THE LANGUAGE OF GOD (Good Lecture)

[Koichos]

you must have missed it the first time

Genesis 21:9-14



Genesis 22:1-17



is Ishmael the firstborn son of Abraham? and if not who?

https://www.thecoli.com/threads/can-any-christian-jew-explain-this.984023/page-14#post-49855616

Yitz'ħaḳ was the 'only son' of his mother (Yishmaˁel was a half-sibling), through which Avraham’s legacy would continue. Consequently there is no record of anyone other than a descendant of Avraham through Yitz'ħaḳ and Yaˁaḳov ever being referred to by the term עִִבְרִי ˁivri ('Hebrew'). The patronym עִִבְרִי ˁivri was limited to Avra(ha)m, his son Yitz'ħaḳ and grandson Yaˁaḳov, and Yaˁaḳov’s descendants.

The promises God made to Avraham were limited specifically to his ‘zerraˁ’, a term that He defined in B'reshyt 21:12 as

בְְיִִצְְחָ֔ק יִִקָּרֵ֥א לְְךָ֖ זָֽרַַע׃...​

...[your descendants] through Yitz'ħaḳ will be considered your ‘zerraˁ’.

—the totality of his descendants for all time (through Yitz'ħaḳ and Yaˁaḳov), considered together as a group, i.e., Yisra'el.

------------​

In short, both Yitz'ħaḳ and Yishmaˁel were 'only sons' of their respective mothers, but through Yitz'ħaḳ alone were these promises made.

 

[DoubleClutch]

i. God does not say זְְבָָָחֵֵֽהוּ z'vaħehu ('sacrifice him') or שְְׁחָָָטֵֵֽהוּ sh'ħaṭehu ('slaughter him'), but הַַעֲֲֲלֵֵֽהוּ haˁalehu ('take him up'); and
ii. as you yourself acknowledge, and as Parashat ‘Vayyera’ 22:1 explicitly states (refer also to 22:12), God נִִסָָָּה nissah ('tested him').

In fact, Avraham knew Yitz'ħaḳ would be returning with him, hence the reason he tells his two servants who had accompanied them to



Yes, the mitzvah is not to do the sacrifices if there is no Temple (Parashat ‘Aħarei Mοt’ 17:1-4). We do, however, recite prayers such as

during the Haggadah-ceremonial for Pesaħ Eve in anticipation of the Temple ritual's restoration, of which the sacrificial system is part.

Right so your prayers are a “temporary” substitution for sacrifices.

But in your mind you know the significance of a “sacrifice” to God. And you believe in it or should I say the Old Testament “system” of offering sacrifices for atonement of sins.

And if you agree God tested Abraham then what is the “test”?

Killing Issac would be against Gods will/plan which Abraham knew so of course “taking him up” would only be a “test” if the implication would be some sort of “sacrifice” of Issac in the eyes of the reader.

Otherwise there is no demonstration of Abrahams faith or Gods grace providing a Ram.

Abraham belief in God was stronger than the test and obviously God knew this otherwise he wouldn’t have asked

Like I said, the story also undermines the whole pagan idea of child sacrifice because if people (and Abraham) didn’t know human sacrifices was a thing pagans did, then how would the story be understood as a test?

How could obeying God simultaneously lead to contradicting Gods will?

The threat of killing Issac is looming throughout the entire story. But Abraham knows God must have some other plan.

It also foreshadows God always providing a way out of Man’s (Israel) sin and “saving” him, even in the last possible moments you wouldn’t expect or can’t foresee a way out, which is what he did with Jesus

This is probably one of the greatest Bible stories and I think you agree. To make less of it would defeat the purpose.

Otherwise why was it even included?

 

[MMS]

Right so your prayers are a “temporary” substitution for sacrifices.

But in your mind you know the significance of a “sacrifice” to God. And you believe in it or should I say the Old Testament “system” of offering sacrifices for atonement of sins.

And if you agree God tested Abraham then what is the “test”?

Killing Issac would be against Gods will/plan which Abraham knew so of course “taking him up” would only be a “test” if the implication would be some sort of “sacrifice” of Issac in the eyes of the reader.

Otherwise there is no demonstration of Abrahams faith or Gods grace providing a Ram.

