Modern humans have existed for 300,000 years but Abrahamic religions are only 3500 years old

Ish Gibor

Omnipresence
Joined
Jan 23, 2017
Messages
4,610
Reputation
734
Daps
6,017
I just :russell: your nonsense away because you’re trying to get me to chase your tangents

How a convo works is you bring something, explain its connection to what we’re discussing, then maybe pose a question. What youre actually doing is posting 5 links with no explanation and demanding I explain it all lol. Pass
What I posted was elaborate on the adjacent history as a whole. To show that your arguments make no sense. You try to pick something out of history, and leave out 99% of other circumstances like colonization of the world within the last 400 - 500 years by a group of people responsible for this.

Nobody in academia takes that type of approach seriously. You can't mention the Habsburg and not talk about all the historical elements that shaped the Habsburg legacy. You can't explain why some painting has, what appears a darker skinned individual, while the remaining legacy is not. Up until the colonization of that region.

This is why you aren't able to elaborate on what you are posting. And this is why you have to run to wikipedia sources (with minimum references as well in the footnote). The whole thing is laughable at best.
 

Ish Gibor

Omnipresence
Joined
Jan 23, 2017
Messages
4,610
Reputation
734
Daps
6,017
I was the first one in this thread that posted about the moors
Mentioning the word Moor is not the same as understanding the history of the Moors. That is what I did. That's the difference.

I brought them up and brought an act that exempted them from the same laws blacks were under and you’ve been moving goalposts ever since so you don’t have to acknowledge how certain blacks were under negro laws and others weren’t. I bring one moor and you call him “William Lee”. I bring 4 more moors and you ask me to explain why they have English names lol. Your whole schtick is to keep moving the goalposts or posting 5 different things demanding explanations to all of them. All so you can avoid acknowledging what’s right in front of you
You as usually posted something without any explanation. It was you who posted some names, with no legacy, no lineage of who they are, where they came from. And this was tied into some captain named William. You never explained who this Wiliam was and is and you still have not done this. And you most likely never will. If this case was so exclusive as you suggest, where is the jurisprudence and who is that captain not known and shown? Who was the captain is what I am asking you?

Btw, I posted the treaty, where enslaved europeans could be returned to their homelands in Europe. I need to see more documentation on the court case. Why these people were mistaken for Moors.

You methods of research are horrible and half way through.

"South Carolina’s Slave Code of 1740 was a series of laws aimed at controlling the population of enslaved African Americans. It prohibited slaves from gathering without white supervision, learning to read and write, and growing their own food. It also created harsher punishments for disobeying the law. The legislature enacted the Slave Code shortly after the Stono Rebellion, which reinforced slave owners’ fears of slave uprisings."
Slave Code of South Carolina, May 1740


Georgiaarchives.org/documents/Slave Laws of Georgia 1755-1860

Yes so maybe this time you’ll explain why a supposed white Spanish king and his descendants are being depicted as dark skinned in a Peruvian museum.
It's no located at a museum, but in a cathedral. This is how much you know about that painting. lol

Anyway, the most likely painted it the way they did, because of the symbology. This was the brink of the Inca civilization was it was known.

And before you go there, I don’t care about your hangups on the term “black” vs “dark skinned” either. Carlos Quinto is supposed to be a pasty cac but they depict him as dark skinned. And the further down you go on the list after the European takeover the whiter they get…
Not everyone who is dark skinned is a Black person. Indians can be dark skinned, but that doesn't make them Africans (the term for Black). Humanity is more complicated than that. That was this is about. You try to attach yourself to other peoples history and legacy, because they are dark skin adjacent.

You’re literally typing just to type
  • he has always been known as Carlos Quinto (Charles the Fifth), his real title was King Charles I of Spain. He was the grandson of Isabel and Ferdinand, who expelled the Moors,

This is what you brought despite you earlier trying to use this same thing as a way to misdirect. Earlier you were saying it might be two different people. Earlier it was “why the name change?” Now that’s what he was always known as but his real title was different.
I didn't type it, I cited the a source. He was the grandson of Isabel and Ferdinand, who expelled the Moors.

So who are Isabel and Ferdinand and who are the parents by Isabel and Ferdinand?


“It’s symbolic”

So “symbolically” they start off with Carlos Quinto being dark skinned then “symbolically” lighten the following emperors until they’re white?
In colonization and imperialism a lot happens by symbolic means to get closer to a people. This is who diplomacy is so effective with nations that are underdeveloped. You lack understand of diplomacy.
 
Last edited:

Ish Gibor

Omnipresence
Joined
Jan 23, 2017
Messages
4,610
Reputation
734
Daps
6,017
It doesn’t say Moors were expelled now does it?
It's common knowledge that the Moors have been expelled from Spain, and this included the Moriscos as well. There are many documents on this. lol smh

Dum diversas wasn’t even about expelling anyone. It was about the exploration of the world and the enslavement of the people they found around the world who weren’t believers in their fake religion.. That’s why Carlos V is holding a Bible in the Incan kings list painting:

Inca_kings_small_4.jpg
So you are now claiming that he the grand son was expelled? But you are not showing us the parents of Carlos V. And since the Papal Bull was not about expelling anyone, you need to explain this:

"Dum Diversas - June 18, 1452
"Pope Nicholas V issued the papal bull Dum Diversas which authorised Alfonso V of Portugal to reduce any “Saracens (Muslims) and pagans and any other unbelievers” to perpetual slavery. This facilitated the Portuguese slave trade from West Africa."

