Why is Michael Jordan generally considered to be the GOAT? What would you say to persuade me to believe he's the best if I don't think so? 🫠

[murksiderock]

2 out of 6

What's the second? I'd you're counting '07 I disagree, a Y4, age 22 player led a team that would struggle to win 20 games without him, to The Finals. He didn't play well in the '07 Finals but that was an All-Time carry job. He was Y4, age 22...

 

[viktordoomsecretwars]

Anyone who thinks athletic prime Lebron is faster than prime Jordan is stupid. You mean MJ of the 80's?

Jordan was clearly faster and had a much faster first step and superior agility. Young Jordan had the quickest 1st step of any player in history. Jordan actually ran 4.38 on the 40m in 1982 and there were a bunch of witnesses there, not some urban legend.

Lebron in 2012 ran 4.6 seconds. Athletic prime Lebron was NOT as fast as athletic prime Jordan.

================================================================================================

Also, Lebron's so called skills as a player are severly lacking. He shoots in the 30% range for his career outside of 3 feet from the basket.

He's always been a horrible midrange shooter and a slightly below average 3 point shooter. How can you been in contention for greatest player when you shoot in the sub-30's for your career outside of 3 feet from the basket?

This is what Marbury was talking about :





Lebron has also played Point Guard/ Point forward for almost all his career and averaged 7 apg. That is just average for a point guard. When Jordan played Point Guard/ Point forward, he averaged much more than 7 apg. Also, players like Doncic have already shown how to do the Lebron James style of play better than Lebron.

If Jordan had played Lebron's position for his entire career, he'll have broken Oscar Robertson's triple double record long before Westbrook broke it.

The truth is Lebron's passing ability is vastly overblown. We've seen Harden, Westbrick, Doncic all copy his style of play and spam assists. Bird was a true Small Forward who played SF and never brought the ball up. He was a better passer than any one of these guys, including Bron. Even Jordan was a better passer than all of them, truth be told. Its just that his 10 scoring titles and insane scoring ability overshadow other aspects of his game.

 

[murksiderock]

If you don't think MJ is the GOAT then you probably not old enough to have seen it live and there's nothing I can tell you.

My friends and I used to say he sold his soul to the devil cause the shyt was magical.

It wasn't just what he did it's the way it unfolded... The way it happened was unreal.

My dad is 58 and doesn't think Michael Jordan is the greatest basketball player ever. Pretty positive he's well older than you

I did time with several old heads, not a ton, but a fair amount of guys my dad's age or older, who definitively didn't think Mike was the greatest player ever. Questioning Mike as GOAT really isn't taboo as cats here think, there's plenty of old heads, just based off older NBA guys (O, Kareem, Laimbeer, Zeke, Dr J, etc), who don't think Mike is the GOAT...

The overwhelming consensus of Mike as GOAT is mainly held by people Mike's age and the generation after Mike. Guys older than Mike tend to either have no consensus GOAT or they will flat out say Mike isn't The One. I was born in '89. What I've noticed is these younger heads born post-late 90s, also have less loyalty to the "Mike is GOAT" narrative that those born between 1960 and 1995 have...

Here's a something to think about:

The six years Mike had the best team I'm basketball, he won the title. The 9 years he didn't, he never even had a Finals appearance. Mike was able to stack chips with the best team in ball but when he didn't have that luxury he couldn't really even raise the team to contention...

What are the years LeBron definitively had the best team in basketball? 2011 and 2013 are the only years that come to mind. Don't say 2020, cats on here still say monthly that the Clippers would've beat them in the playoffs...

It wasn't 2012, OKC and SA were viewed as better going into those playoffs...

It wasn't '09, Boston was the prevailing favorite until Garnett got hurt and the Magic were clearly better, and on the other side the Lakers were dominant. It wasn't '10, again you had Boston, Orlando, and LA...

So in 20 years Bron had the definitive best team what, twice? And went 1-1 in those Finals appearances. Logically let's say he had the best team in ball 6 years like Mike, and he went 3-3...

