Essential The Official ESPN Insider Thread (ESPN+)
- Thread starter the cool
- Start date
Some cats weren't raised right
http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/stor...curry-headlines-list-top-10-floor-spacers-nba
@Skooby
Can you help a breh out?
@Skooby
Can you help a breh out?
NBA's most overrated players
Tom Penn (general manager), George Karl (coach), Amin Elhassan (scouting director), Chad Ford (assistant GM) and Kevin Pelton (analytics director) simulate a conversation that an actual front office might have about particular topics. Today, the group weighs in on the leagues most overrated players. Want in on the conversation? Use #NBAFrontOffice.
Who is the most overrated player in the NBA?
Amin Elhassan: This list is so long. The problem with saying who's the "most overrated" is I'm making an assumption that these are the players whom people hold in the highest regard. So, it might or might not be correct. But I do think there is a culture of deification around Kobe Bryant from fans, and even some younger players.
I'll give you an example: Keith Olbermann was talking about Derek Jeter and said there's a generation of fans -- basically everyone under the age of 35 or so -- this is all they know. When you think about the Yankees winning, you think of Jeter, and they don't know about anyone who came before the early '80s, in the '70s and all the great Yankees of yesteryear. So, I think Bryant, by virtue of being around so long and being a great player throughout his career, that kind of residual affection has lasted way beyond his "expiration date" as a player. And the Los Angeles Lakers? A big reason they are where they are today is because they've never been able to transition Kobe from "this is about me" to "this is about the next generation."
Look at Tim Duncan; that's what sets him apart. He understood at some point that "if I'm going to continue to be the best player of this team, we are limiting the potential of this team. This has to be Tony Parker's team, and I have to be his sidekick." Kobe has never come to grips with that. So when Dwight Howard leaves via free agency, instead of saying "Wow, we're really in trouble in the next couple of years," the Lakers said "good riddance Howard, our savior, our Superman [Kobe] will take us home." I can't think of another player in the league besides Bryant who has that kind of fanatical love and devotion and this belief that he can overcome anything.
Tom Penn: And he does have the highest contract in the league the next two years, the No. 1 contract. As you factor that in.
George Karl: Can we give the most overrated player in the league to last year's NBA draft? I saw those guys play this summer, and I didn't see any superstars or All-Stars ...
(laughter)
Chad Ford: I think when we're talking about overrated, we're just talking about general perception of fans, perhaps. I think we overrate offense a bit with players who can't play defense.
So I think James Harden is a little overrated. I don't think he makes an effort on the defensive end, and I think basketball is played on both ends of the court. And I'll put Kyrie Irving in that group; Irving ranked 35th among point guards in real plus-minus last season. Thirty-fifth. The only point guard who was worse than Kyrie Irving last season was Jose Calderon. And I think if we're talking about the Cavs being a championship-contender team, their point guard is going to have to play some defense. Obviously those are two dynamic offensive players, and when you look at their PER scores and other metrics, they look great, and we know they can put the ball in the basket.
But I'm not ready to anoint Harden or Irving as superstars until they make a passable effort on the defensive end. They don't have to be superstars defensively, but I don't even think there's a passable effort with those two players at the moment.
Penn: For me, it's Harden's teammate, Howard. I get it: He's a prolific defensive player, great individual performer, one of the best centers in the game and his talent is undeniable. But the sequence of behavior and decisions, going back to the first chance to opt out in Orlando then opt back in, then the drama that went with it, the trip to the Lakers, the exit from the Lakers, etc. We're talking perennial first-team All-NBA player, but can you really win with him? Can you really win it all with him as your leader? It's a really big question. He has step up and say, "I want to be the go-to guy down the stretch." But he has a complete inability to shoot free throws or convert from the block. Compare that to a guy like Joakim Noah, who's a completely different player but who's slowly evolved in substance and championship-caliber "oomph" -- he's just got it, right? Noah had it going back to college at Florida. So I think Howard is the one who's got a lot to prove this season.
Karl: Piggybacking off that, in my opinion, the most overrated position in the game of basketball today is the center position. It's also one of the most overpaid positions. Executives have constantly had this mystique that you win championships because of big men. And the big man, over the past five to 10 years, his importance his disintegrated. And the teams who play big guys -- like Howard or Greg Monroe or Tyson Chandler or even if you want to throw in Chris Bosh -- you struggle a little bit trying to find the big man's importance. Even when you're successful, you struggle to figure out, "Is he as important as we pay him to be?" And so I think the most overrated position in the NBA is center, and it's overpaid.
