Why is Michael Jordan generally considered to be the GOAT? What would you say to persuade me to believe he's the best if I don't think so? 🫠

[fifth column]

My dad and I first had this "who do you think is the GOAT" around a decade or so, give or take. Probably a little longer, it was in the early 2010s, because I got outta prison in October 2009. Somewhere in the early 10s I thought to ask him this and it comes up on average once every year or so because he watches ball...

I remember the very first time I asked him this, he told me Kobe and Mike were equals, and he reaffirmed this opinion about 2 years ago. I don't agree with him on this, I personally think Kobe's slightly overrated. But my dad said he doesn't see the gap between Kobe and Mike, literally said "there ain't one"...

When LeBron entered the convo my dad said he could easily make the argument of LeBron as a better player than Mike. And in a nutshell, again this is a 58-year old nikka who watched all that 80s ball in real time that nikkas who were kids glamorize on here, he gets tired of people "overrating" how good those Pistons, Celtics, and Lakers were in the 80s. But he will point out how Mike wasn't winning championships when those teams were winning...

My dad was a Sixers and Bucks fan coming up, still roots for those teams lightweight. Dr J Super Stan Hates the Lakers, hates the Celtics, and he likes Mike and says he clearly has a case as GOAT, but never once thought I the 80s or 90s that he was watching THE greatest player ever...

He likes Kareem but doesn't think he the GOAT either, my dad is more along the lines of, there can be no one GOAT because the game evolves and changes with each era, nikkas are not playing the same competition under the same rules. I get that, I slightly disagree with this too, because I think there are a literal handful of guys that stand out regardless of era (Bron and Mike would transcend any era of ball), but I get that line of thought. Don't tell me someone is greater than someone because he dominated ___ era when the dudes we comparing him to were of a different era...

I did time in the 00s and met plenty of OGs who valued other guys as GOAT and/or just don't think Mike is "the" GOAT. This is not a unique viewpoint and we know mad older NBA guys don't see Mike as the GOAT either. Only on this board with everyone younger than Mike by 15 years plus, do nikkas act like it's blasphemous that you don't see Mike as GOAT. We all know the consensus opinion says he is, and we all know why. But it's not unusual to find guys who don't think Mike is GOAT if you've talked to enough people...

This reminds me, @Scientific Playa is the only poster on here older than Mike. Do you follow ball, and if so where do you stand in relation to Mike and the GOAT debate?

It’s not that everyone don’t think MJ is the goat, it’s that you want everyone to think a lesser player like Lebron surpassed MJ on the all time list with your imagination evidence

 

[Sccit]

Your basketball IQ is fukking terrible you still my nikka though...

U OF ALL PEOPLE

 

[Sccit]

Lebron would not have any fans if Jordan played in this era.


The only advantage Lebron has over Jordan is the fact Jordan retired 20 years ago and most Lebron fans that have an opinion about Jordan

(1) Did not watch Jordan play at all

(2) Only watched Jordan play towards the very tale end of his career in the Wizards or the last 3 years in the Bulls

(3) Are too emotionally invested in Lebron to even care to watch Jordan or admit someone else was much better player

The reason nobody gets hype over Kobe/Wade/Steph debates is because none of those players have their own personal agency infiltrating the media , with well placed figure heads there, boosting Lebron at every chance and keeping him relevant (Shannon Sharpe, Kendrick Perkins, Nick Wright) Interestingly, all those 3 names have admitted in the past that Jordan is the best of all time, before they got bought out.

Lebron is not that good and his style of play has been proven to not be championship winning material. Sure, it can be effective in the regular season , when teams are not game planning as much. But in the playoffs, against high IQ teams, Lebron gets found out.
Devaluing your teammates and turning them into spot up shooters camping in the corner while you stockpile cheap assists and rebounds is NOT team basketball.

He had his best success when he played with structure in Miami and had a well defined role, but his tremendous ego and desire to hop from team to team to scavenge championships meant he left the best coach he ever had.

Other players have also copied Lebron's style : Doncic, Westbrook and Harden and did it better. i.e they are greater triple threats than Lebron.
Doncic already for his career averages 27.5ppg /8.6rpg/8.0apg

Another fallacy that surrounds Lebron is that being an army swiss knife as you say is wrongly associated with being a triple threat. Points, rebounds, assists,

But what about the full package? Points, rebounds, assists, steals, blocks, FG%, turnover %, free throw % that ACTUALLY shows who the best all round player is?

Fortunately, we have an all encompassing stat for that: GameScore = Game Score in Basketball Explained

According to GameScore, Jordan has statistically 1/5th or 20/100 of the best NBA games played in the last 50 years.
Lebron is not even close to this. Never mind, he's played in the most watered down era in the last 7 years of his career.