Romanus Pontifex - January 5, 1455
"Pope Nicholas V wrote the bull Romanus Pontifex as a follow-up to the Dum Diversas. It extended dominion over ‘discovered’ lands to the Catholic nations of Europe. Along with sanctifying the seizure of non-Christian lands, it encouraged the enslavement of native, non-Christian peoples in Africa and the New World.

Inter Caetera - May 4, 1493
"Pope Alexander VI issued the bull Inter Caetera stating one Christian nation did not have the right to establish dominion over lands previously dominated by another Christian nation, thus establishing the Law of Nations."

Sublimis Deus – June 2, 1537
"Pope Paul III issued the bull which forbids the enslavement of the Indigenous peoples of the Americas and all other people who could be discovered later."


"This letter illustrates how Elizabeth I attempted to divert attention from social problems by blaming Black people. It was sent to the lord mayor and aldermen of London and to mayors and sheriffs throughout the country.

The queen asserts that England has a growing population of its own and does not need the 'divers blackmoores brought into this realme'. This was followed by a declaration that 10 Black people would be deported. This was only the opening salvo in Elizabeth's campaign to remove 'blackmoores' from England."


PC 2/21, f 304 (11 July 1596)

Black Scapegoats

"But while Elizabeth may have enjoyed being entertained by Black people, in the 1590s she also issued proclamations against them. In 1596 she wrote to the lord mayors of major cities noting that there were 'of late divers blackmoores brought into this realm, of which kind of people there are already here to manie...'. She ordered that 'those kinde of people should be sente forth of the land'.

Elizabeth made an arrangement for a merchant, Casper van Senden, to deport Black people from England in 1596. The aim seems to have been to exchange them for (or perhaps to sell them to obtain funds to buy) English prisoners held by England’s Catholic enemies Spain and Portugal."

[…]
'Those kinde of people may be well spared'

"A week after authorising the deportation of 10 Blackmoores, Elizabeth sent an open letter to various public officials, including the lord mayor of London, requiring their co-operation in the deportation of sufficient numbers of Blackamoores to defray the costs incurred by the merchant, Casper van Senden, in returning English prisoners from Spain and Portugal.

No one could be taken without the consent of his or her master. Elizabeth did not offer any compensation, expecting they would 'like Christians rather to be served by their owne countrymen then with those kynde of people'."


PC 2/21, f. 306 (18 July 1596)

"No doubt van Senden intended to sell these people. But this was not to be, because of Black workers - who had not been offered compensation - refused to let them go. In 1601, Elizabeth issued a further proclamation expressing her 'discontentment by the numbers of blackamores which are crept into this realm...' and again licensing van Senden to deport Black people. It is doubtful whether this second proclamation was any more successful than the first.

Why this sudden, urgent desire to expel members of England's Black population? It was more than a commercial transaction pursued by the queen. In the 16th century, the ruling classes became increasingly concerned about poverty and, as the - which, in theory, had kept everyone in their place - finally broke down. They feared disorder and social breakdown and, blaming the poor, brought in to try to deal with the problem."

[…]
"Less than four years later, a proclamation was issued, in effect compelling the masters of 'Negroes and blackamoors' to release them to Casper van Senden for deportation.

England was facing difficult times during its wars with Spain, and Elizabeth claimed that Black people were consuming resources needed by the English. By the time of this proclamation (around 1601), there appears to be no limit on the numbers of Black people that van Senden could take."


Tudor Royal Proclamations, vol. 3, pp. 221-2 (c. January 1601)

"In the 1590s the harvests repeatedly failed, bringing hunger, disease and a rapid increase in poverty and vagrancy. Elizabeth's orders against Black people were an attempt to blame them for wider social problems. Her proclamation of 1601 claimed that Black people were 'fostered and relieved here to the great annoyance of [the queen's] own liege people, that want the relief, which those people consume'. The proclamation also stated that 'most of them are infidels, having no understanding of Christ or his Gospel'.

It may be the case that many (although by no means all) Black people were Muslims (of North African origin). If so, it seems that the queen was playing on their difference from Protestant England to assert that they were not welcome. Whether they were actually more likely to be in poverty than Whites is much more doubtful. What is clear is that they were being used as a convenient scapegoat at a time of crisis."

The National Archives | Exhibitions & Learning online | Black presence | Early times

"The results of the craniometric analysis indicated that the majority of the York population had European origins, but that 11% of the Trentholme Drive and 12% of The Railway study samples were likely of African decent."
(Leach et al. 2009, Migration and diversity in Roman Britain: a multidisciplinary approach to the identification of immigrants in Roman York, England)
 
Last edited:

Ish Gibor

Omnipresence
Joined
Jan 23, 2017
Messages
4,610
Reputation
734
Daps
6,017
They felt that because the Incans (in this example) didn’t believe in their fake god that it gave them the right to conquer, enslave, and take all their resources away.
Right now it doesn't matter how, more so that it happened and now this region is known for Catholicism. Hence, this is how colonialism and diplomacy works. You convince and trick people.