Abraham belief in God was stronger than the test and obviously God knew this otherwise he wouldn’t have asked

Like I said, the story also undermines the whole pagan idea of child sacrifice because if people (and Abraham) didn’t know human sacrifices was a thing pagans did, then how would the story be understood as a test?

How could obeying God simultaneously lead to contradicting Gods will?

The threat of killing Issac is looming throughout the entire story. But Abraham knows God must have some other plan.

It also foreshadows God always providing a way out of Man’s (Israel) sin and “saving” him, even in the last possible moments you wouldn’t expect or can’t foresee a way out, which is what he did with Jesus

This is probably one of the greatest Bible stories and I think you agree. To make less of it would defeat the purpose.

Otherwise why was it even included?

what does this even mean? especially to you?

do you even know what the temple sacrifices were for in Leviticus (sin, grain, peace offerings etc)? this is something I keep seeing christians mention without knowledge

Abraham is being tested to see what he listens too.

I've alluded this to you in the many threads (IE false Gods requiring Sacrifice and those peoples surnaming their God as the God of Israel etc) that the way of Canaan IS to sacrifice their children. So Abraham and his family tree who represent a people created in Babylon is actually like an alien to the Canaanites...

even to this day this dynamic is not fully understood. What the bible is describing is both the way people should be AND the substrate God placed his people on...what happens if God never defined the substrate (IE the book of Judges)? @Marks

The amazing name Gershom: meaning and etymology

An indepth look at the meaning and etymology of the awesome name Gershom. We'll discuss the original Hebrew, plus the words and names Gershom is related to, plus the occurences of this name in the Bible.

www.abarim-publications.com

Psalm of David 39:12

12 Hear my prayer, O Lord, and give ear unto my cry; hold not thy peace at my tears: for I am a stranger with thee, and a sojourner, as all my fathers were.

https://www.thecoli.com/threads/hysterical-pawg-gives-the-best-reason-ever-to-get-off-a-plane.984190/page-10#post-49942017

 

[Koichos]

Right so your prayers are a “temporary” substitution for sacrifices.

But in your mind you know the significance of a “sacrifice” to God. And you believe in it or should I say the Old Testament “system” of offering sacrifices for atonement of sins.

The concept of prayer taking the place of animal sacrifice is written right there in the Tana"ch. The prophet Hοsheˁa says it explicitly:

קְְח֤וּ עִִמָָּכֶֶם֙ דְְּבָָָרִִ֔ים וְְשׁ֖וּבוּ אֶֶֶל־יְְיָָ֑ אִִמְְר֣וּ אֵֵלָָָ֗יו כָָָּל־תִִּשָּׂ֤א עָָָָָוֹֹן֙ וְְקַַח־ט֔וֹֹב וּנְְשַַׁלְְּמָ֥ה פָָָרִ֖ים שְְׂפָָָתֵֵֽינוּ׃​

Take words with you when you return to Adοnai; say to Him: 'Oh please, forgive our wrong-doings and accept our good [deeds]—and let us pay with our lips [read: prayer] instead of [sacrificial] oxen. (Hοsheˁa 14:3)

But in your mind you know the significance of a “sacrifice” to God. And you believe in it or should I say the Old Testament “system” of offering sacrifices for atonement of sins.

The sacrificial system is part of the Temple ritual, wherein lies its significance; but it was never the preferred 'route' to atonement and, in any case, can only atone for certain wrongs. The word gentiles invariably translate as 'sin' is חֵֵטְְא ħeṭ (an unintentional oversight).

But in Hebrew we have several words for 'sin' (and 'atonement', for that matter). For example, the word used in the verse above, עָָָָוֹֹן ˁavοn, is a type of infringement that, along with פֶֶֶּּשַַׁע peshaˁ (willful, deliberate rebellion), can not be 'atoned for' through sacrifice.

And if you agree God tested Abraham then what is the “test”?

Killing Issac would be against Gods will/plan which Abraham knew so of course “taking him up” would only be a “test” if the implication would be some sort of “sacrifice” of Issac in the eyes of the reader.

Otherwise there is no demonstration of Abrahams faith or Gods grace providing a Ram.

Abraham belief in God was stronger than the test and obviously God knew this otherwise he wouldn’t have asked

Like I said, the story also undermines the whole pagan idea of child sacrifice because if people (and Abraham) didn’t know human sacrifices was a thing pagans did, then how would the story be understood as a test?

How could obeying God simultaneously lead to contradicting Gods will?