Jordan was not a stat chaser, he was a team player and a winner. Which is why he humbled himself and bought into the stat-limiting Triangle offense. Instead of just going crazy and going for 40 and 50 in every game like he was doing in the 80's.

 

[Sccit]

My dad and I first had this "who do you think is the GOAT" around a decade or so, give or take. Probably a little longer, it was in the early 2010s, because I got outta prison in October 2009. Somewhere in the early 10s I thought to ask him this and it comes up on average once every year or so because he watches ball...

I remember the very first time I asked him this, he told me Kobe and Mike were equals, and he reaffirmed this opinion about 2 years ago. I don't agree with him on this, I personally think Kobe's slightly overrated. But my dad said he doesn't see the gap between Kobe and Mike, literally said "there ain't one"...

When LeBron entered the convo my dad said he could easily make the argument of LeBron as a better player than Mike. And in a nutshell, again this is a 58-year old nikka who watched all that 80s ball in real time that nikkas who were kids glamorize on here, he gets tired of people "overrating" how good those Pistons, Celtics, and Lakers were in the 80s. But he will point out how Mike wasn't winning championships when those teams were winning...

My dad was a Sixers and Bucks fan coming up, still roots for those teams lightweight. Dr J Super Stan Hates the Lakers, hates the Celtics, and he likes Mike and says he clearly has a case as GOAT, but never once thought I the 80s or 90s that he was watching THE greatest player ever...

He likes Kareem but doesn't think he the GOAT either, my dad is more along the lines of, there can be no one GOAT because the game evolves and changes with each era, nikkas are not playing the same competition under the same rules. I get that, I slightly disagree with this too, because I think there are a literal handful of guys that stand out regardless of era (Bron and Mike would transcend any era of ball), but I get that line of thought. Don't tell me someone is greater than someone because he dominated ___ era when the dudes we comparing him to were of a different era...

I did time in the 00s and met plenty of OGs who valued other guys as GOAT and/or just don't think Mike is "the" GOAT. This is not a unique viewpoint and we know mad older NBA guys don't see Mike as the GOAT either. Only on this board with everyone younger than Mike by 15 years plus, do nikkas act like it's blasphemous that you don't see Mike as GOAT. We all know the consensus opinion says he is, and we all know why. But it's not unusual to find guys who don't think Mike is GOAT if you've talked to enough people...

This reminds me, @Scientific Playa is the only poster on here older than Mike. Do you follow ball, and if so where do you stand in relation to Mike and the GOAT debate?

SO YOUR DAD HATES THE LAKERS YET HE THINKS THERES AN ARGUMENT FOR KOBE AS GOAT………

THAT SHOULD TELL U ALL U NEED TO KNOW ABOUT HOW RETARDED YOUR TAKES ARE

THATS THE MAN WHO SHOT U OUT HIS MUFUCCIN NUTS - SHOW SOME RESPECT

 

[murksiderock]

I do like Lebron as a basketball player, I never denied that. I despise y’all church of Bron worshippers though with all the spreadsheet basketball stuff that y’all try to force in the fake MJ vs Bron debate

It’s not that everyone don’t think MJ is the goat, it’s that you want everyone to think a lesser player like Lebron surpassed MJ on the all time list with your imagination evidence

You stay talking stats when it's clear I've never made a statistical case for LeBron. I think you be forgetting who you talk to I'm not the stat nikka on here, though I could make the statistical case for Bron and be correct in doing so, if I wanted to...

SO YOUR DAD HATES THE LAKERS YET HE THINKS THERES AN ARGUMENT FOR KOBE AS GOAT………

THAT SHOULD TELL U ALL U NEED TO KNOW ABOUT HOW RETARDED YOUR TAKES ARE

THATS THE MAN WHO SHOT U OUT HIS MUFUCCIN NUTS - SHOW SOME RESPECT

You just be talking, he's not my birth father, I didnt actually come from him, dummy...

I should say, he hates the Celtics more than he hates the Lakers. He doesn't like the Lakers always being in the news. But yeah he thinks Kobe is in the convo, he also thinks LeBron is, so what does that tell your dumb ass?

He said he doesn't see a gap between Mike and Kobe but he's actually said he can see why people say LeBron is BETTER than Mike, he's never said Kobe was better than either one. Don't warp the thread though, the point is, he doesn't think Mike is the greatest player ever. He has a real issue with cats his age and people in general who think Mike has no competition for that position, because to him there's someone from each era who has a case, and you can never say who definitively is "the" GOAT because none of these guys are playing at the same time under the same parameters of basketball...

