Steph entered the NBA in 09.. Bron 03 they both have 4 rings
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When people compare Magic and Bird you rarely, if ever, hear anyone say they prefer Magic because the Lakers beat Boston more...
That is a talking point in the Wilt/Russell thing---->and most heads today still rank Wilt higher---->but barely anyone says, "you know Magic was 2-1 vs Bird in The Finals, thats a big reason hes better"...
It's literally a non-issue. People moreso favor Magic over Bird because Showtime was a stronger, longer lasting dynasty than Bird's C's. Head to head very rarely enters the chat...
We just disagree on this. There will always be the occasional, random muhfukka who tries the "Steph 3-1" angle, or "Duncan/KD 2-1", but historians of the game and heads who analyze the sport from as close to objectivity as possible, won't use this stupid ass talking point
I disagree, the deal with Bird vs Magic was all about WINNING and who's philosophy and style of basketball equated to winning more. Stats rarely had anything to do with the topic. Back then Stats were used to accentuate your argument not as the crux of the argument. People favor Magic because he proved his philosophy of play won more. That's what this is all about, this is why leader of teams/franchise players get so much credit for their sustained excellence in that 1 spot. Jordan, Duncan, Kobe, and Curry to name a few.
Nikka I said the LAST game, not the one they just played. I quite clearly mentioned him scoring 4 points, so even if you didn't understand what I meant, you should know what game I was talking about.
How the fukk did I get "proven wrong" about him scoring 4 points in 24 minutes as a starter????
The nikka you cape for scored 4 points in an NBA game-- why could Russ not score 5 points, breh?
Can you post a SINGLE quote from ***anyone*** in this thread saying no one else can? Or are you talking out your ass, making shyt up again?
That's easy-- in 2009, the Magic went nuclear from 3, and the Cavs couldn't keep up.
It's incredible that your monkey ass is trying to level this series against Bron.
Let's remind the audience what Bron's production looked like in that series, shall we?
In case your eyes are as fukked as that B.B. you call your brain, that's 39/8/8 on 49% shooting.
Let's look at his teammates, shall we?
But let me guess, LeBron could have done more though, huh???
In 2010, the Cavs ran into Boston, a team they split the season series with. Bron got even LESS help from his team in 2009, with his second best player being a year-17 Shaq, who was literally one year from retirement. Shaq put in 13ppg in that series...
Management, you ass.
LeBron has had the misfortune of being on teams where management didn't bring in enough talent on their own, and being on teams where the so-called stars didn't live up to their names, most prominently Wade, Bosh, Love and Anthony Davis for the past couple years.
-The Cavs are infamous for their inability to bring in help. They famously nixed an Amar'e Stoudemire deal in favor of J.J. Hickson, and couldn't woo Bosh over to Cleveland in 2011. I believe there is also something out there about Carmelo being courted by Cleveland before he went to New York. Him and Paul George.
-Wade and Bosh inexplicably fell off a cliff production-wise. That's not Bron's fault. Wade's body broke down. Bosh never filled in Wade's shoes as the second option. Bron did his job, what more can you ask of him?
-Kyrie was injury prone and a basket case. We still don't know the real reason he dipped on Cleveland.
-Saying the 2020 Lakers was "stacking the deck" is nonsensical.
Anything else?
You completely missed the point, as I expected.
Only LeBrons excuses are valid and no one else's matter. That's what you don't get. It's actually hilarious how unaware Bron stans are.
If I say Russ just had a bad game, what do you say?
murksiderock
Superstar
I would say these conversations are all multilayered...
Magic didn't have to, and wasn't expected to, carry the team from the time he walked in the door. The Lakers had not just the reigning MVP on the squad he went to, but the literal best player in basketball...
Magic was awarded a championship path as a rookie because of this, Magic playing with the Celtics '80 squad isn't getting to a Finals let alone winning it...
Magic got another championship two years later because Kareem was still arguably the best player in the world...