And going by this depiction it wasn’t cacs doing this to a “people of color” but a “people of color” doing this to another “people of color”.
Doing what to who? People of color? Iberian people aren't white like Anglo-Saxons, if that is what you are referring at?

The first Africans from Spain were known as ladinos, or hispanicized Africans, and were soldiers, servants, settlers, and slaves. They began to arrive in the Americas as early as the 15th century, many as auxiliaries to the Spanish and Portuguese explorers."
NPS Ethnography: African American Heritage & Ethnography

"Black Ladinos (Spanish: negros ladinos) were Hispanicized black Ladinos, exiled to Spanish America after having spent time in Spain. They were referred to as negros ladinos ("cultivated" or "latinized Blacks"), as opposed to negros bozales ("uneducated Blacks"), i.e. those captured in Africa. The Ladinos' skills granted them a higher price than those of bozales. Black Ladinos born in the Americas were negros criollos ("Creole Blacks", cf. Creoles of color). (en)"
Black ladino

"They were called ladinos or negros de Castilla or de Portugal alluding to their partial or total assimilation to the two most important languages of the Iberian peninsula."
(Maurizio Santoro Queensborough Community College-CUNY, Puerto Rican Spanish: A Case Of Partial Restructuring)

"These hispanized blacks (ladinos) spoke the language of Christopher Columbus, Hernan Cortes and Francisco Pizarro; the continental Africans (bozales) who later came to the New World would ensure that Spain’s ideological and political economy agendas were carried out. These two groups of Africans can be identified as the ancestors of today’s Afro-Colombian population."

"Of these enslaved people, only thirty-three were considered ladino, or conversant in Castilian language (and culture). By contrast, forty-six slaves were classified as bozales, the term used to identify African slaves who had recently arrived from their homelands and had little understanding of Spanish society.Footnote 76 Another five were labeled “between bozal and ladino” as if to recognize their increasing, but still limited, familiarity with the colonial scenario. No further information was available for the remainder of the slaves sold in the city, but considering the timeframe, it is safe to say that a majority of them would have been recent African arrivals."
 
Last edited:

Ish Gibor

Omnipresence
Joined
Jan 23, 2017
Messages
4,610
Reputation
734
Daps
6,017
They felt that because the Incans (in this example) didn’t believe in their fake god that it gave them the right to conquer, enslave, and take all their resources away. And going by this depiction it wasn’t cacs doing this to a “people of color” but a “people of color” doing this to another “people of color”. And the same year they made at decree of expelling Jews is the same year they sent Columbus to the Americas.. No coincidence
:coffee:
Yes, that expel did happen.



Bruce D. Haynes touches this subject as well in his book, The Soul of Judaism: Jews of African Descent in America. It’s not just about America as the book suggests:

“Scholars have identified the importance of the Atlantic in shaping the African and Jewish diasporas, which intersected in colonial society. After Portugal and Spain joined under a single monarch in 1580, many Jews and conversos fled, first to the Netherlands, where they could openly practice their Judaism, and later to Dutch- and British-controlled areas in the New World—such as Curaçao (arriving in 1651), Suriname (Dutch Guiana) (1651), Jamaica (1677), and Barbados (1654)—which offered them varying degrees of religious and national freedom (Faber 1998). (Studies of rabbinic responsa reveal that many Jews fleeing the Inquisition took their maidservants and slaves with them [Schorsch 2009].) Curaçao and Suriname became the two largest Jewish communities in the New World (Sutcliffe 2009).

The largely Sephardi communities that sprouted across the black Atlantic continued to practice Old World Judaism, which recognized slavery in biblical terms. Slaves of Jewish owners were often immersed in a mikveh to legitimate their bondage, a practice that stems back to Egypt (Schorsch 2009). Household slaves were often converted via circumci- sion—in accordance with the Torah, which mandates that all male slaves be circumcised (Genesis 17:12–13)—or immersion to render them ritually proper to prepare kosher food (Schorsch 2009, 219). Renowned historian and slavery expert Hugh Thomas”.


Some other sources on this topic:

“How Racism Was First Officially Codified in 15th-Century Spain In 1449, a Toledo edict made racial discrimination legal.”
[…]

“Along with slavery, Spain exported limpieza. In 1552, the Spanish Crown decreed that emigrants to America must furnish proof of limpieza. The Spanish deployed limpieza throughout Spanish America and the Portuguese adopted it in Brazil. In its new environment, limpieza began to mutate, beginning to refer to an absence of black blood as well as an absence of Jewish blood.”
[…]
“Beginning in the 1440s, Spain and Portugal entered the African slave trade, formerly dominated by Islamic countries. The discovery of America and the development of plantation agriculture considerably expanded African slavery. Between 1500 and 1580 Spain shipped approximately 74,000 African people to America; this number increased to approximately 714,000 between 1580 and 1640.”

