European vs North American description of the Moors

[Poitier]

The Arab slave trade was the practice of slavery in the Arab world, mainly in Western Asia, North Africa, Southeast Africa, the Horn of Africa and certain parts of Europe (such as Iberia and Sicily) during the era of the Arab conquests. The trade was focused on the slave markets of the Middle East, North Africa and the Horn of Africa. Slaves were of varied race, ethnicity, and religion.[1]

Ibn Khaldun suggests a link between the decline of Ghana and rise of the Almoravids. However, there is little evidence of there actually being an Almoravid conquest of Ghana[67][68] aside from the parallel conflict with Takrur, which was allied with the Almoravid and eventually absorbed by them

I don't see West Africa on that list....

During the 8th and 9th centuries of the Fatimid Caliphate, most of the slaves were Europeans (called Saqaliba) captured along European coasts and during wars.[2] Historians estimate that between 650 and 1900, 10 to 18 million people were enslaved by Arab slave traders and taken from Europe, Asia and Africa across the Red Sea, Indian Ocean, and Sahara desert.[3] However, slaves were drawn from a wide variety of regions and included Mediterranean peoples, Persians, peoples from the Caucasus mountain regions (such as Georgia, Armenia and Circassia) and parts of Central Asia and Scandinavia, English, Dutch and Irish,

Arabs also enslaved Europeans. According to Robert Davis, between 1 million and 1.25 million Europeans were captured between the 16th and 19th
centuries by Barbary corsairs, who were vassals of the Ottoman Empire, and sold as slaves.[11][12] These slaves were captured mainly from seaside villages from Italy, Spain, Portugal and also from more distant places like France or England, the Netherlands, Ireland and even Iceland. They were also taken from ships stopped by the pirates.[13] The effects of these attacks were devastating: France, England, and Spain each lost thousands of ships. Long stretches of the Spanish and Italian coasts were almost completely abandoned by their inhabitants, because of frequent pirate attacks. Pirate raids discouraged settlement along the coast until the 19th century.[14][15]

Periodic Arab raiding expeditions were sent from Islamic Iberia to ravage the Christian Iberian kingdoms, bringing back booty and slaves. In a raid against Lisbon in 1189, for example, the Almohad caliph, Abu Yusuf Yaqub al-Mansur, took 3,000 female and child captives, while his governor of Córdoba, in a subsequent attack upon Silves in 1191, took 3,000 Christian slaves.[16]

The Ottoman wars in Europe and Tatar raids brought large numbers of European Christian slaves into the Muslim world.[17][18][19] In 1769 a last major Tatar raid saw the capture of 20,000 Russian and Polish slaves.[20]

while female slaves, including those from Africa, were long traded to the Middle Eastern countries and kingdoms by Arab and Oriental traders as concubines and servants.

By 1475 most of the slaves were provided by Tatar raids on Slavic villages.[20] Until the late 18th century, the Crimean Khanatemaintained a massive slave trade with the Ottoman Empire and the Middle East, exporting about 2 million slaves from Poland-Lithuania and Russia over the period 1500–1700.[41]

In contrast to the Atlantic slave trade, where the male-female ratio was 2:1 or 3:1, the Arab slave trade instead usually had a higher female-to-male ratio. This suggests a general preference for female slaves. Concubinage and reproduction served as incentives for importing female slaves (often Caucasian), though many were also imported mainly for performing household tasks.[52]

There are also historical evidence of North African Muslim slave raids all along the Mediterranean coasts across Christian Europe and beyond to even as far north as the British Isles and Iceland (see the book titled White Gold by Giles Milton).[78]The majority of slaves traded across the Mediterranean region were predominantly of European origin from the 7th to 15th centuries.[79] The Barbary pirates continued to capture slaves from Europe and, to an extent, North America, from the 16th to 19th centuries.

Slaves were also brought into the Arab world via Central Asia, mainly of Turkic or Tartar origin. Many of these slaves later went on to serve in the armies forming an elite rank.

ALL of these White slaves but some are acting like Bantu slaves were the majority? Odd.

Toward the 18th and 19th centuries, the flow of Zanj (Bantu) slaves from Southeast Africa increased with the rise of the Oman sultanate, which was based in Zanzibar in Tanzania.