Bron still won 3 championships when he didn't have the best team in basketball. He'd have a minimum of 6 if he got 6 years with the best team in ball because what we know is he'd win championship(s) in years he doesn't....

This is one of the things I'll never understand about Mike Stans, gassing fam for winning with the best team in ball. Most years there was no close #2 to Chicago. Phoenix in '93 was defensively inferior, nobody thought they'd really best Chicago...

That second Jazz team is the one who gets name as the closest competitor to the Bulls. And that's not some All-Time team even though they won like 64 games...

When Mike didn't have the best team he was heavy on stats and extremely light on contention. I have no clue how thos context gets missed in GOAT debates. Everybody wins with the best team...

 

[Reign X]

people say Miami bron was peak bron. Well 2011 finals exposed a few holes in his game. Then 2013 against spurs, he still had a weakness in trusting his jumper. That bosh board and ray 3 really saved his reputation.

By 2nd Cavs run, he was taking plays off on defense.

Jordan’s peak pre first retirement is higher. Was even shooting 38% from 3, every playoffs of first 3peat.

 

[KidJSoul]

What's the second? I'd you're counting '07 I disagree, a Y4, age 22 player led a team that would struggle to win 20 games without him, to The Finals. He didn't play well in the '07 Finals but that was an All-Time carry job. He was Y4, age 22...

It's half n half

The Spurs gameplan was virtually the same as the one the Mavericks used in 2011

 

[Reign X]

My dad is 58 and doesn't think Michael Jordan is the greatest basketball player ever. Pretty positive he's well older than you

I did time with several old heads, not a ton, but a fair amount of guys my dad's age or older, who definitively didn't think Mike was the greatest player ever. Questioning Mike as GOAT really isn't taboo as cats here think, there's plenty of old heads, just based off older NBA guys (O, Kareem, Laimbeer, Zeke, Dr J, etc), who don't think Mike is the GOAT...

The overwhelming consensus of Mike as GOAT is mainly held by people Mike's age and the generation after Mike. Guys older than Mike tend to either have no consensus GOAT or they will flat out say Mike isn't The One. I was born in '89. What I've noticed is these younger heads born post-late 90s, also have less loyalty to the "Mike is GOAT" narrative that those born between 1960 and 1995 have...

Here's a something to think about:

The six years Mike had the best team I'm basketball, he won the title. The 9 years he didn't, he never even had a Finals appearance. Mike was able to stack chips with the best team in ball but when he didn't have that luxury he couldn't really even raise the team to contention...

What are the years LeBron definitively had the best team in basketball? 2011 and 2013 are the only years that come to mind. Don't say 2020, cats on here still say monthly that the Clippers would've beat them in the playoffs...

It wasn't 2012, OKC and SA were viewed as better going into those playoffs...

It wasn't '09, Boston was the prevailing favorite until Garnett got hurt and the Magic were clearly better, and on the other side the Lakers were dominant. It wasn't '10, again you had Boston, Orlando, and LA...

So in 20 years Bron had the definitive best team what, twice? And went 1-1 in those Finals appearances. Logically let's say he had the best team in ball 6 years like Mike, and he went 3-3...

Bron still won 3 championships when he didn't have the best team in basketball. He'd have a minimum of 6 if he got 6 years with the best team in ball because what we know is he'd win championship(s) in years he doesn't....

This is one of the things I'll never understand about Mike Stans, gassing fam for winning with the best team in ball. Most years there was no close #2 to Chicago. Phoenix in '93 was defensively inferior, nobody thought they'd really best Chicago...

That second Jazz team is the one who gets name as the closest competitor to the Bulls. And that's not some All-Time team even though they won like 64 games...

When Mike didn't have the best team he was heavy on stats and extremely light on contention. I have no clue how thos context gets missed in GOAT debates. Everybody wins with the best team...

He was taking bad boy pistons 6 and 7 games. Lebron was beating Al horford, demar derozan to get to finals. Big difference in competition?