So if the argument is that Magic's play style proved more able to win with, my counter would be, would a Bird/Kareem duo also not won just as much?
You can only play who is in front if you but the Lakers were also in the weaker conference in the 80s too, so that's another footnote...
Bird won all three of his championships as the best player on his teams; did so from the more difficult bracket; did so being drafted to a worse team; and never got to play with not just the best player in the world, he never had a Top 5 teammate...
There is no "proof" that Magic's style of play was more conducive to winning because there's a number of variables that impact winning and both were winners. Prime for prime Magic won about 59.8 games/year to Bird's 60.2, again Bird started from a worse team in the tougher conference and was #1 from Day One...
If you highlight Magic's 7-year run as a #1 his wins jump up to 61.3, so the person who is really hurt in comparison is Kareem---->the Lakers took off and won at a higher degree by every measurable once they shifted from a Kareem-centric team to a Magic-centered team...
There is nothing concrete to say Magic's style of play won more than Bird's. Any great player could have won as a #2 to Kareem, and Magic's resume as a #1 is eerily similar to Bird's, bit not greater than Bird's---->3x MVP, 3-2 Finals, peak win seasons 65 vs 67 wins, etc)...
That is ridiculous. I literally answered your whole shyt point by point
I understood precisely what it was you were trying to say. YOU missed MY point when I asked you about the previous game vs Memphis, where I asked you to explain that 4 point game.
You have an entire thread dedicated to calling myself and others out over the performances of Russ, but you hide when Russ has a shyt game, as if it doesn't exist.
This is Russ with the Clippers:
As you can see, Russ has 6 games where he scores less than 10 points AS A STARTER. Remember-- Russell makes 47 million dollars this year alone.
Compare Russ with Austin Reaves:
Do you see the problem now? Austin is outplaying a $47 million player, yet you're trying to compare Russ' situation with LeBron's.
You trying to equate this with LeBron is an absolute madness. Westbrook doesn't even compare to REAVES. LeBron doesn't have 4, 7, and 9 point games as a healthy starter.
Russ doesn't HAVE an "excuse" to begin with-- he's fallen off as a player. Bad games are the norm for him, and good games are the aberation, that's why you made the thread dummy. You know goddamn well you cannot excuse Russ' game. You literally admit this in the next quote.
I'd say thanks for being honest for the first time I've seen, ever since you've first accosted me with this bullshyt.
I would then say that bad games are normal for Russ. Mistakes in crucial moments are normal for Russ. Backbard shots are normal for Russ. Blowing wide open layups is normal for Russ. Sailing passes over players heads is normal for Russ. Unforced turnovers are normal for Russ.
Any deviation from these is ABNORMAL. Good games are ABNORMAL. You can't blame it on him having a diminished role with the Lakers, because he is literally putting up the same performances he did with the Lakers.
I noticed you completely dodged my request, so I'll do it for you:
Definition of GREAT
notably large in size : huge; of a kind characterized by relative largeness —used in plant and animal names; elaborate, ample… See the full definition
www.merriam-webster.com
(Since I know goddamn well you ain't clicking that link, here's a screenshot)
Clearly, LeBron is "superior" and "remarkably skilled", but since the other letters in G.O.A.T. are "O" "A" and "T", the argument is "to what degree is LeBron superior and remarkably skilled" and "how does this degree measure up against other players".
This really isn't a question I have any interest in answering; I DON'T consider LeBron the G.O.A.T. I have stated publicly many times that I believe Jordan to be the G.O.A.T, but that I do believe LeBron is second, and that if he does win 2 more titles, I'll call him the G.O.A.T.
That being said, I want to draw your attention to the fact the definition of "great" said nothing about "winning when it matters most", even though Bron has done this four times.
For some reason, fans like yourself want to count LOSSES, and that's not a standard by which we have measured literally any other player. Jerry West has 9 losses, but is the logo of the league. Kobe lost more games in the Finals than Shaq, but the myths surrounding Kobe puts him on a higher level in a lot of people's minds. Magic Johnson LITERALLY LOST MORE GAMES THAN HE WON in the Finals (24-26), but nobody cares.
