THE LANGUAGE OF GOD (Good Lecture)

[Koichos]

im saying you need to believe in both. Not that you need to do both for atonement

What would happen if a Jewish person offered sacrifices and prayed for forgiveness but did it as a ritual or religious tradition and really didn’t even believe in God or live life trying to follow laws?

I don't understand your question, because who/what would he be making offerings to/repenting for if he didn't believe in God or His laws?

So what does the “kingdom of God” mean in Judaism. If someone asked you to define that in Jewish terms what would you say?

Jews do not talk about the 'kingdom of God' because it does not exist except in a poetic sense. We do, however, refer to Him as מֶֶֽלֶֶֶֶךְְ הָָָָעוֹֹלָָָָם melech haˁοlam (the 'King of the Universe') in our prayers; but the phrase 'kingdom of God' does not occur even once in the Tοrah or the Nach and is only found rarely and indirectly in our prayers, for example in poetic passages such as ˁAleinu l'shabbe'aħ (one of the oldest passages in our formal prayer-liturgy, whose composition is attributed to Mοsheh’s successor, Y'hοshuˁa bin Nun):

We therefore hope for you, Hashem our God, to see quickly the splendor of Your strength, when You sweep away idols from the Earth and the false gods are completely excised; when the World is perfected under the Almighty's Kingdom and all living people will call upon Your Name, when You turn to Yourself all the wicked of the Earth...

וְְעַַל־כֵֵּן נְְקַַוֶֶֶּה לְְךָָ יְְיָָָָ אֱֱֱֱלֹֹקֵֵֽינוּ לִִרְְאוֹֹת מְְהֵֵרָָָָה בְְּתִִפְְאֶֶֽרֶֶֶֶֶת עֻֻֻֻזֶֶּֽךָָ לְְהַַעֲֲֲֲבִִיר גִִּלּוּלִִים מִִן־הָָָָאָָֽרֶֶֶֶץ וְְהָָָָאֱֱֱֱלִִילִִים כָָָָּרוֹֹת יִִכָָָָּרֵֵתוּן לְְתַַקֵֵּן עוֹֹלָָָָם בְְּמַַלְְכוּת שַַׁקַַּי וְְכׇׇׇׇל־בְְּנֵֵי־בָָָָשָָָָׂר יִִקְְרְְאוּ בִִשְְׁמֶֶֽךָָ לְְהַַפְְנוֹֹת אֵֵלֶֶֽיךָָ כׇׇׇׇּל־רִִשְְׁעֵֵי אָָֽרֶֶֶֶץ​

What is the concept close to being “born again” called in Hebrew?

Perhaps the closest in Hebrew would be the principle גֵֵּר שֶֶֶׁנִִּתְְגַַּיֵֵּר כְְּקָָָטָָָן שֶֶֶׁנּוֹֹלָָָד דָָָּמֵֵי 'a ger who has been converted is like a newborn infant', relating to converts to Judaism—but it nonetheless only refers to being 'like' a newborn infant (and in specific, named contexts).

 

[DoubleClutch]

I don't understand your question, because who/what would he be making offerings to/repenting for if he didn't believe in God or His laws?

Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved

How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15 And how can anyone preach unless they are sent?

Exactly my point. The question doesn’t even makes sense to you because you know what you believe in.

I’m saying the faith behind it is ultimately more important than the works/act of sacrifices.

 

[DoubleClutch]

Interesting perspective on the Old Testament

I think I’ve already discussed this idea with @MMS and others in that old “biblical curses of Egypt” thread but this guy breaks it down clear.

It might still go over some peoples heads though as the problem back then still exists today. A lot of idol worship going on thinking they’re worshiping “the GOD”

I wonder if @Koichos agrees with this perspective on the “divine council”

Or maybe it’s a topic too deep for the Coli

 

[MMS]

Interesting perspective on the Old Testament

I think I’ve already discussed this idea with @MMS and others in that old “biblical curses of Egypt” thread but this guy breaks it down clear.

It might still go over some peoples heads though as the problem back then still exists today. A lot of idol worship going on thinking they’re worshiping “the GOD”

I wonder if @Koichos agrees with this perspective on the “divine council”

Or maybe it’s a topic too deep for the Coli

the names are like cattle

remember, when Jacob fled from Laban, Rachel hid the icons of "his Gods" under her saddle etc...

this is why Jews are so adamant on the protection of the name and not to use it frivolously as the "cattle" are.

