Steph entered the NBA in 09.. Bron 03 they both have 4 rings

[Kings County]

1st time everyone got hurt bron lead in all categories
2nd one bron one
3rd and 4th they had 2 mvps nothing anyone could do lol
bron was gon get pg and melo they woulda had a chance but kyrie threatened year ending surgery and killed the deal lol
draymond calling kd in the parking lot after losing is a sucker shyt
bron should have 7 rn

 

[Th3Birdman]

I've seen this a million times already

What is that supposed to prove other than LeBron recognizing the strength of the opponent he's about to face?

Again, LeBron put up 33/12/10 against that team with 117 field goal attempts.

That is not what "give up" means, my g.

 

[Ozymandeas]

Kobe was outplayed by Austin Croshere in a Finals series and they wanna count that one as a #1 option ring

 

[Th3Birdman]

Post a single game while we're talking entire series, brehs

Pretend LeBron's worst Finals showing isn't better than Kobe in 2000, brehs

Forget that you and people like you are saying Kobe's series where he got matched by Austin Croshere is an example of Shaq not carrying him, brehs

 

[MostReal]

I've seen this a million times already

What is that supposed to prove other than LeBron recognizing the strength of the opponent he's about to face?

Again, LeBron put up 33/12/10 against that team with 117 field goal attempts.

That is not what "give up" means, my g.

It's poor leadership, mentally he was already defeated

 

[Th3Birdman]

It's poor leadership, mentally he was already defeated

You just saying words, breh.

The nikka went out gunnin. You show leadership by what you DO, not what you say to the media after they ask a dumb ass question.

Has Gregg Popovich and Bill Belichick taught y'all boys nothing?




I noticed how you haven't answered my question though, don't think I missed that.

 

[Professor Emeritus]

To me Bron is the 2nd greatest after Mike when you factor in the entirety of his career and not just certain points. But in real time even though most know the narrative it's not a good look that you got a losing Finals record against Duncan Steph and KD. No matter how it's spun that is what it is and in the future that will be bought up a lot by talking heads. Doesn't make Steph better then him to me but it will be a LEGIT argument in the future once both hang em up for good.

None of those guys even play Bron's position other than KD. I don't think it'll be a future talking point at all. Literally no one cares that MJ has a losing record against Bird (0-2) and Isaiah (1-3). And he's tied 1-1 with Shaq. Hell, he's even 0-1 against Sidney Moncrief.

No one ever mentions that Kareem is 0-1 against Willis Reed, 1-2 against Wilt, 1-2 against Jack Sikma, 1-2 against Moses Malone, 0-1 against Hakeem, and 1-1 against Bill Laimbeer...and those are all centers who actually played his position. I wouldn't even have known those records if I hadn't looked them up just now. But you think people will care that Bron was 1-2 against KD when KD had to join an already existing title team to make that happen?

Head-to-head record is meaningless in bball because it's a team sport and there's too much randomness regarding when you face each other. Steph/Durant and Bron faced each other when Bron had a terrible team in 2018, but they never faced each other when Steph or KD had terrible teams because Steph and KD weren't dragging bad teams to the Finals like that. Kobe and Duncan faced each other in 2001-02 when Kobe's team was elite and Duncan had some of the worst rosters he ever played with, but not in 2005, 2006, 2007, 2012, 2013, and 2014 when the Spurs had great teams but Kobe's squad was struggling. This isn't like tennis where the great players have to face each other every tournament to advance. There's too little regularity.

 

[Professor Emeritus]

bron was gon get pg and melo they woulda had a chance but kyrie threatened year ending surgery and killed the deal lol

I didn't know Melo was on the table. I thought it was PG13 and Butler, with Bledsoe in the deal as well, but Cavs refused to deal for guys who might leave if Bron left. Kyrie for PG13 and a 1st, the first for Bledsoe, and Love for Butler.

PG13 ended up getting sent to OKC for Oladipo and Sabonis instead, which looked really meh at the time since OKC wasn't doing jack shyt with either but could have worked out great if Oladipo hadn't been plagued with injuries. Butler went to Minny for LaVine and a pick, back before LaVine had broken out, which in the end was way better than the Love deal would have been.

Eric Bledsoe
Jimmy Butler
Paul George
LeBron James
Tristan Thompson

Would have been a really fun team to watch in 2018. They could have guarded anybody.

 

[Reggie]

This has been the most annoying part about being a LeBron fan-- having to explain to people that say these things because they obviously weren't there.

But as long as I've got breath in me, I'll keep telling what **ACTUALLY** happened.