Penn: Who would you say the most overrated center is?
Karl: I mean, you can name them: Howard would be on that list, but, c'mon, you could put a lot of the guys on that list. That list could be like 15 guys. Roy Hibbert. Monroe. It's just a tough position for coaches, I think it's a tough position for executives and I think right now the agents are kicking [butt] and making a lot of money on what happened 10 years ago -- not what's happening in the game of basketball.
Elhassan: The one thing I'll push back on is the importance of the big man as a defensive anchor. I think a good defensive big man can have a much larger impact than a good defensive wing. He can subsidize poor defenders on his roster. So I think that's why defensive bigs like Chandler, Hibbert, and, even though I think his impact is overstated, Noah -- that's what makes them special, and even Howard as well. It makes them special that they can cover some of the shortcomings of their teammates. But guys like Monroe, I agree with you. He's probably going to get paid a pretty penny next summer because he's 6-foot-11 and scores around 18 PPG. And I'm not particularly sure why that matters.
Karl: You are correct about the defensive center. But all the good defensive centers want to become good offensive centers. They don't want to stay defensive centers; the only guy who wants to stay a defensive center is Noah. I mean, Hibbert, where'd he go? He was a great defensive player two years ago. Where'd he go last year? Howard can be the most dominating defensive center in the game, but is he? The answer is no.
Penn: Kevin, who do the numbers say is the most overrated?
Kevin Pelton: Well, the guy I'm going to single out -- though it's no fault of his own -- is Rajon Rondo. He's coming off the torn ACL he suffered two seasons ago, came back midway through last season and was only a slightly above-average player, statistically, after he got back on the court. And I think there are legitimate questions about whether he lost a bit of athleticism following that surgery. Is he going to be the same player because of the fact that he was so dependent on that athleticism to be such a force at both ends of the court?
Obviously, he's not doing it because of his shooting ability; he shot more 3s last season but made just 29 percent of them. He was a really inefficient scorer, much more so than in seasons past. Now, maybe this season he'll be healthier and back to the same Rondo we knew as an All-Star. But until we see that, it's a little dangerous for people to assume he's going to be that kind of player, especially if they project him as a max-type guy for next summer's free agency.
Penn: How much do you think circumstance plays into that? Because the longer he's there and not traded, and not into it, I can't imagine him performing at a high level.
Pelton: Right, there are some statistics to back up the whole national TV Rondo thing, that he plays his best when the spotlight is the brightest. There was not a lot of spotlight last season in Boston and won't be this season, either.
Biggest storylines of the season
What a season we are in for. I get excited about every NBA season, but 2014-15 will go down as one of the most anticipated seasons in recent history.
There's a new Big Three aiming to bring the city of Cleveland its first major sports title since Jim Brown was in his prime; a former MVP returning from knee injuries to play essentially for the first time in three years; and another former MVP (and five-time champion) dusting off the cobwebs to prove his detractors and Father Time' wrong.
That's just scratching the surface.
I asked a few NBA types to comment on five of the most intriguing storylines of the season. Here's what they said:
LeBron James and the Cleveland Cavaliers
Eastern Conference scout: "Those three guys -- LeBron James, Kevin Love and Kyrie Irving -- are really legitimate top players. Obviously, LeBron is the best player, but they might all be top 10 players. I'm a big Kyrie Irving fan. He's extremely, extremely talented. He has the talent to be the best point guard in the league. I think he's got the best left hand of any point guard in the league ... He can do anything with it -- shoot, pass. He's done a lot of losing, but I think LeBron will come in and change that culture.
"With their talent and LeBron's direction, they'll come together pretty quickly. LeBron will tell them: 'This is how we win.' They're my favorite. Chicago will be really good and challenge them, but you just don't beat LeBron in the prime of his career; not with that kind of talent around him. I think they can win it all this year.
"Sooner or later, the San Antonio Spurs are going to show their age -- maybe they'll have an injury here or there. I think this Cleveland team is better than LeBron's Miami team last year. They had an aging Wade; Wade really was on the downside. They didn't have good point guard play. LeBron had to do everything. I don't think he has to do as much in Cleveland as he had to do in Miami last year. LeBron was the best rebounder in Miami. Now, he has the best rebounder in the league in Love, plus [Anderson] Varejao and Tristan Thompson, who are very good rebounders. LeBron doesn't have to do everything."