“How Racism Was First Officially Codified in 15th-Century Spain In 1449, a Toledo edict made racial discrimination legal.”
[…]
“Along with slavery, Spain exported limpieza. In 1552, the Spanish Crown decreed that emigrants to America must furnish proof of limpieza. The Spanish deployed limpieza throughout Spanish America and the Portuguese adopted it in Brazil. In its new environment, limpieza began to mutate, beginning to refer to an absence of black blood as well as an absence of Jewish blood.”
[…]
“Beginning in the 1440s, Spain and Portugal entered the African slave trade, formerly dominated by Islamic countries. The discovery of America and the development of plantation agriculture considerably expanded African slavery. Between 1500 and 1580 Spain shipped approximately 74,000 African people to America; this number increased to approximately 714,000 between 1580 and 1640.”

“In both cases, the idea was that “impure” blood could taint a person’s character. In 1604, historian Fray Prudencio de Sandoval compared the impure natures of blacks and Jews: “Who can deny that in descendants of Jews there persists and endures the evil inclination of their ancient ingratitude and lack of understanding, just as in the Negroes [there persists] the inseparability of their blackness. For if the latter should unite themselves a thousand times with white women, the children are born with the dark color of the father. Similarly, it is not enough for the Jew to be three parts aristocrat or Old Christian, for one Jewish ancestor alone defiles and corrupts him.”

"The seventeenth-century Portuguese Jewish community in Amsterdam was comprised of members coming from Spain, Portugal, Italy, Turkey, Greece, France, Belgium, Morocco, and West Africa. José Da Silva Horta and Peter Mark(2011) found records of Sephardic communities along the West coast of Africa. The archival records reveal the reality of slave trade. Portuguese conversos [coerced Jewish converts to Catholicism] had been slave trading since the sixteenth century between Lisbon, Sevilla, the Atlantic islands, and West Africa. They even managed to control the asientos [contracts permitting the sell of slaves in the Spanish colonies] between 1580 and 1640. The most prominent slave traders were from the families: Rodrigues, Jiménez, Noronha, Mendes, Pallos Dias, Caballero, Jorge, Fernandes Elvas, and Caldeira. The members of these families established an international network based on national-religious ties and kinship."

"This paper examines the processes by which Africans proselytised Sephardic Jews on the coast of West Africa in the 16th and 17th centuries and were in their turn proselytised by Jews both in West Africa and elsewhere in the Atlantic world in the early modern era."

"According to Covitt, many ancient Malian manuscripts on a variety of subjects were written by Ambassadors of Peace. Between the 12th through 16th centuries, some 25,000 students came from around the world to study at the University of Sankoré in Timbuktu (a UNESCO World Heritage Site). “As a result, these manuscripts were written in many different languages, including some that were written in both Arabic and Hebrew."

fcaU3dqn_o.png
 
Last edited:

Geordi

All Star
Joined
Jul 6, 2018
Messages
2,533
Reputation
536
Daps
12,204
That's indeed a good argument. Not that this argument has no validation, because it does. But all the other individuals have darker skin as well, while some are indeed white.
Around the 18th century aristocrats in Europe started wearing white wigs and powdering both their faces and wigs. Whoever made the painting is showing the differences between white kings with makeup and wigs, and white kings before with natural brown hair and non painted skin starting with Felipe Quinto. The canvas also looks heavily faded and may have been much brighter when originally painted like many ancient paintings.
 

Everythingg

King-Over-Kingz
Bushed
Joined
Nov 21, 2013
Messages
9,100
Reputation
-2,418
Daps
16,728
What I posted was
I don’t care :manny:
It's no located at a museum, but in a cathedral. This is how much you know about that painting. lol

Anyway, the most likely painted it the way they did, because of the symbology. This was the brink of the Inca civilization was it was known.
:russell:

The painting is at Larco museum in Peru. :coffee:




“This was the brink of Inca civilization (w)as it was known”

I guess you meant “as it was known” but no. It’s not “symbology” just because you can’t and don’t want to understand why the Spanish emperors in the painting started with dark skin before ending with light skin…
Not everyone who is dark skinned is a Black person. Indians can be dark skinned, but that doesn't make them Africans (the term for Black). Humanity is more complicated than that. That was this is about. You try to attach yourself to other peoples history and legacy, because they are dark skin adjacent.


I didn't type it, I cited the a source, you dummy. He was the grandson of Isabel and Ferdinand, who expelled the Moors.

So who are Isabel and Ferdinand and who are the parents by Isabel and Ferdinand?



In colonization and imperialism a lot happens by symbolic means to get closer to a people. This is who diplomacy is so effective with nations that are underdeveloped. You lack understand of diplomacy.