So the Bantu who were enslaved were from Northeast Africa and not West Africa? Why should a West African mark off points for what the Berbers did?

The term Arab when used in historical documents often represented an ethnic term, as many of the "Arab" slave traders, such as Tippu Tipand others, were physically indistinguishable from the "Africans" whom they bought and sold.

Populations in Carthage circa 200 BC and northern Algeria 1500 BC were diverse.[citation needed] As a group, they plotted closest to the populations of Northern Egypt and intermediate to Northern Europeans and tropical Africans: "the data supported the comments from ancient authors observed by classicists: everything from fair-skinned blonds to peoples who were dark-skinned 'Ethiopian' or part Ethiopian in appearance."[43] Modern evidence shows a similar diversity among present North Africans. Moreover, this diversity of phenotypes and peoples was probably due to in situ differentiation, not foreign influxes.[citation needed] Foreign influxes are thought to have had an impact on population make-up, but did not replace the indigenous Berber population.[44]

Moors—or more frequently their heads, often crowned—appear with some frequency in medieval European heraldry. The term ascribed to them in Anglo-Normanblazon (the language of English heraldry) is maure, though they are also sometimes calledmoore, blackmoor, blackamoor or negro.[36]Maures appear in European heraldry from at least as early as the 13th century,[37]and some have been attested as early as the 11th century in Italy,[37] where they have persisted in the local heraldry andvexillology well into modern times in Corsica and Sardinia.

Isidore of Seville, writing in the seventh century claimed the Latin word Maurus was derived from the Greek mauron, which is the Greek word for black.[10]

So not only did Arabs overlap physically with Blacks but Moor meant Black and Berber phenotype is indigenous to Africa? Berbers aren't Black yall

He isn't Black, he is Arab

 

[Bawon Samedi]

Here we go yet again...

It was in that Egyptian thread where you guys were talking about the Arabs being originally black,.

Arabs have been trading black slaves since the 7th century..that shyt didn't start in the 19th century

Again the Arab slave trade and Trans Sahara Slave trade are both two different things. I already this to @2Quik4UHoes. You two keep bringing up the Arab slave trade which has no purpose in this argument.

Here goes a book I have and read the first European explorer to reach Timbuktu and back and saw slaves traded along the routes ..

I'm actually aware of this book. And thanks for bringing it up since it indirectly proves my point with blacks only later being linked to the Trans Sahara Slave trade. The European explorer in question is German Heinrich Barth(and no he was not the first European to reach Timbuktu). You should note this book takes place around 1849; again the 19th century! Not only that but Heinrich Barth noted he encountered not just extensive slavery of Africans within the continent but also Caucasian slave girls in Nigerian courts! Which again suchs whites were still the predominate slaves going into the 19th century.

And also one should note that the traded in Timbuktu in its golden era were part of their society or imported European/Middle Eastern slaves.

You posting this book only reiterates that black slaves only came later in the Trans Sahara slave trade. You actually deflated your argument.

Black slaves being linked to the Trans Sahara Slave is only a imgination by Eurocentrics to explain away any black influence/origins in North Africa. You and @2Quik4UHoes fall into this myth. Until someone shows me a source stating or showing(not no darn YouTube video) a large body of black slaves being linked to the TSST prior to the 19th century, then it remains a Eurocentric myth that blacks were linked to the TSST prior to the 19th century. That is all.

 

[Bawon Samedi]

HOLY SH*T @Poitier YOUR THE MAN!!!

I wish I can rep you again! Even with our disagreements on some subjects your starting to become my favorite poster. You literally destroyed the myths in this thread. Especially West Africans being linked to Arab slave trade. And confirming that the TSST and Arab slave trade are two different things.

Also you confirmed YET AGAIN...That Europeans were the PREDOMINATE slaves prior to the 19th century.

 

[Bawon Samedi]

Also mind you Arab(like Berber) isn't a race but a pan-ethnicity.

 

[filial_piety]

Some were black, some weren't, I don't see what the big deal is.

Personally I think the vast majority were North African light skinned Berbers and/or Arab...while some were black Africans.

 

[Bawon Samedi]

Some were black, some weren't, I don't see what the big deal is.

Personally I think the vast majority were North African light skinned Berbers and/or Arab...while some were black Africans.