 

[Smokin Rider]

Jordan is and will probably always be the GOAT. His name is just synonymous with greatness across all sports.

 

[fifth column]

You stay talking stats when it's clear I've never made a statistical case for LeBron. I think you be forgetting who you talk to I'm not the stat nikka on here, though I could make the statistical case for Bron and be correct in doing so, if I wanted to...

You just be talking, he's not my birth father, I didnt actually come from him, dummy...

I should say, he hates the Celtics more than he hates the Lakers. He doesn't like the Lakers always being in the news. But yeah he thinks Kobe is in the convo, he also thinks LeBron is, so what does that tell your dumb ass?

He said he doesn't see a gap between Mike and Kobe but he's actually said he can see why people say LeBron is BETTER than Mike, he's never said Kobe was better than either one. Don't warp the thread though, the point is, he doesn't think Mike is the greatest player ever. He has a real issue with cats his age and people in general who think Mike has no competition for that position, because to him there's someone from each era who has a case, and you can never say who definitively is "the" GOAT because none of these guys are playing at the same time under the same parameters of basketball...

The “stat nikka” thinks MJ is the goat though but he would give up his typing fingers and god gifted 24 hours a day to defend Lebron’s legacy. You on the other hand is just a hardcore cult member of the blind witness church of Lebron James which has other members such as Nick Wright and Shannon Sharpe. Y’all are no different from the rook who said PG was his goat

 

[Sccit]

You stay talking stats when it's clear I've never made a statistical case for LeBron. I think you be forgetting who you talk to I'm not the stat nikka on here, though I could make the statistical case for Bron and be correct in doing so, if I wanted to...

You just be talking, he's not my birth father, I didnt actually come from him, dummy...

I should say, he hates the Celtics more than he hates the Lakers. He doesn't like the Lakers always being in the news. But yeah he thinks Kobe is in the convo, he also thinks LeBron is, so what does that tell your dumb ass?

He said he doesn't see a gap between Mike and Kobe but he's actually said he can see why people say LeBron is BETTER than Mike, he's never said Kobe was better than either one. Don't warp the thread though, the point is, he doesn't think Mike is the greatest player ever. He has a real issue with cats his age and people in general who think Mike has no competition for that position, because to him there's someone from each era who has a case, and you can never say who definitively is "the" GOAT because none of these guys are playing at the same time under the same parameters of basketball...

LOOK HOW EMOTIONAL U GET OVER A SIMPLE ASSESSMENT, HURLIN INSULTS, PROLLY SLAMMING THINGS AROUND THE HOUSE IN A FIT OF RAGE

WEIRDO SHIIT

HE’S NOT YOUR BIRTH FATHER? MAKES SENSE

I THINK I FOUND YOUR REAL POPS THO

 

[Sunalmighty]

Bobby Knight called MJ the GOAT before he even stepped on an NBA Court.

He averaged 28.2 points, 6.5 rebounds, 5.9 assists, 2.4 steals a game on 51% shooting as a rookie. Why in the world would he need a machine behind him? His game did all the talking.

The man was simply just that great.

Word and bob knight says the same thing to this day. he kept it simple

"he was just better than everybody"

 

[LV Koopa]

You stay talking stats when it's clear I've never made a statistical case for LeBron. I think you be forgetting who you talk to I'm not the stat nikka on here, though I could make the statistical case for Bron and be correct in doing so, if I wanted to...

You just be talking, he's not my birth father, I didnt actually come from him, dummy...

I should say, he hates the Celtics more than he hates the Lakers. He doesn't like the Lakers always being in the news. But yeah he thinks Kobe is in the convo, he also thinks LeBron is, so what does that tell your dumb ass?

He said he doesn't see a gap between Mike and Kobe but he's actually said he can see why people say LeBron is BETTER than Mike, he's never said Kobe was better than either one. Don't warp the thread though, the point is, he doesn't think Mike is the greatest player ever. He has a real issue with cats his age and people in general who think Mike has no competition for that position, because to him there's someone from each era who has a case, and you can never say who definitively is "the" GOAT because none of these guys are playing at the same time under the same parameters of basketball...

No matter how many times you explain it these guys just refuse to understand. Like I said, the Jordan narrative warps discussions to stupid levels. The fact you even TRY to establish era differences for players has them foaming at the mouth. Thread wasn't even about LeBron but we knew it would go this way.

 

[Reign X]

That team that lost Ben Wallace went to another ECF the year after losing to the Cavs, so I wouldn't overstate the loss of Ben Wallace...