I already said I don’t care about your hangups of black vs dark skin. Carlos Quinto is depicted as a dark skinned man yet cacs say he was a pasty cac. Can’t be both. I also never claimed to be a moor or from people that were moors. There are different types of “black” (San people vs Sudanese” just as there are different types of white (Italian vs Russians) just as there are different types of Asian (Chinese vs Philipinos)

“I didn’t type it I cited it dummy” :mjlol:

Look how semantical you get when put in a corner? Just earlier you were saying Charles V and Carlos Quinto were two different people. You were asking about a name change. Now all of a sudden you bring something that says his name was ALWAYS KNOWN AS Carlos Quinto lol.
It's common knowledge that the Moors have been expelled from Spain, and this included the Moriscos as well. There are many documents on this. lol smh


So you are now claiming that he the grand son was expelled? But you are not showing us the parents of Carlos V. And since the Papal Bull was not about expelling anyone, you need to explain this:
One more time:
The Alhambra Decree (also known as the Edict of Expulsion; Spanish: Decreto de la Alhambra, Edicto de Granada) was an edict issued on 31 March 1492, by the joint Catholic Monarchs of Spain (Isabella I of Castile and Ferdinand II of Aragon) ordering the expulsion of practising Jews from the Crowns of Castile and Aragon and its territories and possessions by 31 July of that year.

Though moor is a blanket term like “black”, they specifically expelled Jews from Spain. Dum diversas had nothing to do with expelling anyone

Doing what to who? People of color? Iberian people aren't white like Anglo-Saxons, if that is what you are referring at?
:jbhmm::mjpls:
255371-1330620924.jpg
:mjlol:
There’s a large leap from this above to this:

639311df57a98e89f9a4c188da1ef151--aztec-empire-african-royalty.jpg
Just because you don’t like the implication this picture CLEARLY painting this Hapsburg as a dark skinned man has, doesn’t mean it becomes symbolic. Especially when the latest emperors on the painting are depicted having white/lighter skin…
 

Ish Gibor

Omnipresence
Joined
Jan 23, 2017
Messages
4,610
Reputation
734
Daps
6,017
Around the 18th century aristocrats in Europe started wearing white wigs and powdering both their faces and wigs. Whoever made the painting is showing the differences between white kings with makeup and wigs, and white kings before with natural brown hair and non painted skin starting with Felipe Quinto. The canvas also looks heavily faded and may have been much brighter when originally painted like many ancient paintings.
Are you referring to the 18th century barque period?


I get what you're sayn, but the issue I am dealing with is that the two indeviduala at the two row still remain the same complexion. I do see the degradation in the picture, but don't know to what stage. It could be the picture was taken under bad light conditions as well.

Now that I have second look, I realize that Carlos V has a cross symbol next to him. I guess that's the introduction to a new period, a Cristian period.

per-100118-9305-lima-museo-larco-inca-kings-tree-after-athaualpa-king-carlos-v-of-spain.jpg


Compared to this images posted on twitter.

 
Last edited:

Ish Gibor

Omnipresence
Joined
Jan 23, 2017
Messages
4,610
Reputation
734
Daps
6,017
I don’t care :manny:
And literally nobody cares about what you think. Ever processed that one? lol

The painting is at Larco museum in Peru. :coffee:

“This was the brink of Inca civilization (w)as it was known”
That was I said. And I posted that source. smh

You are now literally reposting the sources I have posted.

I guess you meant “as it was known” but no. It’s not “symbology” just because you can’t and don’t want to understand why the Spanish emperors in the painting started with dark skin before ending with light skin…
You don't understand the tactics of diplomacy and colonialism, because you lack knowledge in general about world history.

"Initially within the Spanish colonies there was a two-tier system of socio-economic divisions for people of African descent.

This system consisted of bozales or unacculturated Africans who performed the back breaking labor of the mines, plantations, ranches and forests, and ladinos, free and enslaved hispanicized people of African descent who performed urban domestic work, artisan and lower-status economic jobs (e.g. tailors and masons) (Landers 1999:16).

For bozales initially unfamiliar with the system of Spanish slavery, it would not take long for them to realize that slavery under the Spanish crown and within the colonies was vastly different from what was experienced in Africa (Guiter 2000). Bozales were often “seasoned” or made familiar with the climate and food of the Americas as well as how to work with Spaniards and understand the language, behavior and customs of the society. They were also the first to occupy the front lines in battle largely because of the mistrust felt toward them by the Spanish."






http://www.hispanocubano.org/cas/cul1c1.pdf

Origen de los esclavos de Puerto Rico y Cuba - llevados o comprados por los españoles
I already said I don’t care about your hangups of black vs dark skin. Carlos Quinto is depicted as a dark skinned man yet cacs say he was a pasty cac. Can’t be both. I also never claimed to be a moor or from people that were moors. There are different types of “black” (San people vs Sudanese” just as there are different types of white (Italian vs Russians) just as there are different types of Asian (Chinese vs Philipinos)

“I didn’t type it I cited it dummy” :mjlol:
You don't understand the difference between a citation and someone making a statement, I get it.

In your mind a people who got enslaved in the new world, somehow became the king and queens in the new world.

Look how semantical you get when put in a corner? Just earlier you were saying Charles V and Carlos Quinto were two different people. You were asking about a name change. Now all of a sudden you bring something that says his name was ALWAYS KNOWN AS Carlos Quinto lol.
I am being put in a corner, because you posted a picture you have no knowledge about. As you do with 99% of the remaining world history.