It’s more impressive to you that Lebron got past a weak east and squashed in finals. Then jordan taking eventual bad boy pistons title winners 6 and 7 games, with pippen effectively no showing in both elimination games?

 

[murksiderock]

people say Miami bron was peak bron. Well 2011 finals exposed a few holes in his game. Then 2013 against spurs, he still had a weakness in trusting his jumper. That bosh board and ray 3 really saved his reputation.

By 2nd Cavs run, he was taking plays off on defense.

Jordan’s peak pre first retirement is higher. Was even shooting 38% from 3, every playoffs of first 3peat.

'13 vs Spurs his jumpers in Games 6 and 7 are what saved his career...

Cavs II stint he was having dominant defensive games all over the place, his defense in the '16 Finals is fukking legendary. Mike never hit that level of defense ever, and Mike never combined that defensive dominance with what Bron also did on offense that series...

The last 3 games of the '16 Finals are arguably the greatest 3 consecutive games ever played when accounting fir the stakes and responsibilities Bron was holding. The '16 Finals in general is a better showing than any Mike showing as Bron dismantled an opponent on both sides of the court, that was demonstrably better than any opponent Mike ever met in The Finals or ECF...

 

[murksiderock]

It's half n half

The Spurs gameplan was virtually the same as the one the Mavericks used in 2011

Well this is why 2011 is a fair demerit on his resume, because he was 4 years older with a better team and just a better player than he was in '07. He was supposed to have this solved in 2011...

Agreed on the Spurs gameplan, but Bron was 22, Y4. Mike in Y4 was a Rd2 out, and Mike with '07 Cavs-esque teams was missing the playoffs entirely or struggling to get one W I'm Rd1. Kareem in Y4 was starting his career of many chokes, his 60-win team losing in 5 in Rd1 to a 47-win team, and Kareem with '07 Cavs-esque teams was missing the playoffs consecutive years at his peak...

Nobody else is even getting close to The Finals with that weak ass Cavs team. Its illogical to hold his '07 performance there as why they lost when that team is arguably the worst team in the NBA without him...

He was taking bad boy pistons 6 and 7 games. Lebron was beating Al horford, demar derozan to get to finals. Big difference in competition?

It’s more impressive to you that Lebron got past a weak east and squashed in finals. Then jordan taking eventual bad boy pistons title winners 6 and 7 games, with pippen effectively no showing in both elimination games?

LeBron's first Finals run in '07 he beat a mini-dynastic Pistons squad that played in 6 consecutive ECFs and two Finals...

LeBron's second Finals run he went thru the league MVP on the team with the best record in basketball...

LeBron's third Finals run he went thru a mini-dynastic Celtic team who was in their 3rd ECF in 5 years and had been to two Finals...

I can keep going, yall gotta stop this narrative that Bron never had any competitors out east...

 

[Reign X]

Well this is why 2011 is a fair demerit on his resume, because he was 4 years older with a better team and just a better player than he was in '07. He was supposed to have this solved in 2011...

Agreed on the Spurs gameplan, but Bron was 22, Y4. Mike in Y4 was a Rd2 out, and Mike with '07 Cavs-esque teams was missing the playoffs entirely or struggling to get one W I'm Rd1. Kareem in Y4 was starting his career of many chokes, his 60-win team losing in 5 in Rd1 to a 47-win team, and Kareem with '07 Cavs-esque teams was missing the playoffs consecutive years at his peak...

Nobody else is even getting close to The Finals with that weak ass Cavs team. Its illogical to hold his '07 performance there as why they lost when that team is arguably the worst team in the NBA without him...

LeBron's first Finals run in '07 he beat a mini-dynastic Pistons squad that played in 6 consecutive ECFs and two Finals...

LeBron's second Finals run he went thru the league MVP on the team with the best record in basketball...

LeBron's third Finals run he went thru a mini-dynastic Celtic team who was in their 3rd ECF in 5 years and had been to two Finals...

I can keep going, yall gotta stop this narrative that Bron never had any competitors out east...