I know what your response will be-- "we don't put any of these players in the G.O.A.T conversation". To which I would respond, this thread is about Steph and LeBron. It's not about the G.O.A.T conversation.
So, context matters when we discuss Steph vs LeBron. Here are true statements:
-LeBron has NEVER been the second best player on any of his teams, and this includes teams LeBron "stacked the deck". He was always the clear cut best player. You cannot say the same for Steph Curry for two of his championships. I know Steph stans like to pretend he and Durant were even, but the numbers don't support that, nor do the Finals MVPs. It's a Shaq and Kobe situation-- Steph, like Kobe, was INTEGRAL to winning those rings, but Durant, like Shaq, was the best player. This is no slight to Steph, it's just that Durant was the best player.
- LeBron's team, when healthy, bested Steph's team when Steph was the best player. Further, he took a healthy Warriors team to 6 games when two of the teams best players were injured.
- LeBron has outplayed Steph Curry in EVERY SINGLE FINALS MATCHUP. If Steph were the better player, Steph would have the numbers showing that. He doesn't, therefore he's not.
- In fact, Kyrie Irving matched Steph in every matchup. I know that sounds shocking, but I assure you, it's true. How can Steph be better than LeBron, when LeBron's sidekick was better than Steph in the Finals?
- When LeBron had a relatively healthy team, and Steph's was injured, LeBron made sure Steph literally didn't make the playoffs. This is important, because it shows that Steph cannot carry the Warriors the way in which LeBron carried the Cavaliers, and that matters when you're trying to say one player was better than the other. You could argue that Steph was playing by himself, to which I would respond, that's exactly what LeBron did in 2015, but for some reason that counts, and LeBron shooting a three in Steph's eye kicking him out of the playoffs doesn't. Funny how that works.
So to conclude, Steph has ALWAYS had the benefit of playing with a better team, or a healthy team in critical moments. This ain't Steph's fault by any means. Sometimes that's just how the dominoes fall. But this matters when you're trying to say Steph is even on LeBron's level, let alone better than LeBron. LeBron has done more with less, and when everything was even, beaten Steph head up. Nobody seriously counts the Durant years. Only perople with an agenda do, especially because if you want to count those Warrior teams, then that argument becomes a LeBron/Durant one.
That is ridiculous. I literally answered your whole shyt point by point
I understood precisely what it was you were trying to say. YOU missed MY point when I asked you about the previous game vs Memphis, where I asked you to explain that 4 point game.
You have an entire thread dedicated to calling myself and others out over the performances of Russ, but you hide when Russ has a shyt game, as if it doesn't exist.
This is Russ with the Clippers:
As you can see, Russ has 6 games where he scores less than 10 points AS A STARTER. Remember-- Russell makes 47 million dollars this year alone.
Compare Russ with Austin Reaves:
Do you see the problem now? Austin is outplaying a $47 million player, yet you're trying to compare Russ' situation with LeBron's.
You trying to equate this with LeBron is an absolute madness. Westbrook doesn't even compare to REAVES. LeBron doesn't have 4, 7, and 9 point games as a healthy starter.
Russ doesn't HAVE an "excuse" to begin with-- he's fallen off as a player. Bad games are the norm for him, and good games are the aberation, that's why you made the thread dummy. You know goddamn well you cannot excuse Russ' game. You literally admit this in the next quote.
I'd say thanks for being honest for the first time I've seen, ever since you've first accosted me with this bullshyt.
I would then say that bad games are normal for Russ. Mistakes in crucial moments are normal for Russ. Backbard shots are normal for Russ. Blowing wide open layups is normal for Russ. Sailing passes over players heads is normal for Russ. Unforced turnovers are normal for Russ.