LeBron's 6 Finals losses, explained:

-2007: LeBron takes perhaps the worst Finals team to ever make the Finals up against a dynastic team in the Spurs. This is due to LeBron going nuclear vs the Pistons in the ECF. There was no way this team was going to beat the Spurs, I don't care what you say.

-2011: LeBron inexplicably plays poorly. There is evidence to suggest there was something going on in the background AND the fact that the League started calling fouls differently on LeBron (LeBron has NEVER received the foul calls he deserves after he went to Miami, this is documented), but I'll save that for another discussion. This is the only loss you can level against LeBron, even though there is an asterisk.

-2014: Wade and Bosh turn in some of the worst Finals performances ever against the Spurs. Wade averaged 15ppg and Bosh averaged 14ppg. Mind you, BOTH of these performances are WORSE than Bron's in 2011, but no one ever brings them up. It's almost like we only care when LeBron fails, and don't care about actual facts...

-2015: Kevin Love gets injured against the Celtics, and Kyrie's knee basically cracks in Game 1. LeBron has to face the budding Golden State Warriors with Matthew Delavadova and Timofey Mosgov. Bron put up incredible numbers in this series, but he had no help. This loss was due to injuries, period.

-2017: I don't think anyone expected this Cavs team to beat a 72-win team that just added Durant. You really count this against LeBron? Would it have been better for them to flame out in the ECF???

-2018: Same exact situation as the previous year, only now Kyrie decides he wants to "be the man" on another team, leaving Bron with LESS help against the same Warriors team.



Of all these Ls, 2011 is the only one you have a reasonable case. What kills me is how you nikkas will nitpick every single Finals WIN (the old Skip Bayless special) and talk about how they won in the Bubble, or Ray Allen's shot, or Kyrie's shot, but y'all NEVER take this same approach to the losses, because it fits your narrative of Bron being a loser.

If LeBron had Love and Kyrie in 2015, the Warriors team might not have ever been a thing. If Wade and Bosh play up to their standards, Duncan would still be sitting at 4 rings. If Durant had actually played like a man, that Thunder team wouldn't have blew a 3-1 lead, and hell, he and Westbrook might still be grinding it out in Oklahoma.

All of these things mattered. It's not as simple as "siX fiNALs LoSsEs"

I been watching Bron since he was in high school so I doubt you are anymore of a fan then me. But regardless of the narrative he has 6 losses in the Finals. Would Mike be considered the GOAT if he was 2-4 or 3-3. Would Brady be the goat if he had a losing record in the Super Bowl?

 

[Th3Birdman]

I been watching Bron since he was in high school so I doubt you are anymore of a fan then me. But regardless of the narrative he has 6 losses in the Finals. Would Mike be considered the GOAT if he was 2-4 or 3-3. Would Brady be the goat if he had a losing record in the Super Bowl?

I’m not sure what the “GOAT” debate has to do with this conversation or what I said, but I’ll humor you.

Define the word “Great” real fast.

 

[Reggie]

None of those guys even play Bron's position other than KD. I don't think it'll be a future talking point at all. Literally no one cares that MJ has a losing record against Bird (0-2) and Isaiah (1-3). And he's tied 1-1 with Shaq. Hell, he's even 0-1 against Sidney Moncrief.

No one ever mentions that Kareem is 0-1 against Willis Reed, 1-2 against Wilt, 1-2 against Jack Sikma, 1-2 against Moses Malone, 0-1 against Hakeem, and 1-1 against Bill Laimbeer...and those are all centers who actually played his position. I wouldn't even have known those records if I hadn't looked them up just now. But you think people will care that Bron was 1-2 against KD when KD had to join an already existing title team to make that happen?

Head-to-head record is meaningless in bball because it's a team sport and there's too much randomness regarding when you face each other. Steph/Durant and Bron faced each other when Bron had a terrible team in 2018, but they never faced each other when Steph or KD had terrible teams because Steph and KD weren't dragging bad teams to the Finals like that. Kobe and Duncan faced each other in 2001-02 when Kobe's team was elite and Duncan had some of the worst rosters he ever played with, but not in 2005, 2006, 2007, 2012, 2013, and 2014 when the Spurs had great teams but Kobe's squad was struggling. This isn't like tennis where the great players have to face each other every tournament to advance. There's too little regularity.

Most of these records you are posting weren't in the Finals. Mike didn't have a losing record against his rivals where it mattered most so of course know one cares that he lost to a dominant Celtics team or a Pistons team that was a two time champion. Regardless of how much of a fan I am of Bron it is NOT a good look that he has a losing record against KD Steph and Duncan regardless of position or not. Mike and Bron don't play the same position but it's no problem comparing them though?

