European vs North American description of the Moors

[Poitier]

Trust me I'm holding back too since I think you're cool. What you're not getting is that the Trans Sahara Trade and Arab slave trade weren't the same trade. Not only that but the TST was not even controlled by Arabs but West Africans themselves.

1. I showed you two maps showing the two trades has totally different routes.
2. I showed you the slaves that were apart of the Arab slave trade weren't linked to the Trans Sahara trade.
3. But more importantly @Poitier showed in full detail that the two trades were not only extremely different but that European slaves were the primarily slaves taken by Arabs. And that West Africans were never linked with the Arab slave trade.

Again this was the Arab slave trade!

As you can see there is no routes going into the Sahara, West Africa, Northwest Africa or Southern Europe. This is the trade in which the Zanj were involved in. No links to the Trans Sahara Trade...

I think he is confusing it because Berbers/West Africans were also Arab.

 

[MostReal]

I think he is confusing it because Berbers/West Africans were also Arab.

probably but for some reason he doesn't think they were black when they were

 

[2Quik4UHoes]

Trust me I'm holding back too since I think you're cool. What you're not getting is that the Trans Sahara Trade and Arab slave trade weren't the same trade. Not only that but the TST was not even controlled by Arabs but West Africans themselves.

1. I showed you two maps showing the two trades has totally different routes.
2. I showed you the slaves that were apart of the Arab slave trade weren't linked to the Trans Sahara trade.
3. But more importantly @Poitier showed in full detail that the two trades were not only extremely different but that European slaves were the primarily slaves taken by Arabs. And that West Africans were never linked with the Arab slave trade.

Again this was the Arab slave trade!

As you can see there is no routes going into the Sahara, West Africa, Northwest Africa or Southern Europe. This is the trade in which the Zanj were involved in. No links to the Trans Sahara Trade...

What you're not understanding is that world economics as a whole was under the influence of Islamic World.

African Empires converted to Islam in order to have better dealings with the greater market which included India and China whom were also under Muslim influence. The Zanj rebellion absolutely turned off slave owners to East Africans and this stimulated the slave trade through the Sahara. The issue with linking maps or shyt like that is there's absolutely no context behind it, the East African slave trade was one arm of the greater slave market in the Muslim world. When I say that West Africans participated or were victims of this trade this doesn't disregard the greatness of those West African empires. But the Sahel is a vast place, and there were vulnerable communities that Tuaregs, Bedouins, Arabs, and yes Berbers, were involved in slave raiding even against their own fellow Muslims.

Plus you've been overstating the white slave thing, most of the time they were concubines, pages, or trusted eunuchs in charge of finances. To the Arab influenced world however, Africans were superior for that role in that they had more skills and uses for them. In al Andalus they had easy access to white slaves, so it was one of the chief exports to even more major hubs like Cairo, Mecca, Damascus, etc. This wasn't a case of Black Africans going to Spain and ruling over it alongside Arabs and Berbers, many of them were in fact slaves. Plus al Andalus was begun by an Arab prince from the ousted Umayyad Dynasty so I don't know where you got the idea that Berbers were solely responsible for Moorish culture. In fact, Moorish culture GAVE those Berbers a more progressive culture and they upheld the legacy. Again, I'm not saying Blacks didn't enjoy positions of privilege within Moorish society but there was a catch to this shyt and it's not good to put your head in the sand about it and chalk it up to "Eurocentric viewpoints".

I dunno, I think its cuz the Arab involvement in the rape and pillaging of Africa is hardly discussed like Europeans. Most of yall are of the Diaspora so yall gripe is with euro cacs and understandably so but as an Ethiopian its no secret to me that the rise of the Arabs fukked Africa up before euros even got there. Hell I take extreme pride in my culture but I'm also the first to admit Ethiopia was heavily involved in the slave trade and it's been less than 100 years since slavery was officially stomped out in the country. Same style slavery as the Arabs too with eunuchs, harems, and even plantations. It sucks to know, but it's a reality someone has to be willing to look at. Part of the danger of Afrocentric shyt is that it can become what you want to hear as oppose to what is, if you read all the credible Afrocentric scholars they acknowledged many of the things I just said in this post.

 

[Bawon Samedi]

I think he is confusing it because Berbers/West Africans were also Arab.

That can be the case.

 

[Poitier]

probably but for some reason he doesn't think they were black when they were

Yeah, I don't get the Berbers weren't/aren't Black narrative..... especially since migration from Mauritania and Libya into West Africa is more recent than migration East to West.

 

[Bawon Samedi]

probably but for some reason he doesn't think they were black when they were

Agreed. He has been differentiating Berbers from black when in fact Berbers are not even a monolithic group.

@2Quik4UHoes

I'll address your post later. Since its long. But again read @Poitier post...

 

[2Quik4UHoes]

lol, I really like how yall think the East African slave trade was the only portion of the Arab Slave trade. The Arab Slave trade encompassed huge portions of 3 different continents. But naw, them innocent sand cacs just traded East African slaves....they never harbored any racist views towards Black Africans. How foolish of me to think otherwise.

 

[Bawon Samedi]

lol, I really like how yall think the East African slave trade was the only portion of the Arab Slave trade. The Arab Slave trade encompassed huge portions of 3 different continents. But naw, them innocent sand cacs just traded East African slaves....they never harbored any racist views towards Black Africans. How foolish of me to think otherwise.

Again please for the sake of it read @Poitier post.

 

[2Quik4UHoes]

Agreed. He has been differentiating Berbers from black when in fact Berbers are not even a monolithic group.

@2Quik4UHoes

I'll address your post later. Since its long. But again read @Poitier post...

