Why is Michael Jordan generally considered to be the GOAT? What would you say to persuade me to believe he's the best if I don't think so? 🫠

[fifth column]

That team that lost Ben Wallace went to another ECF the year after losing to the Cavs, so I wouldn't overstate the loss of Ben Wallace...

I don't understand what you're confused about. Michael Jordan never took any team to The Finals unless he had the best team in basketball. The only teams during those Bulls runs that were even viewed as legitimate threats to them were the '93 Suns and the '98 Jazz. That's it...

The 4 years Bron won the championship, the '12 Bulls, '12 Spurs, '12 Thunder; '16 Warriors, '16 Spurs, '16 Thunder; '20 Bucks, and '20 Clippers, were all seen as teams better than LeBron's team heading into the playoffs, and yet he won the title those years anyway...

2007, 2014, 2015, 2017, and 2018 are years he also didn't have the best team but led teams to the precipice of the LOB anyway. What is there to argue here? Michael Jordan was nowhere near the floor raiser that LeBron was...

My response was a direct correlation to you mentioning the teams Mike beat in the ECF as elite challengers, so I listed elite teams Bron beat in The East en route, since you chose to downplay his opponents as simply DeRozan or Atlanta...



Who were the teams during Jordan's title runs that were viewed as real challengers to the throne?

Mike never went to G7 in The Finals because he got 4 of his Finals vs career choke artists/playoff underachievers (Drexler and the Blazers; Barkley and the Suns; the Stockton/Malone Jazz); 1 of his Finals vs an overachieving formerly great team on its last legs ('91 Lakers); and 1 vs a one hit wonder ('96 Sonics)...

LeBron played 70% of his Finals vs the Warriors and Spurs. Those are 7 opponents better than ANY of the 6 opponents Mike faced. Stop it, bro. We not about to play this game like Mike's opps were like that...

Bruh we don't care that Mike dominated that era, it was one if the weaker historical eras in league history. He wasn't doing that shyt in the 80s and he wouldn't do it in any other era besides possibly the 70s and first half of the 00s. You're not scoring the way you think you are by saying Mike dominated 90s basketball...

Mike was the apex predator of his era with no natural challengers, that’s why he’s the goat.

Your problem is that you can’t fathom how MJ could have been that legendary so you try to Lexplain away his achievements/ dominance in order to prop up Lebron who is really not even a real challenger to Mike.

 

[Jerz-2]

so you try to Lexplain away his achievements/ dominance in order to prop up Lebron who is really not even a real challenger to Mike.

Foot on neck season.

 

[murksiderock]

Mike was the apex predator of his era with no natural challengers, that’s why he’s the goat.

Your problem is that you can’t fathom how MJ could have been that legendary so you try to Lexplain away his achievements/ dominance in order to prop up Lebron who is really not even a real challenger to Mike.

I've seen enough with the Mike shyt. He abd LeBron are historical challengers, just one played in a significant more competitive league with significantly better athletes.........and other played in the 90s ...

 

[Marc Spector]

Anyone who thinks athletic prime Lebron is faster than prime Jordan is stupid. You mean MJ of the 80's?

Jordan was clearly faster and had a much faster first step and superior agility. Young Jordan had the quickest 1st step of any player in history. Jordan actually ran 4.38 on the 40m in 1982 and there were a bunch of witnesses there, not some urban legend.

Lebron in 2012 ran 4.6 seconds. Athletic prime Lebron was NOT as fast as athletic prime Jordan.

================================================================================================

Also, Lebron's so called skills as a player are severly lacking. He shoots in the 30% range for his career outside of 3 feet from the basket.

He's always been a horrible midrange shooter and a slightly below average 3 point shooter. How can you been in contention for greatest player when you shoot in the sub-30's for your career outside of 3 feet from the basket?

This is what Marbury was talking about :





Lebron has also played Point Guard/ Point forward for almost all his career and averaged 7 apg. That is just average for a point guard. When Jordan played Point Guard/ Point forward, he averaged much more than 7 apg. Also, players like Doncic have already shown how to do the Lebron James style of play better than Lebron.

If Jordan had played Lebron's position for his entire career, he'll have broken Oscar Robertson's triple double record long before Westbrook broke it.

