Why is Michael Jordan generally considered to be the GOAT? What would you say to persuade me to believe he's the best if I don't think so? ðŸ«
- Thread starter TAYLONDO SAMSWORTHY
- Start date
IsThatBrothaMouzone?
Superstar
If I have a contender-level roster? Give me peak MJ to win us a ring.
If I have a roster that might win 20 games on its own? Give me peak Bron to drag us to respectability.
Basically.....MJ has the better resume and was more reliable in (most) high leverage situation. Bron has more of a Swiss army knife skill set where he can cover more weaknesses in my roster.
Bron is the closest to MJ. Whether he's better or not...who knows. MJ stans only get riled up when talking Bron. No one gets hype over MJ vs Kobe/Wade/Steph debates because those debates don't happen.
Kareem and Wilt just get pushed to the side and all the "6-0" he was clutch shyt gets turned on its head when we talk Russell. Rings matter until they don't?
If I have a roster that might win 20 games on its own? Give me peak Bron to drag us to respectability.
Basically.....MJ has the better resume and was more reliable in (most) high leverage situation. Bron has more of a Swiss army knife skill set where he can cover more weaknesses in my roster.
Bron is the closest to MJ. Whether he's better or not...who knows. MJ stans only get riled up when talking Bron. No one gets hype over MJ vs Kobe/Wade/Steph debates because those debates don't happen.
Kareem and Wilt just get pushed to the side and all the "6-0" he was clutch shyt gets turned on its head when we talk Russell. Rings matter until they don't?
Heavy_Handz
Superstar
It’s because he’s the only one with a complete dikk riding industrial complex behind him , same with Tom Brady in the nfl
Lebron been passed him but the media half hates lebron vs total dikk riding of Jordan
Lebron been passed him but the media half hates lebron vs total dikk riding of Jordan
viktordoomsecretwars
Superstar
Lebron would not have any fans if Jordan played in this era.
The only advantage Lebron has over Jordan is the fact Jordan retired 20 years ago and most Lebron fans that have an opinion about Jordan
(1) Did not watch Jordan play at all
(2) Only watched Jordan play towards the very tale end of his career in the Wizards or the last 3 years in the Bulls
(3) Are too emotionally invested in Lebron to even care to watch Jordan or admit someone else was much better player
The reason nobody gets hype over Kobe/Wade/Steph debates is because none of those players have their own personal agency infiltrating the media , with well placed figure heads there, boosting Lebron at every chance and keeping him relevant (Shannon Sharpe, Kendrick Perkins, Nick Wright) Interestingly, all those 3 names have admitted in the past that Jordan is the best of all time, before they got bought out.
Lebron is not that good and his style of play has been proven to not be championship winning material. Sure, it can be effective in the regular season , when teams are not game planning as much. But in the playoffs, against high IQ teams, Lebron gets found out.
Devaluing your teammates and turning them into spot up shooters camping in the corner while you stockpile cheap assists and rebounds is NOT team basketball.
He had his best success when he played with structure in Miami and had a well defined role, but his tremendous ego and desire to hop from team to team to scavenge championships meant he left the best coach he ever had.
Other players have also copied Lebron's style : Doncic, Westbrook and Harden and did it better. i.e they are greater triple threats than Lebron.
Doncic already for his career averages 27.5ppg /8.6rpg/8.0apg
Another fallacy that surrounds Lebron is that being an army swiss knife as you say is wrongly associated with being a triple threat. Points, rebounds, assists,
But what about the full package? Points, rebounds, assists, steals, blocks, FG%, turnover %, free throw % that ACTUALLY shows who the best all round player is?
Fortunately, we have an all encompassing stat for that: GameScore = Game Score in Basketball Explained
According to GameScore, Jordan has statistically 1/5th or 20/100 of the best NBA games played in the last 50 years.
Lebron is not even close to this. Never mind, he's played in the most watered down era in the last 7 years of his career.
Jordan was not a stat chaser, he was a team player and a winner. Which is why he humbled himself and bought into the stat-limiting Triangle offense. Instead of just going crazy and going for 40 and 50 in every game like he was doing in the 80's.
Sunalmighty
Superstar
yup
IsThatBrothaMouzone?
Superstar
So Bill Russell is GOAT.Lebron would not have any fans if Jordan played in this era.