Nah yall are the confused ones. Berbers were still seen differently from Black Africans in those times, Arabs were racist towards them too and Berbers hated Arabs except for the adopting Islamic culture thing but when it came to the trade of Black African slaves they were just as willing as Arabs and Bedouins and Tuaregs were in the raids and the forced marches of hundreds of Black Africans. I keep saying Black Africans because it seems I really need to help yall in differentiating the two like are you tryna say a Berber in the 14th century would've been the same as a Mande speaker from some random spot deep within West Africa? Just stop it, Berbers and Black Africans within the dominant world trade/society of the time were not viewed the same or treated the same. Period.

 

[MostReal]

Nah yall are the confused ones. Berbers were still seen differently from Black Africans in those times, Arabs were racist towards them too and Berbers hated Arabs except for the adopting Islamic culture thing but when it came to the trade of Black African slaves they were just as willing as Arabs and Bedouins and Tuaregs were in the raids and the forced marches of hundreds of Black Africans. I keep saying Black Africans because it seems I really need to help yall in differentiating the two like are you tryna say a Berber in the 14th century would've been the same as a Mande speaker from some random spot deep within West Africa? Just stop it, Berbers and Black Africans within the dominant world trade/society of the time were not viewed the same or treated the same. Period.

So you really don't believe Berbers are black people?

That's like saying lightskinned African Americans aren't black because they are treated better than darkskinned blacks

 

[2Quik4UHoes]

Again please for the sake of it read @Poitier post.

Nah, you just need to read that book I linked. Try some John Henrik Clarke and Cheikh Anta Diop as well cuz they touched on these things.

lol@saving sand cacs. I'm sayin, do yall think European perceptions of Africans was just from African soldiers kickin their asses when Spain was under Islam? Europeans took a lot of ideas from the Arabs and spun it to an even more sadistic level. To not acknowledge the guilt of the Islamic era in creating the conditions necessary for the Atlantic slave trade and the racism born from it is to really sell shyt short. You can't see the full picture if you do that. Everything linked into a continuation of an assault on Africa and Africans, and I'm sorry to say but the more you really learn the more to realize that Moor shyt was shaky. Africans were better before that Moor shyt.

 

[Bawon Samedi]

Nah yall are the confused ones. Berbers were still seen differently from Black Africans in those times, Arabs were racist towards them too and Berbers hated Arabs except for the adopting Islamic culture thing but when it came to the trade of Black African slaves they were just as willing as Arabs and Bedouins and Tuaregs were in the raids and the forced marches of hundreds of Black Africans. I keep saying Black Africans because it seems I really need to help yall in differentiating the two like are you tryna say a Berber in the 14th century would've been the same as a Mande speaker from some random spot deep within West Africa? Just stop it, Berbers and Black Africans within the dominant world trade/society of the time were not viewed the same or treated the same. Period.

No they weren't. Please don't tell me you're ignoring all the stuff I posted about Berbers like the Masumda Berbers being descrbed as black and negro.

As for the 14th century, I said many times thats where we started seeing non-black Berbers.

 

[Bawon Samedi]

Nah, you just need to read that book I linked. Try some John Henrik Clarke and Cheikh Anta Diop as well cuz they touched on these things.

lol@saving sand cacs. I'm sayin, do yall think European perceptions of Africans was just from African soldiers kickin their asses when Spain was under Islam? Europeans took a lot of ideas from the Arabs and spun it to an even more sadistic level. To not acknowledge the guilt of the Islamic era in creating the conditions necessary for the Atlantic slave trade and the racism born from it is to really sell shyt short. You can't see the full picture if you do that. Everything linked into a continuation of an assault on Africa and Africans, and I'm sorry to say but the more you really learn the more to realize that Moor shyt was shaky. Africans were better before that Moor shyt.

The bolded explains literally everything. While I respect Diop a lot and he was pretty advanced for his time, he fell into the Eurocentric trap of view the Berbers as non-African. He even said the Berber language was not African but of European.

Dude the Berbers are African their Y-DNA says it alone.

 

[Poitier]

The Bafour people are a direct connection between Berbers and West Africans, no?

 

[2Quik4UHoes]

So you really don't believe Berbers are black people?

That's like saying lightskinned African Americans aren't black because they are treated better than darkskinned blacks

You can't be serious... Yall are not reading what I'm saying so I'ma put it into bullet points.

- During the time of the Moors, the Arabs/Muslims ran the known world on a great scheme of middlemanning, exploitation, and conquest.

- Arabs liked to have slaves. To this day they still have slaves.

- Arabs had ranks for different slaves and subjects in terms of race. To them it was like cars, except it was ownership of human beings.

- Arabs considered BLACK AFRICANS, as in , to be different from Berbers. <----This is the point I'm making that's continually missed.

- Berbers much preferred to be in the position of Arabs taking slaves n shyt because they themselves had been dominated by the Arabs.

- Berbers were involved in the Arab slave trade as raiders, transporters, and caravan guides. They were one of the most important factors of the Trans Saharan slave trade that had a boon following the Zanj rebellion.

- Berbers also saw themselves as different from Black Africans.

- al Andalus(Moorish Spain) was founded by Arabs and maintained the same standard as other hubs of Arab/Muslim influence. This included the ownership of Black Africans as slaves.

- Slavery in Islam was radically different from the American version. Europeans simply took a controlling portion of the Arab market already in place and applied their own sensibilities and standards to it. Many of which were adopted from the Arabs, including Moorish culture.

I know its nice to take pride in African shyt, but at best a black eunuch held some real sway in the Moorish court. I don't find anything noble in a Black man gettin his shyt chopped off just to live the good life. My Siddi nikkaz made their good life by force and created their own sultanates with armies and navies under the ownership of no one but them, but people want to take pride in the Moors?