Eastern Conference assistant coach: "Obviously, the focus is on the three main guys, but people are forgetting how good Anderson Varejao is. That dude is pretty good. I think people underrate how good he plays in the post defensively, how good he can play away from the ball -- just with cutting and moving and spacing the floor -- and he's got an improved midrange shot. He just gets it.
"I think Tristan Thompson has improved, too. But obviously it's about the three stars. One guy who offensively is trying to find his way is Kevin Love -- where his shots could come from, when he can go, things like that. They've featured him in the post a little bit in the preseason, but that's not how he's scored most of his points. He's usually on that pinch post or running the pick-and-pop. But now it's tough because LeBron and Kyrie Irving are always at the top of the floor, so that takes away some of his offensive looks. I don't doubt that he'll find his way, but you can see that right now he's just trying to figure it out. When they're in a really tough game, he's going to have to figure out where he can score.
"The other two guys will score in transition. The lack of playoff experience for Kyrie and Love won't affect them on the offensive end because they're so good. They cause so many problems for teams on that end. I mean, what do you do with a 1-3 pick-and-roll with Kyrie and LeBron? Offensively, they're a b----. I don' t know how you stop them. Imagine Love and LeBron in the pick-and-roll. They really run, too. Love has just been throwing the ball long and getting it into the frontcourt fast, just to keep an up-tempo pace. In the playoffs, it'll be interesting because that's when the game slows down."
Eastern Conference executive: "I like Chicago better than Cleveland in the East because it takes time to jell. LeBron and Varejao are the only ones who have playoff experience. Cleveland has a sexy lineup, a lot of names and stars, but you've got to win 12 games to get to the Finals. In a grind-out series, Love has to show me something. I want to see Kyrie defend in a seven-game series. I'm not sure that defense is in his DNA. He's going to have to get his heart broken first. He's got to be disappointed before he's all the way there. LeBron knows what it takes to get to the Finals. He knows what kind of a grind it takes, and he knows his guys haven't been through that yet. Could they have the best record in the East? Yes. But if Derrick Rose is healthy, I think Chicago's got too much."
What I think will happen: Cavs over Oklahoma City for the NBA title.
Derrick Rose and the Chicago Bulls
Eastern Conference assistant coach: "You can see Rose is gradually getting better and better every day. One thing I see different about him in the preseason is that he used to play in short bursts. In the half court, he'd go from slow to real fast. But now he'll take the ball out, throw it to whoever's closest to him, gets it back and then blast up court. Now, I think he has a more cerebral approach to the game. His game still has everything that was there before. He's not quite there yet, but he'll get there."
What I think will happen: D Rose will return to his All-Star form. But the Bulls will lose to the Cavaliers in the Eastern Conference finals.
Oklahoma City Thunder without Kevin Durant
Eastern Conference assistant coach: "They'll be good without Durant. They still have a large part of their nucleus. I think losing Thabo Sefolosha is going to hurt them because he could always guard the opponent's great offensive player. But without him -- if Russell Westbrook gets into foul trouble, what now? Westbrook will play well without Durant. He's just so dominant. I don't particularly like the way he plays, but he's so good. You talk about Derrick Rose driving to the basket, well, Westbrook's two inches taller and just as, maybe even more, athletic. I've heard some say that playing without Durant will help their other players, but I don't think so because of the way Westbrook plays. He's like, 'I'm going to dominate you.' If you put Chris Paul on that team, yeah, Chris Paul is going to make Jeremy Lamb and Steven Adams better because he just gives guys confidence and puts them in position to score. But Westbrook is not like that."
Eastern Conference scout: "I think they're middle of the pack without Durant. There are just too many other good teams out West. Westbrook, with or without Durant, all he wants to do is shoot it. He has a scorer's mentality. He's a tremendous athlete, the second-best athlete in the league next to LeBron. He's just not a point guard. He could be the leading scorer in the league until Durant gets back because he's going to take a lot of shots. I don't think losing Durant for the start of the season will necessarily keep them from winning the West. I think they'll still win enough games and keep the ship afloat until he gets back. They'll win more than they lose while he's out."
What I think will happen: The Thunder will be a few games over .500 without KD, and Westbrook will average 25 PPG in his absence.