Mini dynasty pistons, that lost ben wallace.

2nd and 3rd ones you listed are with him on miami. What are we arguing here. I was pointing out you saying jordan couldn’t get to finals pre 6 years of having best team. While saying bron was dragging teams to finals (guessing you meant 07 and 18?). One year jordan was the only one to win even one game against pistons in playoffs. Next he took them to 7 games, and pippen no showed in elimination game for 2nd year in a row. You think bron with wade and bosh, beating rose is more impressive? Or the Cavs years were he was beating Demar and horford led teams?

- mike with a 07 Cavs team is missing playoffs? Stop it. Cavs team was ranked 4th defensively that year. They lacked a second scorer but team defense was good. Give jordan that type of defense and he’ll have no issue getting to playoffs and winning games.

 

[Reign X]

'13 vs Spurs his jumpers in Games 6 and 7 are what saved his career...

Cavs II stint he was having dominant defensive games all over the place, his defense in the '16 Finals is fukking legendary. Mike never hit that level of defense ever, and Mike never combined that defensive dominance with what Bron also did on offense that series...

The last 3 games of the '16 Finals are arguably the greatest 3 consecutive games ever played when accounting fir the stakes and responsibilities Bron was holding. The '16 Finals in general is a better showing than any Mike showing as Bron dismantled an opponent on both sides of the court, that was demonstrably better than any opponent Mike ever met in The Finals or ECF...

Bron struggled and lacked confidence with his shot for a few games that series. That’s why I said Allen’s 3 saved him or the focus would’ve been on Lebrons struggles with jumper again. No g7 would’ve happened.

 

[Roland Coltrane]

Anyone who thinks athletic prime Lebron is faster than prime Jordan is stupid. You mean MJ of the 80's?

Jordan was clearly faster and had a much faster first step and superior agility. Young Jordan had the quickest 1st step of any player in history. Jordan actually ran 4.38 on the 40m in 1982 and there were a bunch of witnesses there, not some urban legend.

Lebron in 2012 ran 4.6 seconds. Athletic prime Lebron was NOT as fast as athletic prime Jordan.

================================================================================================

Also, Lebron's so called skills as a player are severly lacking. He shoots in the 30% range for his career outside of 3 feet from the basket.

He's always been a horrible midrange shooter and a slightly below average 3 point shooter. How can you been in contention for greatest player when you shoot in the sub-30's for your career outside of 3 feet from the basket?

This is what Marbury was talking about :





Lebron has also played Point Guard/ Point forward for almost all his career and averaged 7 apg. That is just average for a point guard. When Jordan played Point Guard/ Point forward, he averaged much more than 7 apg. Also, players like Doncic have already shown how to do the Lebron James style of play better than Lebron.

If Jordan had played Lebron's position for his entire career, he'll have broken Oscar Robertson's triple double record long before Westbrook broke it.

The truth is Lebron's passing ability is vastly overblown. We've seen Harden, Westbrick, Doncic all copy his style of play and spam assists. Bird was a true Small Forward who played SF and never brought the ball up. He was a better passer than any one of these guys, including Bron. Even Jordan was a better passer than all of them, truth be told. Its just that his 10 scoring titles and insane scoring ability overshadow other aspects of his game.

you came through crushing buildings on these Bron stanleys as usual

these nikkas in the thread furious

 

[Blurneed]

Anyone who thinks athletic prime Lebron is faster than prime Jordan is stupid. You mean MJ of the 80's?

Jordan was clearly faster and had a much faster first step and superior agility. Young Jordan had the quickest 1st step of any player in history. Jordan actually ran 4.38 on the 40m in 1982 and there were a bunch of witnesses there, not some urban legend.

Lebron in 2012 ran 4.6 seconds. Athletic prime Lebron was NOT as fast as athletic prime Jordan.

================================================================================================

Also, Lebron's so called skills as a player are severly lacking. He shoots in the 30% range for his career outside of 3 feet from the basket.

