2024 U.S. Presidential General Election Thread

[Big Jo]

Alex Jones types were treated as political untouchables before Trump. They were met with disdain and ignored but Trump made their lunacy mainstream.

You’re saying that the Republicans have been building towards a Trump like figure for decades than definitionally if Trump is the personification of what they’ve been working then definitionally he has to be worse than Bush.

Bush lied about weapons of destruction for political means, lying to the public to achieve political goals is nothing new for America.

Trump was the first person to say the democrats were responsible for COVID, or it was a Democratic hoax. Some Trump supporters think Democrats worked with China to take down Trump in the 2020 election. Some Trump supporters think that the Democrats rigged the 2020 election with mail-in ballots. Trump has caused a probable incurable fissure between Democrats and MAGA republicans. The harm he’s done to this country is way worse than Bush long term.

Totally agree. there's a palpable change in american politics and lack of conduct/ reasonable discourse since trump, an essentially non-political reality tv show personality, miraculously was elected.

I realize there was some groundwork laid with the Sarah Palin pick and Bush/Regan policy but with Trump we reached uncharted waters and its scary to think it may get worse from here.

legitimizing Alex Jones & his base is the disease, not a symptom. it was kind of a big deal at the time when Trump first acknowledged/ embraced Alex Jones by name because Jones was a non-starter in mainstream politics before then. now him and his lunatic followers have a foothold on the republican party.

Bush was an a$$hole within the framework of american politics, yes, however trump is actively trying to completely deconstruct it. when did Bush call for the constitution to be terminated? I am not sure why people are pushing back on the notion of trump being far more dangerous and aggressive than the political threats our country faced 20 years ago. as bad as they were trump is exponentially worse. part of that is just i think how things amplify & snowball over time (in 10 years sadly we may miss the good ole days of 2024), the other is trump himself is so shockingly unfit to hold office and somehow pulled it off and became a cult leader. he broke all the rules. and here we are

 

[Outlaw]

Totally agree. there's a palpable change in american politics and lack of conduct/ reasonable discourse since trump, an essentially non-political reality tv show personality, miraculously was elected.

I realize there was some groundwork laid with the Sarah Palin pick and Bush/Regan policy but with Trump we reached uncharted waters and its scary to think it may get worse from here.

legitimizing Alex Jones & his base is the disease, not a symptom. it was kind of a big deal at the time when Trump first acknowledged/ embraced Alex Jones by name because Jones was a non-starter in mainstream politics before then. now him and his lunatic followers have a foothold on the republican party.

Bush was an a$$hole within the framework of american politics, yes, however trump is actively trying to completely deconstruct it. when did Bush call for the constitution to be terminated? I am not sure why people are pushing back on the notion of trump being far more dangerous and aggressive than the political threats our country faced 20 years ago. as bad as they were trump is exponentially worse. part of that is just i think how things amplify & snowball over time (in 10 years sadly we may miss the good ole days of 2024), the other is trump himself is so shockingly unfit to hold office and somehow pulled it off and became a cult leader. he broke all the rules. and here we are

Completely agree. The Republicans went from Bush to McCain to Romney, to me that is not degradation but getting marginally better each election cycle. Going from Romney to Trump is not progression it’s going 180 in the opposite direction.

 

[wire28]

Even though this conversation is going no where, this is the most critical talk towards republicans I have seen from some of our Allstars in years so that’s impressive. Granted it’s once again not ironically in defense of Trump, but progress is progress.

On an unrelated note, cornel 2024 brothers.

 

[Ozymandeas]

...George W. Bush crashed the world's economy and started a completely bullshyt war that has lasted over two decades and killed 3.5 million people.

And yet….Trump is still worse. I shudder at what Trump would’ve done if he was President when 9-11 happened.

 

[King Kreole]

Alex Jones types were treated as political untouchables before Trump. They were met with disdain and ignored but Trump made their lunacy mainstream.

Agreed. They were the mole people of Republican ideology. Doing the necessary work of promulgating conspiratorial nonsense to distract or redirect the masses, but almost never directly acknowledged or allowed above ground. Trump opened the sewer grate and let them come into center stage. But what made Alex Jones a Republican Dalit wasn't his conspiratorial nonsense - there were a whole host of people just as insane and conspiratorial who were feted by Republicans - it was his slovenly mien and lack of tact.