The only advantage Lebron has over Jordan is the fact Jordan retired 20 years ago and most Lebron fans that have an opinion about Jordan
(1) Did not watch Jordan play at all
(2) Only watched Jordan play towards the very tale end of his career in the Wizards or the last 3 years in the Bulls
(3) Are too emotionally invested in Lebron to even care to watch Jordan or admit someone else was much better player
The reason nobody gets hype over Kobe/Wade/Steph debates is because none of those players have their own personal agency infiltrating the media , with well placed figure heads there, boosting Lebron at every chance and keeping him relevant (Shannon Sharpe, Kendrick Perkins, Nick Wright) Interestingly, all those 3 names have admitted in the past that Jordan is the best of all time, before they got bought out.
Lebron is not that good and his style of play has been proven to not be championship winning material. Sure, it can be effective in the regular season , when teams are not game planning as much. But in the playoffs, against high IQ teams, Lebron gets found out.
Devaluing your teammates and turning them into spot up shooters camping in the corner while you stockpile cheap assists and rebounds is NOT team basketball.
He had his best success when he played with structure in Miami and had a well defined role, but his tremendous ego and desire to hop from team to team to scavenge championships meant he left the best coach he ever had.
Other players have also copied Lebron's style : Doncic, Westbrook and Harden and did it better. i.e they are greater triple threats than Lebron.
Doncic already for his career averages 27.5ppg /8.6rpg/8.0apg
Another fallacy that surrounds Lebron is that being an army swiss knife as you say is wrongly associated with being a triple threat. Points, rebounds, assists,
But what about the full package? Points, rebounds, assists, steals, blocks, FG%, turnover %, free throw % that ACTUALLY shows who the best all round player is?
Fortunately, we have an all encompassing stat for that: GameScore = Game Score in Basketball Explained
According to GameScore, Jordan has statistically 1/5th or 20/100 of the best NBA games played in the last 50 years.
Lebron is not even close to this. Never mind, he's played in the most watered down era in the last 7 years of his career.
Jordan was not a stat chaser, he was a team player and a winner. Which is why he humbled himself and bought into the stat-limiting Triangle offense. Instead of just going crazy and going for 40 and 50 in every game like he was doing in the 80's.
Team player, winner, no ego/humble, a leader on and off the court.....no team jumping and stat chasing like Bron.
No gambling and smashing Madonna like MJ.
I can agree with this
Sunalmighty
Superstar
There is no version of Lebron that is faster than 80's Jordan. This is not even a debatable take. Lebron even as a young player, at 6'9 , 240-260 lb was too big and tall to ever be faster than Jordan was. Remember, Jordan was quite thin in the early 80's and hyper agile.
Lebron was handtimed at 4.6. Even if it wasn't, do you even know how hand timing works? It is very accurate and there is very little differential. There's a reason why some scouts at the combine still hand time 40's as well. Even if it was timed off in 1982, the difference can be no more than ±0.01-0.10, which still trumps Lebron's 4.6
Both Bird and Jordan were better passers than Lebron. When Jordan played Lebron's position in 1988-89, in only his 1st game vs Seattle he had 15 assists:
SuperSonics vs Bulls, March 11, 1989 | Basketball-Reference.com
SEA (88) vs CHI (105). Get the box score, shot charts and play by play summary of the SuperSonics vs Bulls, March 11, 1989.www.basketball-reference.com
In Jordan's 2nd game at point guard, he had 14 assists. 1 week later , he had games of 16 and 17 assists respectively.
Bulls vs Trail Blazers, March 24, 1989 | Basketball-Reference.com
CHI (128) vs POR (113). Get the box score, shot charts and play by play summary of the Bulls vs Trail Blazers, March 24, 1989.
In all of Lebron's career, playing over 1500 games, I think he only went above 17 assists, 1 time in his career.
Lebron Games With 17 Or More Assist Games | StatMuse
LeBron James had 1 game played with 17+ assists against the Pelicans on April 14.www.statmuse.com
Jordan as a point guard averaged
33.8 ppg, 11.2 rpg, 10.3 apg, 3.1 spg, and 0.9 bpg on 51% shooting.
in a 41 game sample size , regular and post season combined in 1988-89, before he reverted back to shooting guard the following season.
Lebron has never had such an insane stretch of statistical output over such a long period of games in his career.