He's always been a horrible midrange shooter and a slightly below average 3 point shooter. How can you been in contention for greatest player when you shoot in the sub-30's for your career outside of 3 feet from the basket?

This is what Marbury was talking about :





Lebron has also played Point Guard/ Point forward for almost all his career and averaged 7 apg. That is just average for a point guard. When Jordan played Point Guard/ Point forward, he averaged much more than 7 apg. Also, players like Doncic have already shown how to do the Lebron James style of play better than Lebron.

If Jordan had played Lebron's position for his entire career, he'll have broken Oscar Robertson's triple double record long before Westbrook broke it.

The truth is Lebron's passing ability is vastly overblown. We've seen Harden, Westbrick, Doncic all copy his style of play and spam assists. Bird was a true Small Forward who played SF and never brought the ball up. He was a better passer than any one of these guys, including Bron. Even Jordan was a better passer than all of them, truth be told. Its just that his 10 scoring titles and insane scoring ability overshadow other aspects of his game.

I agree with everything here except Lebron passing is legit top tier. His IQ one of the highest in history. Did he spam the numbers and those other guys followed the blueprint?, sure. But Lebrons actual passing ability from the eye test standpoint exceeds those other guys. I'd say somebody like CP3 in his prime would be on that level.

 

[fifth column]

My dad is 58 and doesn't think Michael Jordan is the greatest basketball player ever. Pretty positive he's well older than you

I did time with several old heads, not a ton, but a fair amount of guys my dad's age or older, who definitively didn't think Mike was the greatest player ever. Questioning Mike as GOAT really isn't taboo as cats here think, there's plenty of old heads, just based off older NBA guys (O, Kareem, Laimbeer, Zeke, Dr J, etc), who don't think Mike is the GOAT...

The overwhelming consensus of Mike as GOAT is mainly held by people Mike's age and the generation after Mike. Guys older than Mike tend to either have no consensus GOAT or they will flat out say Mike isn't The One. I was born in '89. What I've noticed is these younger heads born post-late 90s, also have less loyalty to the "Mike is GOAT" narrative that those born between 1960 and 1995 have...

Here's a something to think about:

The six years Mike had the best team I'm basketball, he won the title. The 9 years he didn't, he never even had a Finals appearance. Mike was able to stack chips with the best team in ball but when he didn't have that luxury he couldn't really even raise the team to contention...

What are the years LeBron definitively had the best team in basketball? 2011 and 2013 are the only years that come to mind. Don't say 2020, cats on here still say monthly that the Clippers would've beat them in the playoffs...

It wasn't 2012, OKC and SA were viewed as better going into those playoffs...

It wasn't '09, Boston was the prevailing favorite until Garnett got hurt and the Magic were clearly better, and on the other side the Lakers were dominant. It wasn't '10, again you had Boston, Orlando, and LA...

So in 20 years Bron had the definitive best team what, twice? And went 1-1 in those Finals appearances. Logically let's say he had the best team in ball 6 years like Mike, and he went 3-3...

Bron still won 3 championships when he didn't have the best team in basketball. He'd have a minimum of 6 if he got 6 years with the best team in ball because what we know is he'd win championship(s) in years he doesn't....

This is one of the things I'll never understand about Mike Stans, gassing fam for winning with the best team in ball. Most years there was no close #2 to Chicago. Phoenix in '93 was defensively inferior, nobody thought they'd really best Chicago...

That second Jazz team is the one who gets name as the closest competitor to the Bulls. And that's not some All-Time team even though they won like 64 games...

When Mike didn't have the best team he was heavy on stats and extremely light on contention. I have no clue how thos context gets missed in GOAT debates. Everybody wins with the best team...

The Bulls had the best team in the 6 chips based on what measurable metric? You are playing the results. The 2009 and 2010 Cavs won 60+ reg season games but weren’t the best team heading into the playoffs according to your imagination.

Give up breh it’s really not that hard to comprehend, MJ dominated his era better than Lebron dominated this era. Enough with the mental gymnastics.

