feel the same way too if you were in cuffs.

 

[Neuromancer]

Damn they just gonna keep them in there forever?

 

[B86]

When the police are completely corrupt and racist gestapo only here to protect and serve white people you'd feel the same way too if you were in cuffs.

I been black in this country for 36 years…I’m watching my back for ignorant ass nikkas; not no damn cops. Never once has a cop had me ducking bullets. nikkas have on multiple occasions (nothing to do with me)

 

[Who Not How]

Y’all think america isn’t tough on crime?

We already in a police state for the most part

It depends tbh. If you can make a career out of criminality, I can't say that's being tough on crime lol. The issue in America is they pick and choose when to be tough and when to be soft.

Locking dudes up for selling weed for years is tough and racist. Letting a known killer back on the streets after 24 hours is soft and makes you wonder what's their agenda.



The community feels like hostages when that happens. If you been locked up before, you've came across characters who need to stay behind bars. You realize prison was made for cats like them.

And I think we all agree laws should be tough on pedos and rapists but for some reason they find ways to skate around long sentences too. Our justice system is just bipolar.

 

[Gritsngravy]

It depends tbh. If you can make a career out of criminality, I can't say that's being tough on crime lol. The issue in America is they pick and choose when to be tough and when to be soft.

Locking dudes up for selling weed for years is tough and racist. Letting a known killer back on the streets after 24 hours is soft and makes you wonder what's their agenda.



The community feels like hostages when that happens. If you been locked up before, you've came across characters who need to stay behind bars. You realize prison was made for cats like them.

And I think we all agree laws should be tough on pedos and rapists but for some reason they find ways to skate around long sentences too. Our justice system is just bipolar.

They let nikkas out cause they overcrowd the prisons and jails

Corruption is the issue, not if it’s tough or not

 

[newarkhiphop]

Denying people the right to a lawyer and indiscriminately picking folks up off the street without needing evidence isn't something I can support.

happens every single day in this country

 

[Professor Emeritus]

I agree that its fukked up. But look at how many murders and other violent crime have been prevented because of this draconian approach.

There's at least three fallacies there.

One is that you're looking at extremely short-term results. What happens when all the fatherless kids grow up? What happens 20 years from now when the prison population is still growing but they don't have the funds to house everyone so they start releasing people onto the streets who have known nothing but savagery inside?

Two is that you have literally zero idea how many innocent people have been caught up, because when you deny lawyers and fair trials you don't even know who is innocent or not. So you have no idea what the cost has been.

Three is that you're making it out like there were only two options. Why can't there be a different way to decrease murders that doesn't involve massive human rights abuses?

I wish there were other expediant AND feasible ways to reduce crime at such a dramatic rate in such a short period of time but there aren't. The underlying socioeconomic factors behind gang culture cannot be solved over night. And true systemic change would probably take an entire generation and in the meantime innocent people are being victimized and terrorized. Its a tricky situation

That's what people always say when they reach for quick fixes instead of systematic change. The problem is that the quick fixes make the systematic change less likely, not more likely. So then a generation from now the problem is even worse, but people are still saying, "Let's try a quick fix! We don't have time!"


This whole thing has a really heavy "Now the trains are running on time" feel to it.

 

[Who Not How]

One thing missing in this is when you currently live in one of these violent areas, you not on the internet typing up dissertations and having intellectual debates about it. When you are afraid of going outside cuz of the killers on your block, you just want the killers gone. These forum discussions are cool but mothers and fathers in these neighborhoods aren't patiently waiting for the system to improve and rehabilitate people. They got a Malcolm X mentality, get the reckless shooters off my block by any means necessary.

 

[African Peasant]

There's at least three fallacies there.

One is that you're looking at extremely short-term results. What happens when all the fatherless kids grow up? What happens 20 years from now when the prison population is still growing but they don't have the funds to house everyone so they start releasing people onto the streets who have known nothing but savagery inside?

Two is that you have literally zero idea how many innocent people have been caught up, because when you deny lawyers and fair trials you don't even know who is innocent or not. So you have no idea what the cost has been.

Three is that you're making it out like there were only two options. Why can't there be a different way to decrease murders that doesn't involve massive human rights abuses?






That's what people always say when they reach for quick fixes instead of systematic change. The problem is that the quick fixes make the systematic change less likely, not more likely. So then a generation from now the problem is even worse, but people are still saying, "Let's try a quick fix! We don't have time!"


This whole thing has a really heavy "Now the trains are running on time" feel to it.

Systematic change are impossible in a SEA of crimes: non investement, no growth, nothing.

We have to keep in mind that Salvador, a poor country, was left to deal with an issue the US created.

They should add a social dimension to the issue of crimes, of course. But firstly, something needed to be done immediately about the insane level of crimes. In some cases, drastic measures can't be avoided, sadly.

The very leftist government of Chile is also dealing with a similar issue.

 

[jilla82]

There's at least three fallacies there.

One is that you're looking at extremely short-term results. What happens when all the fatherless kids grow up? What happens 20 years from now when the prison population is still growing but they don't have the funds to house everyone so they start releasing people onto the streets who have known nothing but savagery inside?

Two is that you have literally zero idea how many innocent people have been caught up, because when you deny lawyers and fair trials you don't even know who is innocent or not. So you have no idea what the cost has been.

Three is that you're making it out like there were only two options. Why can't there be a different way to decrease murders that doesn't involve massive human rights abuses?






That's what people always say when they reach for quick fixes instead of systematic change. The problem is that the quick fixes make the systematic change less likely, not more likely. So then a generation from now the problem is even worse, but people are still saying, "Let's try a quick fix! We don't have time!"


This whole thing has a really heavy "Now the trains are running on time" feel to it.

more social programs to go along with more jails.

those innocent kids youre worried about are already fukked because they grow up with a violent criminal in the house and they get beat up by them in school.

yall always seem to forget about the people that have to live around these clowns.
it makes it so nobody in the community can accomplish anything

 

[Gritsngravy]

One thing missing in this is when you currently live in one of these violent areas, you not on the internet typing up dissertations and having intellectual debates about it. When you are afraid of going outside cuz of the killers on your block, you just want the killers gone. These forum discussions are cool but mothers and fathers in these neighborhoods aren't patiently waiting for the system to improve and rehabilitate people. They got a Malcolm X mentality, get the reckless shooters off my block by any means necessary.

That’s a Malcolm x mentality?

 

[Still Benefited]

Here lies the issue tho....

You gotta prison housing the most treacherous, of the treacherous nkkas. Thousands of em. Don't think all those dudes are just common criminals either. You got masterminds, master-manipulators, and killers, amongst that population. What do u think arises or breeds, from an environment like that?

The gang or organization that is able to arise from that, is gonna be crazy.

They not doing nothing in there but pushups and playing pingpong