Did you not read any of the stuff we posted? The original invading Moors were dark skinned African Berbers. Fact. Light skinned Berbers only came later during the 14/15th century. Some weren't Black Africans. The majority were.

 

[filial_piety]

Did you not read any of the stuff we posted? The original invading Moors were dark skinned African Berbers. Fact. Light skinned Berbers only came later during the 14/15th century. Some weren't Black Africans. The majority were.

I'm aware that there are various sources of propaganda.

Are you of Moorish decent?

 

[Bawon Samedi]

Also I don't like the term Black African. Its very loose and you never hear White European or Yellow Asian.

Not only that but...

"Individuals with the same morphology do not necessarily cluster with each other by lineage, and a given lineage does not include only individuals with the same trait complex (or 'racial type'). Y-chromosome DNA from Africa alone suffices to make this point. Africa contains populations whose members have a range of external phenotypes. This variation has usually been described in terms of 'race' (Caucasoids, Pygmoids, Congoids, Khoisanoids). But the Y-chromosome clade defined by the PN2 transition (PN2/M35, PN2/M2) shatters the boundaries of phenotypically defined races and true breeding populations across a great geographical expanse. African peoples with a range of skin colors, hair forms and physiognomies have substantial percentages of males whose Y chromosomes form closely related clades with each other, but not with others who are phenotypically similar. The individuals in the morphologically or geographically defined 'races' are not characterized by 'private' distinct lineages restricted to each of them."(S O Y Keita, R A Kittles, et al. "Conceptualizing human variation," Nature Genetics 36, S17 - S20 (2004)

 

[Bawon Samedi]

I'm aware that there are various sources of propaganda.

Are you of Moorish decent?

What propaganda? Is that your counter argument.

Most of mines(and Poiters) are peered reviewed sources by people of European descent or people who were actually there during that period. Again what propaganda? We're merely putting the Moors in their African context where they belong like with the Ancient Egyptians or any African people Eurocentric's tried to remove from Africa.

And what does me being of Moorish descent have to do with anything. Anyone can study anyone's history.

 

[filial_piety]

What propaganda? Is that your counter argument.

Most of mines(and Poiters) are peered reviewed sources by people of European descent or people who were actually there during that period. Again what propaganda? We're merely putting the Moors in their African context where they belong like with the Ancient Egyptians or any African people Eurocentric's tried to remove from Africa.

And what does me being of Moorish descent have to do with anything. Anyone can study anyone's history.

Quick question, are you a descendent of the Moors?

And when you guys go back and forth about this, who exactly are you arguing with or trying to convince in regards to your viewpoint?

Like when some of you say "the Moors and Egyptians were black!"...who exactly are you telling this to? What triggers this type of reaction? White Supremacists who say otherwise?

What do you expect to gain by convincing other black people that you think that the Moors were "black?"

 

[Poitier]

Quick question, are you a descendent of the Moors?

He is of indigenous African descent and that is all you need to know.

 

[filial_piety]

He is of indigenous African descent and that is all you need to know.

I'll take that as a "no"

 

[Poitier]

I'll take that as a "no"

I'll take that as "you have no response"

"Moorish descent"

 

[filial_piety]

I'll take that as "you have no response"

"Moorish descent"

LOL man you guys are just dying to get into an argument with someone about this...

For the room....is there any particular reason why any of you are interested in the history of the Moors?

 

[Bawon Samedi]

Quick question, are you a descendent of the Moors?

And when you guys go back and forth about this, who exactly are you arguing with or trying to convince in regards to your viewpoint?

Like when some of you say "the Moors and Egyptians were black!"...who exactly are you telling this to? What triggers this type of reaction?

I don't get what this has to do with the topic since its going off-topic. No I'm not off Moorish descent and it doesn't have an impact on this topic. I already told why topics like these are argued; to put the Moors rightly back in an African context where it belongs along with Ancient Egypt since theres a bias myth that North Africa always has been an extension of Europe or the Middle East. We as Africanist or students of Africa who study the history of Africa in full depth try to fix those mistakes. That is our purpose. That is that triggers these types of reactions. I would congratulate a person who is a student of Indian history for properly placing Indian history where it belongs and fixing the errors of Eurocentrism that has tried to claim the history of India as that of Aryan or Caucasoid.