I don't understand what you're confused about. Michael Jordan never took any team to The Finals unless he had the best team in basketball. The only teams during those Bulls runs that were even viewed as legitimate threats to them were the '93 Suns and the '98 Jazz. That's it...

The 4 years Bron won the championship, the '12 Bulls, '12 Spurs, '12 Thunder; '16 Warriors, '16 Spurs, '16 Thunder; '20 Bucks, and '20 Clippers, were all seen as teams better than LeBron's team heading into the playoffs, and yet he won the title those years anyway...

2007, 2014, 2015, 2017, and 2018 are years he also didn't have the best team but led teams to the precipice of the LOB anyway. What is there to argue here? Michael Jordan was nowhere near the floor raiser that LeBron was...

My response was a direct correlation to you mentioning the teams Mike beat in the ECF as elite challengers, so I listed elite teams Bron beat in The East en route, since you chose to downplay his opponents as simply DeRozan or Atlanta...

You think 07 pistons without Ben Wallace were a better playoff team then champion bad boy pistons? Mike was taking them 6 and 7 games, in years that no one else came as close. Why act like he couldn’t greatly raise floor of a team? Pippen no showed in both elimination games. I wouldn’t rank Lebrons performance in 07 ahead of what mike did. Mike just faced best team, earlier on.

Purely odds wise, Knicks in 93 were given a good chance too and 98 pacers. If bron didn’t choke 2011 away, those 2012 odds likely are more in his favour. 2020 he didn’t need to play either clippers or bucks. You can throw in 98 lakers, 91 blazers, if doing that.

 

[Devil Plisken…CMS]

Jordan is and will probably always be the GOAT. His name is just synonymous with greatness across all sports.

The bewilderment on the faces of children when they see him play for the first time. Same grip Michael Jackson still has

 

[Reign X]

Lebron stans are the worst, with hating on players from previous generations and laughing at 90’s. Like Shaq and Hakeem weren’t in Jordan’s era. Duncan and David robinson in 98 lost to jazz.

Jordan’s era was just stronger at c, and Lebrons prime had wing players. But look back and see what gave Lebron trouble. Chandler, duncan, protecting rim.

 

[BuckFilly]

It’s not that Jordan won 6 Championships.

Or that he was 6–0 in the Finals with 6 Finals MVPs.

It’s not that he won 10 scoring titles. Or 3 steals titles. Or 5 MVPs.

It’s not that he’s the all-time leader in PPG in the regular season, and in the playoffs.

It wasn’t the 2 3-peats. It wasn’t that he also had multiple first team selections for all-NBA and all-defense. It wasn’t that DPoY, the RoY, or the times he risked his reputation in the Slam Dunk contest, winning 2 out of 3. Or that he consistently took every challenge or defeat and turned it into a “then I took it personal” moment. It wasn’t that he made shaving your head cool, or pioneered having a brand in his name, or made baggy shorts - thankfully - take over as a style.

Jordan was great because he won his 6 Rings while also winning the scoring titles while also winning the steals title (at times) while also winning the MVP (at times - and if not, he took it personal), while also being voted first team defense, while also being All-NBA first team.. you get the picture.

He did it all at the same time.

And *how* he did it almost mattered as much as what he did.

He had near flawless fundamentals honed through years of rigorous discipline and practice, but layered on top of those mechanics an unparalleled panache for improvisation and artistry. There was no situation MJ was unprepared for, because he had either rehearsed it, or was able to adjust on the spot.

The league feared him. The league depended on him. Players and fans revered him. He did all of this in 11 full seasons with Chicago. He did most of this while being told he couldn’t do it. He climbed the NBA mountain, and once he got to the top, no one kicked him off except when he decided to step down.

Wilt’s legend was based on stats.

Russell’s legend was built on winning.

Kreem’s legend was built on accomplishments and having an unstoppable move.

Shaq’s legend is built on dominance.

Kobe’s legend stems from obsessive work ethic.

LeBron’s legend is about longevity and influence.

Jordan’s legend is turning into myth because he had all of the above, at the same time, and it was all based on reality and not hyperbole.

Players wear 23 because of him. Players want their own shoe deal because of him. LeBron throws chalk up before the game because of him, and made Space Jam 2 to follow in his footsteps. After the Last Dance, everyone started to produce their own docu-series. Players have the salaries and endorsements they do because of him. The game went global because of him.

Jordan remains larger than life not only for becoming a brand, but also being the standard that every player since has tried to live up to, emulate, or surpass. No one has yet succeeded.

It’s like what Han Solo was telling Rey and Finn - those stories? All of them? They were all true.

Via: Quora