Something that ive wondered...is the english, latin, greek transliterations of the name like cattle of the hebrew "name"

 

[Koichos]

Interesting perspective on the Old Testament

I think I’ve already discussed this idea with @MMS and others in that old “biblical curses of Egypt” thread but this guy breaks it down clear.

It might still go over some peoples heads though as the problem back then still exists today. A lot of idol worship going on thinking they’re worshiping “the GOD”

I wonder if @Koichos agrees with this perspective on the “divine council”

Or maybe it’s a topic too deep for the Coli

The page is blank for me.

 

[DoubleClutch]

The page is blank for me.

You mean the Instagram link i posted doesn’t work if you click it? Or you don’t see the post at all?

 

[Koichos]

You mean the Instagram link i posted doesn’t work if you click it? Or you don’t see the post at all?

I see a blank page that says 'the link to this photo or video may be broken, or the post may have been removed'. What did it say?

 

[DoubleClutch]

I see a blank page that says 'the link to this photo or video may be broken, or the post may have been removed'. What did it say?

You just need to click on the blue “visit Instagram” link and open it in Instagram.

Sometimes Instagram/YouTube posts on here don’t work directly I don’t know why. It usually works with sports or Drake related content when I post links in other threads lol

See:



Bar mitzvahs sure look fun these days

 

[DoubleClutch]

Interesting explanation. @Koichos is this correct?

 

[Koichos]

Interesting explanation. @Koichos is this correct?

Yes, the second guy is correct: אֱלֹהִִים is plural in form even though it is usually singular in meaning. One can always tell in Hebrew whether a noun is singular or plural because its verb must 'agree' with it in number (singular/plural) and gender (masculine/feminine).

Consider the phrase וַַיֹֹּֽאמֶֶֶר אֱֱלֹֹהִִים ('and God said'), in which a Hebrew speaker can tell at once that אֱֱלֹֹהִִים is singular because the verb וַַיֹֹּֽאמֶֶֶר is a singular form ('and he said') and cannot be used with a plural subject; the plural form would be וַַיֹֹּֽאמְְרוּ ('and they said').

אֱֱלֹֹהִִים is often used as a title for the Creator, but not always. It can have a number of different meanings:

i. God (the One Creator);
ii. gods (i.e., false ones/idols) worshiped by others;
iii. judges;
iv. mighty and powerful rulers.

In cases ii, iii and iv, this word is a plural noun (and will be qualified by a plural adjective/pronoun/verb); but, uniquely,
in case i it is a singular proper noun (and will be qualified by a singular adjective/pronoun/verb).

For example, in the Creation Chapter the noun אֱֱלֹֹהִִים is invariably the subject of singular conjugation forms:

verse 3: וַַיֹֹּֽאמֶֶֶר ('and he said');
verse 4: וַַיַַּֽרְְא ('and he saw'),
verse 4: וַַיַַּבְְדֵֵּל ('and he separated');
verse 5: וַַיִִּקְְרָָא ('and he called');
verse 6: וַַיֹֹּֽאמֶֶר ('and he said');
verse 7: וַיַַּֽעַַשׂ ('and he made');
verse 17: וַַיִִּתֵֵּן ('and he placed');
verse 22: וַַיְְבָָֽרֶֶךְְ ('and he blessed');
verse 27: וַַיִִּבְְרָָא ('and he created');
verse 28: וַַיְְבָָֽרֶֶךְְ ('and he blessed').

The corresponding plural forms would be וַַיֹֹּֽאמְְרוּ ('and they said'); וַַיִִּרְְאוּ ('and they saw'), וַַיַַּבְְדִִּֽילוּ ('and they separated'); וַַיִִּקְְרְְאוּ ('and they called'); וַַיַַּֽעֲֲֲשׂוּ ('and they made'); וַַיִִּתְְּנוּ ('and they placed'); וַַיִִּבְְרְְאוּ ('and they created'); וַַיְְבָָֽרְְכוּ ('and they blessed').