It's not even about box scores. Anyone who watched Jordan systematically dismantle the Knicks from point guard in 1989 for example , knows Jordan could have been the best Point guard ever if that's the only position he played.
Here, he outplays Magic from point guard in only like his 5th game playing Point Guard. 16 assists, easily:
So, as I said, Jordan was just too hyper talented. The problem is most Lebron advocates in general don't know what they're talking about.
There was nothing that has ever existed in basketball Jordan did not do at an A to A+ level other than 3 point shooting. And that didn't stop him from 10 scoring titles. Simply the best and most complete athlete I've ever seen.
Jordan as a point guard averaged
33.8 ppg, 11.2 rpg, 10.3 apg, 3.1 spg, and 0.9 bpg on 51% shooting.
also
folks always overlook Jordans ability to pass the ball which is mind boggling. I never knew that he has the 2nd highest assist per game average in Finals history behind Magic Johnson. he averaged 11 assists pg against the Lakers 91.
Who's your top 5?Lebron would not have any fans if Jordan played in this era.
The only advantage Lebron has over Jordan is the fact Jordan retired 20 years ago and most Lebron fans that have an opinion about Jordan
(1) Did not watch Jordan play at all
(2) Only watched Jordan play towards the very tale end of his career in the Wizards or the last 3 years in the Bulls
(3) Are too emotionally invested in Lebron to even care to watch Jordan or admit someone else was much better player
The reason nobody gets hype over Kobe/Wade/Steph debates is because none of those players have their own personal agency infiltrating the media , with well placed figure heads there, boosting Lebron at every chance and keeping him relevant (Shannon Sharpe, Kendrick Perkins, Nick Wright) Interestingly, all those 3 names have admitted in the past that Jordan is the best of all time, before they got bought out.
Lebron is not that good and his style of play has been proven to not be championship winning material. Sure, it can be effective in the regular season , when teams are not game planning as much. But in the playoffs, against high IQ teams, Lebron gets found out.
Devaluing your teammates and turning them into spot up shooters camping in the corner while you stockpile cheap assists and rebounds is NOT team basketball.
He had his best success when he played with structure in Miami and had a well defined role, but his tremendous ego and desire to hop from team to team to scavenge championships meant he left the best coach he ever had.
Other players have also copied Lebron's style : Doncic, Westbrook and Harden and did it better. i.e they are greater triple threats than Lebron.
Doncic already for his career averages 27.5ppg /8.6rpg/8.0apg
Another fallacy that surrounds Lebron is that being an army swiss knife as you say is wrongly associated with being a triple threat. Points, rebounds, assists,
But what about the full package? Points, rebounds, assists, steals, blocks, FG%, turnover %, free throw % that ACTUALLY shows who the best all round player is?
Fortunately, we have an all encompassing stat for that: GameScore = Game Score in Basketball Explained
According to GameScore, Jordan has statistically 1/5th or 20/100 of the best NBA games played in the last 50 years.
Lebron is not even close to this. Never mind, he's played in the most watered down era in the last 7 years of his career.
Jordan was not a stat chaser, he was a team player and a winner. Which is why he humbled himself and bought into the stat-limiting Triangle offense. Instead of just going crazy and going for 40 and 50 in every game like he was doing in the 80's.
fifth column
Superstar
My common sense IQ is in the upper 99.99999 percentile. I’m not going for the spreadsheet basketball stuff.Your basketball IQ is fukking terrible
fifth column
Superstar
In what aspects of basketball did Lebron pass MJ? It ain’t dominance over era, it ain’t chips, it ain’t advanced metrics, it ain’t average box score stats, it ain’t impact, it ain’t relevance, it ain’t popularity, then what is it? Longevity? Counting numbers based on longevity?
iceberg_is_on_fire
Wearing Lions gear when it wasn't cool
Longevity is the only thing that they have. That said, it's all about the peak that one has achieved and we just feel that no one has eclipsed Michael's peak. The eye test tells me that and the crazy stats back it up.
He was DPOY while scoring 35 a game.
Only player to do this twice. 100 blocks, 200 steals, 300 assists, 300 rebounds in a season. He also lead the league in scoring both seasons too.
He literally did everything and did literally everything just as good if not better than everyone. That's on top of being a freak athlete. A 48 inch vertical in the 80s is the same as a 48 inch vertical now. He would be banging on the heads of these nikka at the rim on a daily basis.
You don’t even know what you just said