Kobe Bryant's game
Eastern Conference executive: "The Lakers aren't going to win, even if Kobe averages 30. He just doesn't have enough help around him. Kobe's obviously lost a step or two. He looks healthy, but he's not the same. He appears to have taken some of the violent twists and turns out of his game, which is smart. The thing that can help him is that he can play out of the post. All that dancing with the ball up top, beating people night-in, night-out from 20 feet out? He ain't doing that no more.
"I wouldn't have him ranked 40th like ESPN. That's too big of a drop. He'll still be good enough to make an All-Star team. He's not a top 10 player anymore, [but] I'd have him in the top 20-25 because of his makeup alone. You don't have dudes who are cut like him in the league anymore, so on makeup alone, he's still going to be tough to deal with.
"There are only two 2-guards in the West I'd take ahead of Kobe right now -- Klay Thompson and James Harden. In the East, I'd maybe take Bradley Beal and DeMar DeRozan. So at the end of the day, he's still a top-5 2-guard. But he knows he ain't playing for a championship with that team. He's playing to pass Michael Jordan in total points and to show everybody, 'I'm not No. 40.'
Eastern Conference assistant coach: "I'm in total agreement with those who say Kobe's done. Look, you could put any high-level 2-guard on a bad team, let him jack up shots and get 20 points a night. So Kobe will be able to do that. But they ain't going to win. We don't judge Kobe off scoring 20 points a game. We judge him off dominance, off: 'Will they win 50 games, will they make the playoffs?' But now, we're not even talking about any of that. I'm not saying he can't play anymore. That's not what we're talking about.
"It's like Michael Jordan in Washington. I, for one, didn't want to see Michael's last tour with Washington. Nobody did. When the Lakers play Philly and other low-level teams, Kobe will do whatever he wants. But when he plays good teams and gets doubled? That's when we'll see that he's not the same player."
Eastern Conference scout: "They're an awful team. That's No. 1. I think Kobe has only one agenda -- that's to be the all-time leading scorer. So he's going to shoot it every time he gets his hands on the ball. He's won his championships. He's not going to win any more. But he could win a scoring title because he's going to take so many shots."
What I think will happen: Kobe will average 21 PPG, 42 or 43 percent shooting; Lakers will win fewer than 35 games.
Is Anthony Davis the NBA's best power forward?
Eastern Conference scout: "I personally think that before his career is over, he'll be the MVP of the league one season. He's got it all. If he can just stay healthy for a year. He gets physically more imposing each year -- his skills are really good, he's got great length. He's one of the top players in the league right now. He's got the whole package. And he looks like he likes playing defense -- he can protect the rim, he's always looking to run off his man and block a shot, he can post up, he has a jump shot.
Eastern Conference executive: "I want to see his play translate into some winning. He's got all the tools. He's long, he's got a little touch, he looks the part. But I'm not ready to anoint him yet because he hasn't impacted winning. The top two power forwards to me are LaMarcus Aldridge andBlake Griffin. Anthony Davis has a much greater ability to affect the game on the defensive end than those guys, though. Should Davis become the best power forward in the league? Yes. But he's got to go get it first.
"If he's all that, then I don't want to hear that you can't get your team into the playoffs. Carmelo Anthony led his team to the playoffs every year he was in the league until last year. That Denver team he went to won 17 games before he got there and went to the playoffs his rookie year. Show me that you can win, then I'll start putting you in high places. Davis has to show me that he can win with what he's got around him."
Eastern Conference assistant coach: "Eventually, he will be the best. The way he runs the court and blocks shots is crazy. I don't know who to compare him to. He's 7-feet but runs the floor like Alex English. Then, he's got a jumper, he can pick-and-pop, he's a crazy weakside defender. I don't know who to compare him to."
What I think will happen: This season's top-5 point forwards: 1. Blake Griffin; 2. Kevin Love; 3. LaMarcus Aldridge; 4. Anthony Davis; 5. Tim Duncan.
Never went no where.
Yea, I just haven't been posting much.
Konnan
Undisputed Jack in the Box Parking Lot Champion
can I get this please brehs?
http://insider.espn.go.com/fantasy/...-basketball-2014-15-insider-draft-cheat-sheet
http://insider.espn.go.com/fantasy/...-basketball-2014-15-insider-draft-cheat-sheet