The truth is Lebron's passing ability is vastly overblown. We've seen Harden, Westbrick, Doncic all copy his style of play and spam assists. Bird was a true Small Forward who played SF and never brought the ball up. He was a better passer than any one of these guys, including Bron. Even Jordan was a better passer than all of them, truth be told. Its just that his 10 scoring titles and insane scoring ability overshadow other aspects of his game.

-Jordan ran a handtimed 4.38 which isnt a real 4.38

-Jordans agility and balance are IMO the best in league history (kyrie and Kobe come close). Lebron on the other hand is one of the fastest straight iine runners in NBA history, its why hes such a demon in transition, chase down blocks, and why in his youth he was blowing by defenders. Dont really see how this is an argument when ive seen Lebron blow past or keep pace with men who are far superior athletes to the men of Jordans era.

-Hes a inferior shooter to Jordan. Fine. He makes up for it with his passing and physical dominance.

-Thats 7 APG from the all time leading scorer and someone who couldve broken the scoring record earlier if hed been a more aggressive scorer. Bird, nor Jordan were not better passers. The amount of movement in modern NBA offenses with the average teammate being far superior shooters means Lebron is hitting farther and more mobile assists than Bird and Jordan ever had to.

 

[viktordoomsecretwars]

-Jordan ran a handtimed 4.38 which isnt a real 4.38

-Jordans agility and balance are IMO the best in league history (kyrie and Kobe come close). Lebron on the other hand is one of the fastest straight iine runners in NBA history, its why hes such a demon in transition, chase down blocks, and why in his youth he was blowing by defenders. Dont really see how this is an argument when ive seen Lebron blow past or keep pace with men who are far superior athletes to the men of Jordans era.

-Hes a inferior shooter to Jordan. Fine. He makes up for it with his passing and physical dominance.

-Thats 7 APG from the all time leading scorer and someone who couldve broken the scoring record earlier if hed been a more aggressive scorer. Bird, nor Jordan were not better passers. The amount of movement in modern NBA offenses with the average teammate being far superior shooters means Lebron is hitting farther and more mobile assists than Bird and Jordan ever had to.

There is no version of Lebron that is faster than 80's Jordan. This is not even a debatable take. Lebron even as a young player, at 6'9 , 240-260 lb was too big and tall to ever be faster than Jordan was. Remember, Jordan was quite thin in the early 80's and hyper agile.

Lebron was handtimed at 4.6. Even if it wasn't, do you even know how hand timing works? It is very accurate and there is very little differential. There's a reason why some scouts at the combine still hand time 40's as well. Even if it was timed off in 1982, the difference can be no more than ±0.01-0.10, which still trumps Lebron's 4.6

Both Bird and Jordan were better passers than Lebron. When Jordan played Lebron's position in 1988-89, in only his 1st game vs Seattle he had 15 assists:

SuperSonics vs Bulls, March 11, 1989 | Basketball-Reference.com

SEA (88) vs CHI (105). Get the box score, shot charts and play by play summary of the SuperSonics vs Bulls, March 11, 1989.

www.basketball-reference.com

In Jordan's 2nd game at point guard, he had 14 assists. 1 week later , he had games of 16 and 17 assists respectively.

Bulls vs Trail Blazers, March 24, 1989 | Basketball-Reference.com

CHI (128) vs POR (113). Get the box score, shot charts and play by play summary of the Bulls vs Trail Blazers, March 24, 1989.

www.basketball-reference.com

In all of Lebron's career, playing over 1500 games, I think he only went above 17 assists, 1 time in his career.

Lebron Games With 17 Or More Assist Games | StatMuse

LeBron James had 1 game played with 17+ assists against the Pelicans on April 14.

www.statmuse.com

Jordan as a point guard averaged

33.8 ppg, 11.2 rpg, 10.3 apg, 3.1 spg, and 0.9 bpg on 51% shooting.

in a 41 game sample size , regular and post season combined in 1988-89, before he reverted back to shooting guard the following season.

Lebron has never had such an insane stretch of statistical output over such a long period of games in his career.

It's not even about box scores. Anyone who watched Jordan systematically dismantle the Knicks from point guard in 1989 for example , knows Jordan could have been the best Point guard ever if that's the only position he played.