The threat of killing Issac is looming throughout the entire story. But Abraham knows God must have some other plan.

It also foreshadows God always providing a way out of Man’s (Israel) sin and “saving” him, even in the last possible moments you wouldn’t expect or can’t foresee a way out, which is what he did with Jesus

This is probably one of the greatest Bible stories and I think you agree. To make less of it would defeat the purpose.

Otherwise why was it even included?

The entire incident was merely a test of faith; Avraham had to think that God was asking him to sacrifice Yitz'ħaḳ or there would have been no test, but He never wanted Avraham to actually slaughter Yitz'ħaḳ. This is proven by the narrative itself, because when the time came (B'reshyt 22:10), He stopped him at the critical moment when his hand was raised wielding the slaughtering-knife (ibid., 22:12).

...וַַיְְהִִ֗י אַַחַַר֙ הַַדְְּבָָרִ֣ים הָָָאֵֵ֔לֶֶֶּה וְְהָ֣אֱֱֱלֹֹקִִ֔ים נִִסָָּ֖ה אֶֶת־אַַבְְרָָָהָ֑ם​

After these things, the Deity tested Avraham.... (verse 1)

And verse 12 attests to the fact that the 'test' was only to see how much trust His ‘beloved Avraham’ (Y'shaˁyahu 41:8) really had in Him.

 

[DoubleClutch]

The concept of prayer taking the place of animal sacrifice is written right there in the Tana"ch. The prophet Hοsheˁa says it explicitly:



The sacrificial system is part of the Temple ritual, wherein lies its significance; but it was never the preferred 'route' to atonement and, in any case, can only atone for certain wrongs. The word gentiles invariably translate as 'sin' is חֵֵטְְא ħeṭ (an unintentional oversight).

But in Hebrew we have several words for 'sin' (and 'atonement', for that matter). For example, the word used in the verse above, עָָָָוֹֹן ˁavοn, is a type of infringement that, along with פֶֶֶּּשַַׁע peshaˁ (willful, deliberate rebellion), can not be 'atoned for' through sacrifice.


The entire incident was merely a test of faith; Avraham had to think that God was asking him to sacrifice Yitz'ħaḳ or there would have been no test, but He never wanted Avraham to actually slaughter Yitz'ħaḳ. This is proven by the narrative itself, because when the time came (B'reshyt 22:10), He stopped him at the critical moment when his hand was raised wielding the slaughtering-knife (ibid., 22:12).

And verse 12 attests to the fact that the 'test' was only to see how much trust His ‘beloved Avraham’ (Y'shaˁyahu 41:8) really had in Him.

Yea so I think we are saying the same thing

But my point is you have to believe in a system of sacrifices or that God forgives whether it’s a temple system or praying but you NEED both.

If someone said, “the temple and sacrifices was NEVER needed and created by Israelites but ever what god asked” they’d be wrong, right?

And if someone else said, “PRAYING for forgiveness isn’t enough, you need to perform sacrifices still in 2024 without a temple” they would be wrong.

But reading the Bible will tell someone what god wants and how to interact with God.

And also we have the teachings of Jesus which says:

28 just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransomfor many.”

Or

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. [6] That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. [7] Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

^ now you gotta ask yourself how that scripture fits in within your concept/idea or understanding of forgiveness as seen in the Torah and Bible stories of Judaism

 

[DoubleClutch]

what does this even mean? especially to you?

do you even know what the temple sacrifices were for in Leviticus (sin, grain, peace offerings etc)? this is something I keep seeing christians mention without knowledge

Abraham is being tested to see what he listens too.

I've alluded this to you in the many threads (IE false Gods requiring Sacrifice and those peoples surnaming their God as the God of Israel etc) that the way of Canaan IS to sacrifice their children. So Abraham and his family tree who represent a people created in Babylon is actually like an alien to the Canaanites...

even to this day this dynamic is not fully understood. What the bible is describing is both the way people should be AND the substrate God placed his people on...what happens if God never defined the substrate (IE the book of Judges)? @Marks

The amazing name Gershom: meaning and etymology

An indepth look at the meaning and etymology of the awesome name Gershom. We'll discuss the original Hebrew, plus the words and names Gershom is related to, plus the occurences of this name in the Bible.

www.abarim-publications.com

Psalm of David 39:12

https://www.thecoli.com/threads/hysterical-pawg-gives-the-best-reason-ever-to-get-off-a-plane.984190/page-10#post-49942017

I dunno I’m pretty solid on the idea and significance of sacrifices as required by God in the Bible

There’s so many scriptures backing it up I don’t even need to remember or even quote them

You can’t make me forget what i already know/have learned on this

It’s not really a debatable topic unless you say the Bible is “corrupt” like Muslims say or that God is evil like Gnosticism says.