You’re saying that the Republicans have been building towards a Trump like figure for decades than definitionally if Trump is the personification of what they’ve been working then definitionally he has to be worse than Bush.

No I'm saying that Republicans have been dedicated to a political project of racism and hypercapitalist extraction of wealth from the bottom and middle to the top, and Trump is the result of that project reaching a natural breaking point. Republicans haven't been consciously "building towards" Trump, they don't particularly like Trump as we're seeing with their willingness to defect to Kamala's camp. Bush and Cheney and all those folks aren't MAGA. They're just as disgusted by Trump's "undignified" behavior as the Democrats are. Their ideal is a genteel thief who won't engage the masses in the political process because they're fundamentally anti-democratic.

Bush lied about weapons of destruction for political means, lying to the public to achieve political goals is nothing new for America.

Ok.

Trump was the first person to say the democrats were responsible for COVID, or it was a Democratic hoax. Some Trump supporters think Democrats worked with China to take down Trump in the 2020 election. Some Trump supporters think that the Democrats rigged the 2020 election with mail-in ballots. Trump has caused a probable incurable fissure between Democrats and MAGA republicans. The harm he’s done to this country is way worse than Bush long term.

Trump was the first President to say these things but right-wing Republican radio has been broadcasting messaging like this for decades. Trump didn't cause anything. The top of the pressure cooker blew off after decades of increasing tensions between the political ideal of America being promoted by Democrats/Republicans and the lived reality for the masses. Trump is a wave-rider. Bush was actually directly responsible for some of the worst policy and outcomes in the history of this country. He's done way more harm than Trump in the short and long term.

 

[King Kreole]

I think it’s a matter of what you value more in terms of what you think was worse Trump or Bush and there isn’t a right or wrong answer

Progressives seem think more globally and who are the colonizers and who was colonized in terms of who we should worry about and protect more in terms of safety/well being

Where liberals or center left dems not that they don’t care about people in other countries but they worry about people in their own country first and how a Trump presidency affects them and their friends and family and how it also affects interactions with people they see on a daily basis which is why they despise Trump more

I'm not even making a global argument here because I've given up on trying to appeal to people's basic humane principles in here, I'm just talking about what Bush did domestically.

@mastermind already laid it out, but Bush clears Trump in terms of domestic damage alone. They really can't see the underlying structures, so they blame the cough instead of the cigarettes.

 

[Outlaw]

Agreed. They were the mole people of Republican ideology. Doing the necessary work of promulgating conspiratorial nonsense to distract or redirect the masses, but almost never directly acknowledged or allowed above ground. Trump opened the sewer grate and let them come into center stage. But what made Alex Jones a Republican Dalit wasn't his conspiratorial nonsense - there were a whole host of people just as insane and conspiratorial who were feted by Republicans - it was his slovenly mien and lack of tact.


No I'm saying that Republicans have been dedicated to a political project of racism and hypercapitalist extraction of wealth from the bottom and middle to the top, and Trump is the result of that project reaching a natural breaking point. Republicans haven't been consciously "building towards" Trump, they don't particularly like Trump as we're seeing with their willingness to defect to Kamala's camp. Bush and Cheney and all those folks aren't MAGA. They're just as disgusted by Trump's "undignified" behavior as the Democrats are. Their ideal is a genteel thief who won't engage the masses in the political process because they're fundamentally anti-democratic.


Ok.


Trump was the first President to say these things but right-wing Republican radio has been broadcasting messaging like this for decades. Trump didn't cause anything. The top of the pressure cooker blew off after decades of increasing tensions between the political ideal of America being promoted by Democrats/Republicans and the lived reality for the masses. Trump is a wave-rider. Bush was actually directly responsible for some of the worst policy and outcomes in the history of this country. He's done way more harm than Trump in the short and long term.

You’re saying Bush is worse because of the policies he passed however even you admit if Trump was President during the Bush years he’d do the same if not worse. If Bush was President during the Trump years I don’t think we would have the same outcomes. We definitely wouldn’t have the same irreparable brainwashed division we have now.