You are not answering any question...

You failed to explain why queen Elizabeth from England had these people Blackamoors expelled, although some remained to stay. I posted primary sources, you post memes in return. lol smh

The comincal part is that I am only scratching the surface here. I haven't gone that deep yet. Can you imagine? lol


0


hatfield-house-draft-proclamation-cp-91-15-a.jpg


"This draft proclamation of 1601 is an important document revealing that there must have been a significant proportion of people of different ethnic backgrounds living in Elizabethan England. But the proclamation asks for the deportation of black people, described as ‘Negroes and blackamoors’, from the realm of England. This was justified on the grounds that these people were viewed as Muslim ‘infidels’ who were draining resources needed by the Queen’s ‘own natural subjects’ at a time of ‘dearth’ or hardship.

In the late 16th century, repeatedly failing harvests had caused an increase in poverty, starvation and vagrancy. In terms that might sound unnervingly familiar to a modern reader, the expulsion of black people was presented as a solution. In fact they were so small in number that their absence would have had done little to relieve English suffering."


There is a full transcript of this manuscript on The National Archives website

 
Last edited:

Ish Gibor

Omnipresence
Joined
Jan 23, 2017
Messages
4,610
Reputation
734
Daps
6,017
One more time:
The Alhambra Decree (also known as the Edict of Expulsion; Spanish: Decreto de la Alhambra, Edicto de Granada) was an edict issued on 31 March 1492, by the joint Catholic Monarchs of Spain (Isabella I of Castile and Ferdinand II of Aragon) ordering the expulsion of practising Jews from the Crowns of Castile and Aragon and its territories and possessions by 31 July of that year.

Though moor is a blanket term like “black”, they specifically expelled Jews from Spain. Dum diversas had nothing to do with expelling anyone
And who do you think was practicing this and eventually got put into slavery?

Dum diversas sanctioned to enslave a certain group of people and get them out of the Iberia. But that is not expelling?


Here are primary sources (manuscripts) linked by Dominican Studies Institute, The City College of New York, North Academic Center (NAC)). I post the links separated for you here, since you are a bit slow. Btw, the Wikipedia source as some funny clown shyt. And of course you aren't going to elaborate on those monarches, who you claimed were Black. smh

Manuscript No. 007
Date: 1503, March 29. Zaragoza, Spain Theme: Enslaved Blacks began to resist slavery practically since they arrived in La Española, by running away Source: PARES, Portal de Archivos Españoles--Archivo General de Indias, INDIFERENTE,418 L.1, 100R- 102V

Manuscript No. 008
Date: 1504, February 15. Medina del Campo, Spain Theme: Order by the Catholic Kings refusing to allow the free importation of slaves into La Española Source: PARES, Portal de Archivos Españoles, Archivo General de Indias,INDIFERENTE,418,L.1 – Imágenes Núm: 249/378, 250/

Manuscript No. 009 Date: 1505, September 15. Segovia, Spain Theme: Order from the Spanish Crown to La Española’s Governor Nicolás de Ovando, agreeing to send more Black slaves and mandating the enslaved Blacks available in the colony to be put to work in the gold mines Source: PARES, Portal de Archivos Españoles, Archivo General de Indias, INDIFERENTE, 418, L.1, F.180V-181V—1—Imagen Núm:

Manuscript No. 009
Date: 1505, September 15. Segovia, Spain Theme: Order from the Spanish Crown to La Española’s Governor Nicolás de Ovando, agreeing to send more Black slaves and mandating the enslaved Blacks available in the colony to be put to work in the gold mines Source: PARES, Portal de Archivos Españoles, Archivo General de Indias, INDIFERENTE, 418, L.1, F.180V-181V—1—Imagen Núm:


"The Christianized Blacks mentioned in the sixteenth-century documents issued in Spain, La Española and the rest of the Spanish empire were known as ladinos, and the term referred in general to the Blacks who were familiar in general with the religion, cultures, and languages of Castile or Portugal (either because of having been born and raised in those territories or due to long contact with or exposure to these cultures)."

"Conversely those Blacks with no familiarity with the Iberian cultures and languages, typically those brought straight from Africa, were called bozales.

As indicated here, during these first years of the colonization, the Spanish Crown tried to limit the arrival of Blacks into the Americas to ladinos, but the restriction lasted only a short time."

"From January 1502 there is evidence of at least one enslaved Black man being sent from Seville to La Española together with two other men, presumably free, to work in the extraction of gold under the orders of a fourth individual who was himself under a contract as a worker for a merchant of Seville.[1] Moreover on September 12th 1502, the Spanish monarchs authorized at least two royal court’s employees to organize a fleet to take provisions to the settlers established in La Española, explicitly allowing the organizers of the expedition to include ‘as many Blacks as they wanted,’ in what seems a clear reference to slaves.[2] According to Carlos Esteban Deive it is not known whether there was actually any shipment of enslaved Blacks made under the permit, but this stands as the first recorded royal license issued to import slaves into La Española."