I think the best answer lies in scripture if you can understand it….

OR you can just trust what Jesus said because he’s the messiah and we are living in the “end times”.

 

[MMS]

I dunno I’m pretty solid on the idea and significance of sacrifices as required by God in the Bible

There’s so many scriptures backing it up I don’t even need to remember or even quote them

You can’t make me forget what i already know/have learned on this

It’s not really a debatable topic unless you say the Bible is “corrupt” like Muslims say or that God is evil like Gnosticism says.

I think the best answer lies in scripture if you can understand it….

OR you can just trust what Jesus said because he’s the messiah and we are living in the “end times”.

i said: what does this even mean? especially to you?

IE what is a grain offering...and why is it significant?

youre talking in circles and trying to fit a narrative to another one without considering if its already been done elsewhere.

 

[DoubleClutch]

i said: what does this even mean? especially to you?

IE what is a grain offering...and why is it significant?

youre talking in circles and trying to fit a narrative to another one without considering if its already been done elsewhere.

It doesn’t matter what it means to me necessarily because I believe in Jesus. He simplified all the things before him

What matters is what you, @Koichos and I guess @Marks believe

 

[MMS]

It doesn’t matter what it means to me necessarily because I believe in Jesus. He simplified all the things before him

What matters is what you, @Koichos and I guess @Marks believe

what do you believe about Jesus?

do you perceive this line and consider it in truth?

Matthew 1:20-21

20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.

"In a dream"

Bible Gateway passage: Genesis 40 - King James Version

And it came to pass after these things, that the butler of the king of Egypt and his baker had offended their lord the king of Egypt. And Pharaoh was wroth against two of his officers, against the chief of the butlers, and against the chief of the bakers. And he put them in ward in the house of...

www.biblegateway.com

 

[DoubleClutch]

what do you believe about Jesus?

do you perceive this line and consider it in truth?

Matthew 1:20-21



"In a dream"

Bible Gateway passage: Genesis 40 - King James Version

And it came to pass after these things, that the butler of the king of Egypt and his baker had offended their lord the king of Egypt. And Pharaoh was wroth against two of his officers, against the chief of the butlers, and against the chief of the bakers. And he put them in ward in the house of...

www.biblegateway.com

Breh at this point you have to know I’m Christian.

I believe whatever Jesus is presented in the gospels. Whatever he said and did to be true.

Not the Islam version of Jesus or “ISA” for example

And I don’t necessarily need to go back to any other world religions to understand Jesus/God

 

[Marks]

I believe in Jesus, the way.

 

[Koichos]

Yea so I think we are saying the same thing

But my point is you have to believe in a system of sacrifices or that God forgives whether it’s a temple system or praying but you NEED both.

Not for atonement, we don't.

If someone said, “the temple and sacrifices was NEVER needed and created by Israelites but ever what god asked” they’d be wrong, right?

And if someone else said, “PRAYING for forgiveness isn’t enough, you need to perform sacrifices still in 2024 without a temple” they would be wrong.

But reading the Bible will tell someone what god wants and how to interact with God.

Yup.

And also we have the teachings of Jesus which says:

28 just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransomfor many.”

Or

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. [6] That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. [7] Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

^ now you gotta ask yourself how that scripture fits in within your concept/idea or understanding of forgiveness as seen in the Torah and Bible stories of Judaism

It doesn't.

 

[DoubleClutch]

Not for atonement, we don't.


Yup.


It doesn't.

im saying you need to believe in both. Not that you need to do both for atonement

What would happen if a Jewish person offered sacrifices and prayed for forgiveness but did it as a ritual or religious tradition and really didn’t even believe in God or live life trying to follow laws?

So what does the “kingdom of God” mean in Judaism. If someone asked you to define that in Jewish terms what would you say?

What is the concept close to being “born again” called in Hebrew?

 

[DoubleClutch]

I believe in Jesus, the way.

the “only way”?

 

[Marks]

the “only way”?