Here, he outplays Magic from point guard in only like his 5th game playing Point Guard. 16 assists, easily:





So, as I said, Jordan was just too hyper talented. The problem is most Lebron advocates in general don't know what they're talking about.

There was nothing that has ever existed in basketball Jordan did not do at an A to A+ level other than 3 point shooting. And that didn't stop him from 10 scoring titles. Simply the best and most complete athlete I've ever seen.

 

[fifth column]

-Jordan ran a handtimed 4.38 which isnt a real 4.38

-Jordans agility and balance are IMO the best in league history (kyrie and Kobe come close). Lebron on the other hand is one of the fastest straight iine runners in NBA history, its why hes such a demon in transition, chase down blocks, and why in his youth he was blowing by defenders. Dont really see how this is an argument when ive seen Lebron blow past or keep pace with men who are far superior athletes to the men of Jordans era.

-Hes a inferior shooter to Jordan. Fine. He makes up for it with his passing and physical dominance.

-Thats 7 APG from the all time leading scorer and someone who couldve broken the scoring record earlier if hed been a more aggressive scorer. Bird, nor Jordan were not better passers. The amount of movement in modern NBA offenses with the average teammate being far superior shooters means Lebron is hitting farther and more mobile assists than Bird and Jordan ever had to.

So human evolution happens that fast huh, we need a dunce emoji

 

[Marc Spector]

So human evolution happens that fast huh, we need a dunce emoji

You nitwit, Jordan is why the athletes are so much better nowadays. The explosion of basketball popularity in the 80s and 90s meant that millions of children around the world now play the game and exponentially add to the talent pool. Basketball sports science takes off in the 90s, the sneaker companies start investing in camps/trainers and pushing advanced equipment and getting info via VHS/DVD/the Internet meant future generations of players after Jordan are coming into the NBA better trained to be faster, stronger, more skilled and better prepared.

 

[Marc Spector]

There is no version of Lebron that is faster than 80's Jordan. This is not even a debatable take. Lebron even as a young player, at 6'9 , 240-260 lb was too big and tall to ever be faster than Jordan was. Remember, Jordan was quite thin in the early 80's and hyper agile.

Lebron was handtimed at 4.6. Even if it wasn't, do you even know how hand timing works? It is very accurate and there is very little differential. There's a reason why some scouts at the combine still hand time 40's as well. Even if it was timed off in 1982, the difference can be no more than ±0.01-0.10, which still trumps Lebron's 4.6

Both Bird and Jordan were better passers than Lebron. When Jordan played Lebron's position in 1988-89, in only his 1st game vs Seattle he had 15 assists:

SuperSonics vs Bulls, March 11, 1989 | Basketball-Reference.com

SEA (88) vs CHI (105). Get the box score, shot charts and play by play summary of the SuperSonics vs Bulls, March 11, 1989.

www.basketball-reference.com

In Jordan's 2nd game at point guard, he had 14 assists. 1 week later , he had games of 16 and 17 assists respectively.

Bulls vs Trail Blazers, March 24, 1989 | Basketball-Reference.com

CHI (128) vs POR (113). Get the box score, shot charts and play by play summary of the Bulls vs Trail Blazers, March 24, 1989.

www.basketball-reference.com

In all of Lebron's career, playing over 1500 games, I think he only went above 17 assists, 1 time in his career.

Lebron Games With 17 Or More Assist Games | StatMuse

LeBron James had 1 game played with 17+ assists against the Pelicans on April 14.

www.statmuse.com

Jordan as a point guard averaged

33.8 ppg, 11.2 rpg, 10.3 apg, 3.1 spg, and 0.9 bpg on 51% shooting.

in a 41 game sample size , regular and post season combined in 1988-89, before he reverted back to shooting guard the following season.

Lebron has never had such an insane stretch of statistical output over such a long period of games in his career.

It's not even about box scores. Anyone who watched Jordan systematically dismantle the Knicks from point guard in 1989 for example , knows Jordan could have been the best Point guard ever if that's the only position he played.

Here, he outplays Magic from point guard in only like his 5th game playing Point Guard. 16 assists, easily:





So, as I said, Jordan was just too hyper talented. The problem is most Lebron advocates in general don't know what they're talking about.