"By late 1502 or early 1503 there was in La Española a large enough number of enslaved Blacks to begin worrying Governor Ovando about the incapacity of the colonists to prevent at least some slaves from escaping captivity. In response, Ovando requested to the Crown that no more Blacks be brought to La Española “because those that existed there had escaped.” (see Manuscript No. 007). The monarchs seem to have heeded the request immediately, since there is a response from them, in the form of a royal order of March 29, 1503 in which they promised to stop the sending of enslaved Blacks (“on this we will order to proceed as you say”)[4] and for a while after the 1503 royal promise to stop the importing of Black slaves into La Española there seems to have been no more sending of Blacks for over a year and a half. In February of 1504 the Crown reiterated the prohibition.[5] And still by October 1504 there were no new authorizations given for the transferring of Black slaves (“esclavos”) to La Española that we know of, though there was at least one case authorizing the sending of enslaved whites (“esclavos blancos”) on an expedition lead by Alonso de Ojeda.[6] (see Manuscript No. 008)."

Yet by the end of 1504 and in the following year, things changed.
Not only had enslaved Blacks begun to be shipped to La Española again, but some of them were bozales.[7] In January of 1505 a carabela reportedly left from to Hispaniola carrying 16 Black slaves assigned to work in the colony’s mines.[8] Also governor Ovando seems to have changed his mind about importing Blacks. In September he was referred to in a Crown document as having requested the sending of “more Black slaves” to work the local gold mines of La Española.[9] (see Manuscript No. 009). He is said to have actually requested to the King that he send 20 more slaves.[10] The Crown responded positively to the request on September 15th, deciding to send a total of one hundred enslaved Blacks. Also in their response they explicitly confirmed that at the time there were already a number of Black slaves in the colony, by referring to them as “those that are there.” [11] In what seems an evident eagerness for obtaining more gold from the island, the Crown flatly ordered the governor to put those enslaved Blacks to work in the mines, and even offering them freedom as their reward if they worked to the Crown’s satisfaction for an undetermined number of years, a way, according to Deive, to try to prevent them from fleeing.[12] (see Manuscript No. 009).

"It is not clear whether the hundred slaves ever arrived in La Española, but it seems that at least between January and September of 1505 the 20 slaves requested by Ovando may have been received in the colony. In a communications of September 15 and 16, 1505 the King, in addressing the Casa de la Contratación indicated that Ovando had reported receiving 17 ‘Black slaves’ from the Casa (possibly the same group of slaves shipped in January of that year and referred to in the paragraph above) and was already requesting more.[13] In the letter the king reiterated his desire to have 100 slaves sent to the colony so that “all these gather gold for me.” [14] (see Manuscript No. 009). These slaves are supposed to have been from the Guinee region and to have been bought in Lisbon. [15] If that was the case, as Deive says, then it is likely that those slaves could have been bozales. Three more slaves had been supposedly sent to Ovando, shipped on July 16, 1505. And these would have completed the 20 requested. [16]"

(First Blacks in the Americas - Dominican Studies Institute, The City College of New York, North Academic Center (NAC))
 
Last edited:

T-K-G

Veteran
Joined
May 12, 2012
Messages
36,674
Reputation
5,284
Daps
105,194
Reppin
LWO/Starkset
You have to turn off your brain for it to work
Imagine pulling up in heaven and every human and animal in the history of humans and animals are also there :damn: y'all just standing around forever!

:mjlol:we got water for the fish or they just floating on nothing?

I'm not tryna be in the same spaces as dinosaurs and vikings :hubie:
 

Ish Gibor

Omnipresence
Joined
Jan 23, 2017
Messages
4,610
Reputation
734
Daps
6,017


There’s a large leap from this above to this:

639311df57a98e89f9a4c188da1ef151--aztec-empire-african-royalty.jpg
Just because you don’t like the implication this picture CLEARLY painting this Hapsburg as a dark skinned man has, doesn’t mean it becomes symbolic. Especially when the latest emperors on the painting are depicted having white/lighter skin…
1 ) One is in the old world and the other is in the new world where they colonized the new world.

2 ) What can you tell me about his life, Carlos Quinto?

"Origin:Italian. Meaning:Fifth. Quinto Quinto as a boy's name is a variation of Quentin and is of Latin origin. Quinto means "fifth-born son" or "born in the fifth month"

3 ) What can you tell me about the region, the people from that region and the cathedral? It's at the Larco museum now, but it originally was located at a cathedral in Peru. Or do yo think it was always located in the Larco museum, which was found in 1926? lol smh

4 ) Now start explain the other parts of the painting from the 18th century (Oil on canvas, Cusco School, 18th century, Private collection)., the Capac Cuna Inca o Genealogía de los Incas Room 6, Vitrine 62. What does these mean?

"Cuzco school, the group of European and indigenous painters active in Cuzco, Peru, from the 16th through the 18th century. The term refers not to an easily identifiable style from a single period of history but instead to the artists of multiple ethnicities who worked in various styles throughout the history of the Viceroyalty of Peru in and around Cuzco."


per-100118-9305-lima-museo-larco-inca-kings-tree-after-athaualpa-king-carlos-v-of-spain.jpg

(Oil on canvas, Cusco School, 18th century, Private collection)


Make it make sense?