 

[Ozymandeas]

Trump is worse domestically and is probably a more odious person on a personal level. He basically encourages white people to be their worst.

Bush, however, got way more people killed due to his BS war. Which is worse depends on your priorities.




Yeah, HL isn't what is used to be.

Even the mildest critique of a Dem tactic or policy and you're a Trump supporter/Hamas Supporter/contrarian/MAGA troll. Even if you've voted Dem your entire life and are advocating for them.

That’s fair.

 

[Poetical Poltergeist]

 

[Outlaw]

Trump is worse domestically and is probably a more odious person on a personal level. He basically encourages white people to be their worst.

Bush, however, got way more people killed due to his BS war. Which is worse depends on your priorities.




Yeah, HL isn't what is used to be.

Even the mildest critique of a Dem tactic or policy and you're a Trump supporter/Hamas Supporter/contrarian/MAGA troll. Even if you've voted Dem your entire life and are advocating for them.

If you admit Trump is the more craven individual then how do you not add to your calculation that Trump would have done what bush did if their administrations swapped if not more?

How do you think Trump would have responded to 9/11?

 

[acri1]

If you admit Trump is the more craven individual then how do you not add to your calculation that Trump would have done what bush did if their administrations swapped if not more?

How do you think Trump would have responded to 9/11?

I'm just stating what actually happened. It's quite possible that Trump would've gotten even more civilians killed in that situation, I have no idea if the US would've invaded Iraq under Trump.

Saying Bush got more people killed isn't some kind of defense of Trump, I'm just saying that in terms of what actually happened, he got more people killed.

 

[mastermind]

I got @Outlaw on ignore, but is he defending Bush?

 

[Big Jo]

"Establishment" is a dirty word in politics but in many ways Bush being an establishment guy is what made him less dangerous than Trump. Bush played the game, but at least there are some rules and formalities that came with it. I think Trump's address to the boys scouts surprisingly encapsulates this notion best.

For 80 years, American presidents have been speaking to the National Scout Jamboree, a gathering of tens of thousands of youngsters from around the world eager to absorb the ideas of service, citizenship and global diplomacy.

In keeping with the Scouts’ traditions, all eight presidents and surrogates who have represented them have stayed far, far away from partisan politics.

Franklin Delano Roosevelt used the occasion to talk about good citizenship. Harry S. Truman extolled fellowship: “When you work and live together, and exchange ideas around the campfire, you get to know what the other fellow is like,” he said.

President Dwight D. Eisenhower invoked the “bonds of common purpose and common ideals.” And President George H.W. Bush spoke of “serving others.”

For a brief moment at this year’s jamboree in West Virgina, President Donald Trump indicated that he would follow that tradition — sort of.

“Who the hell wants to speak about politics when I’m in front of the Boy Scouts?” he said.

Then, standing before all 40,000 of them, he bragged about the “record” crowd size, bashed President Barack Obama, criticized the “fake media” and trashed Hillary Clinton’s presidential campaign. In the 35-minute speech, the president threatened to fire his health and human services secretary if he couldn’t persuade members of Congress to vote for the Republican health-care bill.

 

[Outlaw]

I'm just stating what actually happened. It's quite possible that Trump would've gotten even more civilians killed in that situation, I have no idea if the US would've invaded Iraq under Trump.

Saying Bush got more people killed isn't some kind of defense of Trump, I'm just saying that in terms of what actually happened, he got more people killed.

Trump assassinated an Iranian general, the only reason why we didn’t go to war is because of Iran’s restraint and because of COVID. Most experts agree that a war with Iran would be deadlier than the Iraq war.

 

[mastermind]

"Establishment" is a dirty word in politics but in many ways Bush being an establishment guy is what made him less dangerous than Trump. Bush played the game, but at least there are some rules and formalities that came with it. I think Trump's address to the boys scouts surprisingly encapsulates this notion best.

I think your issue is Trump didn't behave like a President. The people who are talking about Bush, are talking about the results---while not forgetting that Bush didn't act stately as well.