 

[Reggie]

I’m not sure what the “GOAT” debate has to do with this conversation or what I said, but I’ll humor you.

Define the word “Great” real fast.

To win when it matters most more often then not. This ain't a GOAT thread but that's the point I'm bringing up. Bron is no doubt greater then Steph but a losing record against him on the biggest stage will be used against him when they hang em up regardless of the circumstances.

 

[Reggie]

I don't think it'll be a real argument by anyone other than hangers-on who oppose LeBron just for the fukk of it. Most heads understand the nuance of these situations:

•got one of the worst teams in Finals history, to a Finals, to play a substantially greater Spurs team. Duncan in his prime, Bron just barely entering his, some would say he wasn't even in his prime yet. Muhfukkas not holding '07 against him...

Next time he played Duncan he was mid-prime and Duncan was out of his or very close to exiting it, and LeBron won. When he lost in '14 that was clearly a better Spurs team and again a post-prime Duncan. Bron was the best player on the floor in that series, his team was just wack. People who hold '14 against him are wild...

•Steph's first W over Bron came with Bron down his two greatest teammates. Again he was the best player in that series, no one holding '15 against him in the future...

Steph lost the next round...

Steph's next two W's were obviously because of the addition of Durant. When people wanna talk about these series in these series in the future you have to bring up that Steph was never better than Bron in any of the four series and in the two KD series, he was the third best player in the series (maybe fourth depending on where you view Kyrie in '17)...

Steph has three W's over LeBron while never outplaying Bron in a series. Only casual heads are going for a, "Steph over Bron because he 3-1" narrative...

•what Durant has in his favor is the argument he outplayed Bron in two series consecutively. Duncan never did that, Steph never did that. Personally, I think Bron and Durant played to a draw in '17 and '18, but Durant is the only one of the three that has an argument that he outplayed Bron...

The elephant with Durant will always be that he needed that GS team to beat Bron, until and unless he does it without them...

But it WILL be held against him. Just cause we watched it and know that it COULD have went differently is not what we judge players on though is it? Never have I thought Steph was greater then Bron but again a losing Finals record and a losing record against him isn't a good look. Magic might not be a better individual player then Bird but to most he's above him because he beat him more then Bird beat him. Same with Bill and Wilt. Now again Bron is number 2 strong on my list but I will stand by SOME talking head arguing against that one day and bringing up the points that I have.

 

[Professor Emeritus]

Most of these records you are posting weren't in the Finals. Mike didn't have a losing record against his rivals where it mattered most

You're just repeating the most consistently stupid Coli narrative of the century. You're straight up saying that it is better to lose in the 1st round than to lose in the Finals.

LeBron's teams in 2007, 2015, and 2018 had no business making the Finals. You can't name a single other star who has made the Finals with a supporting cast that bad. And if you take out those 3 seasons, then suddenly Bron no longer has a losing record against ANY of the three players you're discussing (he'd be 1-1 against all three of them).

If your entire argument is based on the claim that Bron would have a better legacy if he never made the Finals in '07, '15, and '18, then it's a terrible argument.

Mike and Bron don't play the same position but it's no problem comparing them though?

We're not talking about comparing players, we're talking about head to head. Taking two players who play completely different positions and making a big deal of their head-to-head matchups is just stupid. Duncan's teams beating LeBron's teams in 2007 and 2014 says NOTHING about whether Duncan is better than LeBron. Literally nothing. It's a fukking retarded narrative.

 

[murksiderock]

But it WILL be held against him. Just cause we watched it and know that it COULD have went differently is not what we judge players on though is it? Never have I thought Steph was greater then Bron but again a losing Finals record and a losing record against him isn't a good look. Magic might not be a better individual player then Bird but to most he's above him because he beat him more then Bird beat him. Same with Bill and Wilt. Now again Bron is number 2 strong on my list but I will stand by SOME talking head arguing against that one day and bringing up the points that I have.

When people compare Magic and Bird you rarely, if ever, hear anyone say they prefer Magic because the Lakers beat Boston more...

That is a talking point in the Wilt/Russell thing---->and most heads today still rank Wilt higher---->but barely anyone says, "you know Magic was 2-1 vs Bird in The Finals, thats a big reason hes better"...

It's literally a non-issue. People moreso favor Magic over Bird because Showtime was a stronger, longer lasting dynasty than Bird's C's. Head to head very rarely enters the chat...

We just disagree on this. There will always be the occasional, random muhfukka who tries the "Steph 3-1" angle, or "Duncan/KD 2-1", but historians of the game and heads who analyze the sport from as close to objectivity as possible, won't use this stupid ass talking point