 

[DoubleClutch]

Yes, the second guy is correct: אֱלֹהִִים is plural in form even though it is usually singular in meaning. One can always tell in Hebrew whether a noun is singular or plural because its verb must 'agree' with it in number (singular/plural) and gender (masculine/feminine).

Consider the phrase וַַיֹֹּֽאמֶֶֶר אֱֱלֹֹהִִים ('and God said'), in which a Hebrew speaker can tell at once that אֱֱלֹֹהִִים is singular because the verb וַַיֹֹּֽאמֶֶֶר is a singular form ('and he said') and cannot be used with a plural subject; the plural form would be וַַיֹֹּֽאמְְרוּ ('and they said').

אֱֱלֹֹהִִים is often used as a title for the Creator, but not always. It can have a number of different meanings:

In cases ii, iii and iv, this word is a plural noun (and will be qualified by a plural adjective/pronoun/verb); but, uniquely,
in case i it is a singular proper noun (and will be qualified by a singular adjective/pronoun/verb).

For example, in the Creation Chapter the noun אֱֱלֹֹהִִים is invariably the subject of singular conjugation forms:

The corresponding plural forms would be וַַיֹֹּֽאמְְרוּ ('and they said'); וַַיִִּרְְאוּ ('and they saw'), וַַיַַּבְְדִִּֽילוּ ('and they separated'); וַַיִִּקְְרְְאוּ ('and they called'); וַַיַַּֽעֲֲֲשׂוּ ('and they made'); וַַיִִּתְְּנוּ ('and they placed'); וַַיִִּבְְרְְאוּ ('and they created'); וַַיְְבָָֽרְְכוּ ('and they blessed').

Interesting.

So is “Lord” or Adonai as it’s used in replacing God ever in plural form in Hebrew?

And does any other language have this type of singular/plural effect for God?

For example in Arabic is the translation a plural or singular

I know in the Quran “Allah” often refers to himself is “we”. Is this an example of a “plural singular” influence from Hebrew in effect or something else?

Or is it a result of translation to English? And does that automatically mean it’s to be understood as one of the below:

ii. gods (i.e., false ones/idols) worshiped by others;
iii. judges;
iv. mighty and powerful rulers.

If God/Elohim is such an ambiguous word depending on what follows it, does having an actual “NAME” clear up any doubts between what level of “God” it is?

Because there can only be 1 creator God, just like there’s only one “ @Koichos ” in these forums for example

 

[Koichos]

Interesting.

So is “Lord” or Adonai as it’s used in replacing God ever in plural form in Hebrew?

No, אֲֲֲֲדֹֹנָָָָי is invariably identified as singular by the use of singular verbs, and is used exclusively for addressing God (in prayer).

And does any other language have this type of singular/plural effect for God?

For example in Arabic is the translation a plural or singular

In Judaeo-Arabic אַלַּהּ allah, which is singular in both form and meaning, is used for translating God's Hebrew titles.

I know in the Quran “Allah” often refers to himself is “we”. Is this an example of a “plural singular” influence from Hebrew in effect or something else?

Or is it a result of translation to English? And does that automatically mean it’s to be understood as one of the below:

No, that is indicative of majesty (also known as 'royal we'). Plural forms can be used to denote a position of authority.

If God/Elohim is such an ambiguous word depending on what follows it, does having an actual “NAME” clear up any doubts between what level of “God” it is?

Because there can only be 1 creator God, just like there’s only one “ @Koichos ” in these forums for example

God is unique, the Only One of His 'Kind', so He does not need a 'Name' to distinguish Him from any 'other' (only 'designations' where He features in the narrative due to the limitations of human language). But we, humans, need names to distinguish us from one another.

And there is no ambiguity at all here. On the contrary; it is even more obvious in Hebrew, which has a full conjugation (with different forms for first, second and third person; singular and plural; masculine and feminine) compared with English's deficient conjugations.

 

[DoubleClutch]

No, אֲֲֲֲדֹֹנָָָָי is invariably identified as singular by the use of singular verbs, and is used exclusively for addressing God (in prayer).


In Judaeo-Arabic אַלַּהּ allah, which is singular in both form and meaning, is used for translating God's Hebrew titles.