"One had expected him also to have mentioned the papal Bulls such as “Dum Diversas,” and “Romanus Pontifex” of pope Nicholas V in 1452 and 1454 respectively and those of his successors up to the papacy of pope Leo X in 1514, which supported and blessed the Transatlantic enslavement of Black Africans. The contents of these papal Bulls, whose inclusion was avoided in the said Book by the aforesaid author have been properly handled in section III of this present Book. Also the Latin copies of these papal Bulls have been provided in the Appendix A and B of this Book."

This request prompted the writing of the two famous papal Bulls “Dum Diversas” issued in 1452 and “Romanus Pontifex” issued in 1454 by pope Nicholas V to the kings of Portugal and Prince Henry which gave them the overriding authority and power of control over their acquired territories in Africa as well as the power to dispossess the natives of this region of all their rights to self-dominion, private possessions as well as to force them into perpetual enslavement.31 And empowered by this papal authority, the road was made free for the forceful carrying of Black Africans by the Portuguese in ships of different sizes across the Atlantic Ocean into Europe and later to the Spanish New World in the sixteenth century. The attitudes of the popes towards the enslaved Black Africans after the death of pope Nicholas V in 1455 was one of support and approval of this enslavement in the sense that they continued to tighten the nails of enslavement with which Nicholas V nailed the Black Africans into perpetual slavery to serve as slaves in the sugar-cane plantations and gold and silver mines in the Spanish New World."
[...]
After the death of king Ferdinand of Spain in 1516, the administration of the Spanish American colonies fell into the hands of king Charles V (1500-1558) the Holy Roman Emperor in 1518. It was during his reign that the request made by Bartholomew de Las Casas (1461-1555) and the Spanish Governors in
the Caribbean islands to grant license for a direct importation of West African slaves into the Americas saw the full light of the day. In one of the letters addressed to the king in 1518, whose tone necessitated the grant of this license, the issue of the whereabouts of the Black African slaves and their religion was also emphasized. In the emphasis made therein, fray Manzanedo pleaded as follows: “All the citizens of Hispaniola demand your Majesty to give them license to be able to import Blacks, because the Indians are insufficient to sustain them in the land. They (Blacks) had to come from the best territory in Africa.”190 This demand was finally granted by Emperor Charles V on August 18, 1518. The license contained among other things, the importation of four thousand Black Africans directly from the Guinea Coast into the New World for a period of four years.

Indians as well as to liberate them from their enslaved condition. And this, he did with the help of the Archbishop of Seville Diego de Deza (*1444, bishopric 1487-1523) who assisted him to have a direct audience with the Spanish king Ferdinand II (*1452, reigned 1479-1516) on December 23, 1515. After a brief discussion with king Ferdinand II on the plight of the native Indians in the New World, the audience was re-scheduled to take place on January 23, 1516. But before this date, the king died and was succeeded by his 16 years old son Charles I of Spain, who later became the emperor Charles V (*1500, reigned 1519-1556) of the Holy Roman Empire.

On September 17, 1516 Las Casas was appointed the universal Procurator of the Indians of the entire West Indies by emperor Charles V with the post of representing the affairs of the Indians at the palace of the king in Spain.


In his effort to set them free from enslavement and from the hard work at the gold and silver mines and on the sugar plantations, he recommended to the Holy Roman emperor Charles V in 1535 that Black Africans should be forced to replace the dying population of the Indians in the strenuous work at the plantations in the New World.

 
Last edited:

Everythingg

King-Over-Kingz
Bushed
Joined
Nov 21, 2013
Messages
9,100
Reputation
-2,418
Daps
16,728
And literally nobody cares
I’m right and you’re wrong so why would I care about who accepts the truth or not? :manny:
That was I said. And I posted that source. smh

You are now literally reposting the sources I have posted.
:unimpressed:

Goyim: it’s no(t) located at a museum, but in a cathedral

*posts museum that it’s located in*

Goyim: That’s what I said

:laff:
You don't understand the tactics of diplomacy and colonialism, because you lack knowledge in general about world history.
Goyim: They painted them as dark skinned to be diplomatic but then made the later kings white because errr umm diplomacy

:mjlol:
You don't understand the difference between a citation and someone making a statement, I get it.

In your mind a people who got enslaved in the new world, somehow became the king and queens in the new world.

Yup when you’re in a corner you have to reach at anything to get out lol

I mean see how you’re still pretending that Carlos Quinto, Felipe Segundo, Felipe Cuarto,etc.. aren’t European kings but are incans in Euroface?
:mjlol:
I am being put in a corner, because you posted a picture you have no knowledge about. As you do with 99% of the remaining world history.

You are not answering any question...
Yea I’m not following your random tangents whenever you want to pull them out. The Hapsburgs didn’t rule over England so England expelling moors (even though there’s arguments that black people ruled over England too) isn’t relevant in regards to what happened in Spain…
:unimpressed:
 
Top