There was nothing that has ever existed in basketball Jordan did not do at an A to A+ level other than 3 point shooting. And that didn't stop him from 10 scoring titles. Simply the best and most complete athlete I've ever seen.

bullshyt theres no differential in handtiming Hand-timed versus Electronic-timed 40 Yard Dash | Zybek Sports

Studies found theres a average margin of error of 0.175 +.75 seconds. The difference between a 4.38 and a 4.5 almost a 4.6. Thats a huge disparity when talking about straight lien speed. ALso where are you getting that Bron was handtimed? He only mentions running a 4.6 never mentioned how it was measured.

THis is probably the most advanced breakdown we will ever see of Brons speed (and he was an older man at this point)....



He covered space at a speed of a NFL running back. At 31 and at his heavier playing weight. 18 Year old Bron was lighter and had far more of a quicker first step. Im picking him to beat Jordan in a footrace.

and cool passes that MJ and Magic were throwing ...but none of em were as difficult or as split second as the passes Bron made in this game alone:

 

[Ozymandeas]

Nothing because he is the GOAT and arguing with anyone who thinks otherwise is a waste of time and effort.

 

[Ozymandeas]

I love Bron, but, look at this bullshyt.



People act like Mike Played 8 seasons before Pip came

Mike had two full years and a broken foot shorted 2nd year

Pip got drafted before Mike's 4th year

He was supposed to have 3 rings before he played 190 games in his career?

Exactly. They're so transparent. Be expected to win five rings in your first two seasons brehs

 

[010101]

bron against man defense..........*

 

[NormanConnors]

Yep, also we overrate pippen due to his success with MJ. He's a great player, but i put him neck and neck with jimmy butler. And yet pippen is listed like 34 in the top 75 players or all time, and butler is not on that list at all.
If people are still talking about Jimmy Butler in 30 years the way we talk about Pippen i'll stand corrected, but i doubt it.

Jim Butler is on Pip's level?

I'd agree if you said Kawhi Leonard

 

[fifth column]

You nitwit, Jordan is why the athletes are so much better nowadays. The explosion of basketball popularity in the 80s and 90s meant that millions of children around the world now play the game and exponentially add to the talent pool. Basketball sports science takes off in the 90s, the sneaker companies start investing in camps/trainers and pushing advanced equipment and getting info via VHS/DVD/the Internet meant future generations of players after Jordan are coming into the NBA better trained to be faster, stronger, more skilled and better prepared.

So how comes Jokic is currently the champ and best player in the NBA? Where are the bigger faster stronger more skilled players to stop him?

MJ dominated in the era of great hof centers so it couldn’t have been all physical. Who is training the players today on mental toughness, killer instinct and competitive spirit? Basketball ain’t track & field

 

[fifth column]

I've seen enough with the Mike shyt. He abd LeBron are historical challengers, just one played in a significant more competitive league with significantly better athletes.........and other played in the 90s ...

If you think this era was more competitive than the 80s, 90s then Bron should get knocked down a few spots on the all time list for trying to rig the system with super teams and still underachieving with all those finals loses. I’m starting to go back and watch the prime Kobe and prime Lebron games more frequently and Kobe was just better.

 

[Marc Spector]

So how comes Jokic is currently the champ and best player in the NBA? Where are the bigger faster stronger more skilled players to stop him?

MJ dominated in the era of great hof centers so it couldn’t have been all physical. Who is training the players today on mental toughness, killer instinct and competitive spirit? Basketball ain’t track & field

So how comes Jokic is currently the champ and best player in the NBA? Where are the bigger faster stronger more skilled players to stop him?

MJ dominated in the era of great hof centers so it couldn’t have been all physical. Who is training the players today on mental toughness, killer instinct and competitive spirit? Basketball ain’t track & field

do u watch basketball or skim through it?

Jokic is a Ox with the touch of Tim Duncan and Magics Vision. surrounded by a squad of shooters/hustlers who are gonna eat off the double teams/switches that Jokics gravity creates.

are u implying that because Jokic is slowfooted (but has elite level passing, vision, IQ, shot selection, and strength), the rest of the NBA actually isnt on average better athletes and ball players than Jordans era?