No, that is indicative of majesty (also known as 'royal we'). Plural forms can be used to denote a position of authority.


God is unique, the Only One of His 'Kind', so He does not need a 'Name' to distinguish Him from any 'other' (only 'designations' where He features in the narrative due to the limitations of human language). But we, humans, need names to distinguish us from one another.

And there is no ambiguity at all here. On the contrary; it is even more obvious in Hebrew, which has a full conjugation (with different forms for first, second and third person; singular and plural; masculine and feminine) compared with English's deficient conjugations.

God is unique from your perspective but if you’re trying to explain the God you believe in from the deities or God of a non Jew for example you’d probably need to use a name

If God revealed himself to you by a unique “name” which you hold tradition of, it would be a step backwards to tell someone God is “the only one of his kind” because the only important thing about God can’t simply be that he is “one”. That’s just surface level understanding and should be a given to most

It would defeat the purpose of any prior experience or traditions about this “God” (assuming you have the oldest record) and go backwards essentially to a time when people DIDNT know GOD

And then what would be the point of the Torah to Jews or even Jesus to Christians?

If God is meant to be simple, unimaginable and nameless, why even exist?

And that’s the problem. We need to know God for even God to have a purpose. (I learned that from listening to a rabbi)

Names dont matter I guess if you believe in the notion of “1 God by many names” but to say “1 God with NO name or distinct identity” or an “unknown God” is even worse.

In that case you could say “the God Egyptians called RA is Yahweh” or everything is God.

Or you could do like Muhammad and announce all the Arab pagan gods to be encompassed under ONE GOD under the umbrella term “ALLAH” which isn’t as much of a name as it is an ambiguous title like “Lord” in Judaism

Can you give an example of allah, being “used for translating God's Hebrew titles.”

Maybe you have seen a Torah written in Arabic?

 

[Koichos]

God is unique from your perspective but if you’re trying to explain the God you believe in from the deities or God of a non Jew for example you’d probably need to use a name

If God revealed himself to you by a unique “name” which you hold tradition of, it would be a step backwards to tell someone God is “the only one of his kind” and is “nameless” or “unimaginable” or

It would defeat the purpose of any prior experience or traditions about this “God” (assuming you have the oldest record) and go backwards essentially to

This doesn’t matter I guess if you believe in the notion of “1 God by many names” I guess but to say “1 God with NO name or distinct identity” or an unknown God is even worse.

In that case you could say “the God Egyptians called RA is Yahweh”

Or you could go further to announce all the Arab pagan gods to be encompassed under ONE idea of GOD under the umbrella term “ALLAH” which isn’t as much of a name as it is an ambiguous title like “Lord” in Judaism

Can you give an example of allah, being “used for translating God's Hebrew titles.”

Maybe you have seen a Torah written in Arabic?

Yes, I own a copy of the Torah with Rabbenu Sa'adyah Ga'on’s Judaeo-Arabic translation alongside the original Hebrew and Aramaic.

Here are the first two verses of the Torah (B'reshyt 1:1-2), where both instances of אֱֱלֹֹהִִים are translated by אַללַּה:​

Here is B'reshyt 18:26-17, where both the Explicit Name and אֲֲֲֲדֹֹנָָָָי are translated by אַללַּה:​

And here is Sh'mοt 19:3 (part of tonight's reading for Shavu'ot), where both הָאֱֱלֹֹהִִים and the Explicit Name are translated by אַללַּה:​

​

 

[DoubleClutch]

Yes, I own a copy of the Torah with Rabbenu Sa'adyah Ga'on’s Judaeo-Arabic translation alongside the original Hebrew and Aramaic.

Here are the first two verses of the Torah (B'reshyt 1:1-2), where both instances of אֱֱלֹֹהִִים are translated by אַללַּה:


Here is B'reshyt 18:26-17, where both the Explicit Name and אֲֲֲֲדֹֹנָָָָי are translated by אַללַּה:


And here is Sh'mοt 19:3 (part of tonight's reading for Shavu'ot), where both הָאֱֱלֹֹהִִים and the Explicit Name are translated by אַללַּה:


​

So these are “Arab” Jews?

When they say “Allah” means “lord” as in Adonai/ אֲֲֲֲדֹֹנָָָָי ?