Any deviation from these is ABNORMAL. Good games are ABNORMAL. You can't blame it on him having a diminished role with the Lakers, because he is literally putting up the same performances he did with the Lakers.
All this typing just to prove my point, AGAIN.
Only Brons excuses matter...
All this typing just to prove my point, AGAIN.
Only Brons excuses matter...
That is an incredibly convenient way to dodge answers to your questions.
I mean, don't blame you. I literally get paid for my ability to dismantle arguments. You're up against a juggernaut.
That being said, I'm going to go ahead and neg you, simply because you ignore answers to your queries because they're too hard to deal with and the fact that you are a dishonest poster that deserves all the heat you get whenever you post.
If this keeps up, I'll have to throw you on ignore, too, and I know that hurts you more than the neg, because just like Gil Scott Heroin and Sccit, you crave my attention. You tag me in multiple posts and passive aggressively post in threads I appear in.
I'd hate to do that, because I'd much rather destroy you in a debate, but if you're going to "hAhA u rOtE tEW muCH" when I respond, what is even the point?
lecon threw 011 finals cuz wade would win fmvpThat is an incredibly convenient way to dodge answers to your questions.
I mean, don't blame you. I literally get paid for my ability to dismantle arguments. You're up against a juggernaut.
That being said, I'm going to go ahead and neg you, simply because you ignore answers to your queries because they're too hard to deal with and the fact that you are a dishonest poster that deserves all the heat you get whenever you post.
If this keeps up, I'll have to throw you on ignore, too, and I know that hurts you more than the neg, because just like Gil Scott Heroin and Sccit, you crave my attention. You tag me in multiple posts and passive aggressively post in threads I appear in.
I'd hate to do that, because I'd much rather destroy you in a debate, but if you're going to "hAhA u rOtE tEW muCH" when I respond, what is even the point?
Posts like this are why you were put in the Hall of Shame
Lebron 2011 Finals Stats | StatMuse
LeBron James averaged 17.8 points, 7.2 rebounds and 6.8 assists in 6 games in the 2011 NBA Finals.
Wade 2011 Finals Stats | StatMuse
Dwyane Wade averaged 26.5 points, 7.0 rebounds and 5.2 assists in 6 games in the 2011 NBA Finals.
Lebron 2011 Finals Stats | StatMuse
LeBron James averaged 17.8 points, 7.2 rebounds and 6.8 assists in 6 games in the 2011 NBA Finals.www.statmuse.com
Wade 2011 Finals Stats | StatMuse
Dwyane Wade averaged 26.5 points, 7.0 rebounds and 5.2 assists in 6 games in the 2011 NBA Finals.
What do you even think you're saying here?
You posted LeBron's stats AFTER claiming he sabotaged Wade's opportunity for a Finals MVP.
You're aware this refutes your "argument" (if you could even call it an argument), right?
Follow me here: if LeBron played WELL in 2011, HE would have won Finals MVP.
Here's the evidence:
2012:
Lebron 2012 Finals Stats | StatMuse
LeBron James averaged 28.6 points, 10.2 rebounds and 7.4 assists in 5 games in the 2012 NBA Finals.
Wade 2012 Finals Stats | StatMuse
Dwyane Wade averaged 22.6 points, 6.0 rebounds and 5.2 assists in 5 games in the 2012 NBA Finals.
2013:
Lebron 2013 Finals Stats | StatMuse
LeBron James averaged 25.3 points, 10.9 rebounds and 7.0 assists in 7 games in the 2013 NBA Finals.
Wade 2013 Finals Stats | StatMuse
Dwyane Wade averaged 19.6 points, 4.6 assists and 4.0 rebounds in 7 games in the 2013 NBA Finals.
As you can see, when Bron plays well, the Heat win, and LeBron outplays Wade. When LeBron plays poorly, the Heat lose.
LeBron won a championship with Wade putting up 19ppg... Wade couldn't win a title with Bron putting up 17ppg.
The fact you don't understand why this is, is hilarious.
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