 

[fifth column]

'13 vs Spurs his jumpers in Games 6 and 7 are what saved his career...

Cavs II stint he was having dominant defensive games all over the place, his defense in the '16 Finals is fukking legendary. Mike never hit that level of defense ever, and Mike never combined that defensive dominance with what Bron also did on offense that series...

The last 3 games of the '16 Finals are arguably the greatest 3 consecutive games ever played when accounting fir the stakes and responsibilities Bron was holding. The '16 Finals in general is a better showing than any Mike showing as Bron dismantled an opponent on both sides of the court, that was demonstrably better than any opponent Mike ever met in The Finals or ECF...

If that’s the case then how did they go down 3-1 in the first place? Mike never allowed a game 7 in the finals, that’s how you dominate the finals

 

[murksiderock]

Mini dynasty pistons, that lost ben wallace.

2nd and 3rd ones you listed are with him on miami. What are we arguing here. I was pointing out you saying jordan couldn’t get to finals pre 6 years of having best team. While saying bron was dragging teams to finals (guessing you meant 07 and 18?). One year jordan was the only one to win even one game against pistons in playoffs. Next he took them to 7 games, and pippen no showed in elimination game for 2nd year in a row. You think bron with wade and bosh, beating rose is more impressive? Or the Cavs years were he was beating Demar and horford led teams?

- mike with a 07 Cavs team is missing playoffs? Stop it. Cavs team was ranked 4th defensively that year. They lacked a second scorer but team defense was good. Give jordan that type of defense and he’ll have no issue getting to playoffs and winning games.

That team that lost Ben Wallace went to another ECF the year after losing to the Cavs, so I wouldn't overstate the loss of Ben Wallace...

I don't understand what you're confused about. Michael Jordan never took any team to The Finals unless he had the best team in basketball. The only teams during those Bulls runs that were even viewed as legitimate threats to them were the '93 Suns and the '98 Jazz. That's it...

The 4 years Bron won the championship, the '12 Bulls, '12 Spurs, '12 Thunder; '16 Warriors, '16 Spurs, '16 Thunder; '20 Bucks, and '20 Clippers, were all seen as teams better than LeBron's team heading into the playoffs, and yet he won the title those years anyway...

2007, 2014, 2015, 2017, and 2018 are years he also didn't have the best team but led teams to the precipice of the LOB anyway. What is there to argue here? Michael Jordan was nowhere near the floor raiser that LeBron was...

My response was a direct correlation to you mentioning the teams Mike beat in the ECF as elite challengers, so I listed elite teams Bron beat in The East en route, since you chose to downplay his opponents as simply DeRozan or Atlanta...

The Bulls had the best team in the 6 chips based on what measurable metric? You are playing the results. The 2009 and 2010 Cavs won 60+ reg season games but weren’t the best team heading into the playoffs according to your imagination.

Give up breh it’s really not that hard to comprehend, MJ dominated his era better than Lebron dominated this era. Enough with the mental gymnastics.

If that’s the case then how did they go down 3-1 in the first place? Mike never allowed a game 7 in the finals, that’s how you dominate the finals

Who were the teams during Jordan's title runs that were viewed as real challengers to the throne?

Mike never went to G7 in The Finals because he got 4 of his Finals vs career choke artists/playoff underachievers (Drexler and the Blazers; Barkley and the Suns; the Stockton/Malone Jazz); 1 of his Finals vs an overachieving formerly great team on its last legs ('91 Lakers); and 1 vs a one hit wonder ('96 Sonics)...

LeBron played 70% of his Finals vs the Warriors and Spurs. Those are 7 opponents better than ANY of the 6 opponents Mike faced. Stop it, bro. We not about to play this game like Mike's opps were like that...

Bruh we don't care that Mike dominated that era, it was one if the weaker historical eras in league history. He wasn't doing that shyt in the 80s and he wouldn't do it in any other era besides possibly the 70s and first half of the 00s. You're not scoring the way you think you are by saying Mike dominated 90s basketball...