European vs North American description of the Moors

[Deluuxe]

I just wanted to post this to back what I said in my last post.

"Moors" shown in the heraldry and family coat of arms are descendants of the existing black European groups existing in Europe and were not the Islamic Moors. pg 54 in and already so much heat . Spain/portugal and other places at certain times were ruled by Islamic Moors

 

[Poitier]

But Yemenis (the Arabs who conquered Berber lands) were mixed race themselves, no? @2Quik4UHoes @KidStranglehold

I'm struggling to see how any group of people who indigenously evolved in Africa are not Black? Berber-West African gene flow is probably more common than West African- East African gene flow. I once again bring up the Bafour people.

And why are we ranking African accomplishments? Why can't Siddis, Berbers, Egyptians, African Americans, Haitians, etc all get props?

And no, Berber treatment of West Africans doesn't negate that. If so, should Ancient Egypt be shunned for treatment of Nubians? Bantus of Khoisan? Black Americans of African immigrants?

If the Arab slave trade went West, I can't find record. Heck this dude was flourishing in the East: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tippu_Tip

Heck, a Google inquiry "Arab slave trade, West Africa" brings up nothing. Berbers and Yemenis are obviously not included under that umbrella,as no one would contest the Moors having West African slaves.

 

[Bawon Samedi]

@Poitier

Good post.

Just look at the Berbers Y-DNA alone and you'll easily get the picture. Along it also tracing back to East Africa.
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-RFDBC3Mrh...KA/tx02k-dvLNs/s1600/E_Snp_Phylogeography.jpg

The Proto-Berbers arrived to North Africa from Northeast Africa where the Afro-Asiatic language arose in the first place.

Yes the homogenous origins of Berbers is largely indigenous. Though some Eurocentrics try to say otherwise by only looking at their diverse mtDNA...

 

[2Quik4UHoes]

But Yemenis (the Arabs who conquered Berber lands) were mixed race themselves, no? @2Quik4UHoes @KidStranglehold

I'm struggling to see how any group of people who indigenously evolved in Africa are not Black? Berber-West African gene flow is probably more common than West African- East African gene flow. I once again bring up the Bafour people.

And why are we ranking African accomplishments? Why can't Siddis, Berbers, Egyptians, African Americans, Haitians, etc all get props?

And no, Berber treatment of West Africans doesn't negate that. If so, should Ancient Egypt be shunned for treatment of Nubians? Bantus of Khoisan? Black Americans of African immigrants?

If the Arab slave trade went West, I can't find record. Heck this dude was flourishing in the East: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tippu_Tip

Heck, a Google inquiry "Arab slave trade, West Africa" brings up nothing. Berbers and Yemenis are obviously not included under that umbrella,as no one would contest the Moors having West African slaves.

I don't know if they were mixed race or not but it's a very strong possibility since that whole peninsula absorbed different groups. I'm not even saying Moorish accomplishments are negated by the slave owning, I just don't think it's any point in ignoring the reality of it. Plus I know its wrong to rank shyt, but Moors are brought up all the time whereas a truly remarkable of Siddis is generally swept under the rug probably because they actually ran their shyt.

The Trans Saharan trade was a part of the wider Arab slave trade. Now I'm not saying a huge portion were shipped East, they tended to go North or to various Muslim kingdoms within Africa. The slave trade was essentially adopted by Europeans much later on but was from an established Arab model.

I'm not saying that Black Africans were ALL slaves in al Andalus or in the greater Islamic world, one of the more important figures was a Black poet from Iraq that brought all types of new fashions and standards(including deoderant) plus if a sultan's favorite concubine had a child by him she's set for life in the court. Hell, the slave society of Islam was a bit more benevolent than the European version but it was still fukked up. But it was still a reality that African slaves were in Moorish Spain just as every other place in Islamic society at the time. It was a very fukked up practice that had detrimental effects on Africa. Berbers were discriminated against, but it also turned them against Black Africans. I just personally find the Siddis to be a bit more impressive in terms of doing shyt in that era. Hell, the Siddis were still kickin even after the Moors fell off. They ain't go down till the British came.

I respectfully disagree.

Al-Jahiz (776-869) wrote that: "among the Blacks are counted the Sudanese, the Ethiopians, the Fezzan, the Berbers, the Copts, the Nubians, the Zaghawa, the Moors."

Al-Jahiz who himself was an Arab during that time. We're also inclined to view Berbers and Moors as one in the same, as we are Nubians and Ethiopians and Sudanese and Zaghawa. Berbers were definitely not sen as separate from blacks by foreigners at least until the 15th century.

lol, of course. I don't call them sand cacs for no reason they were racist towards anyone that was dark. Sand cacs discriminated against them Berbers on the grounds that they were darker than them. But Arabs of that time also knew the difference between a Berber and a Sub-Saharan African and made that distinction especially in the slave trade. I cited my quote earlier. Moors were a mix of Berbers and Black Africans so naturally they'd be considered as such. Arabs were as white as Europeans when it came to discrimination.

This whole time my dispute hasn't even been that big a deal. I never denied there were no free blacks, I never denied blacks didn't involvement in higher society. All I said was that it's peculiar to big up a slave society(with Black slaves as well as white) whereas slaves actually grouped together, called their own shots, were innovative, and became a feared group within the land of their would-be masters. I think the latter is much more noble, it reminds me of the maroon colonies throughout the Americas. But it's no big deal to see the one millionth thread on Moors, let me stop derailing this shyt..

 

[Poitier]

This whole time my dispute hasn't even been that big a deal. I never denied there were no free blacks, I never denied blacks didn't involvement in higher society. All I said was that it's peculiar to big up a slave society(with Black slaves as well as white) whereas slaves actually grouped together, called their own shots, were innovative, and became a feared group within the land of their would-be masters. I think the latter is much more noble, it reminds me of the maroon colonies throughout the Americas. But it's no big deal to see the one millionth thread on Moors, let me stop derailing this shyt..

fair enough

 

[Bawon Samedi]

@2Quik4UHoes

The only problem that I'm having with your argument is that you keep separating Berbers from Black Africans when Berber is really just a language group and not its own race. Similar to how Bantu is a language group and not race along with Khoisans. Again Arabs didn't see Berbers different from Sudanese(West Africans) prior to the 14th century but included them as blacks... That's literally the only problem that I'm having so far. Nothing else.

 

[2Quik4UHoes]

@2Quik4UHoes

The only problem that I'm having with your argument is that you keep separating Berbers from Black Africans when Berber is really just a language group and not its own race. Similar to how Bantu is a language group and not race along with Khoisans. Again Arabs didn't see Berbers different from Sudanese(West Africans) prior to the 14th century but included them as blacks... That's literally the only problem that I'm having so far. Nothing else.

All I'm saying is within the context of that particular time period and that wider society, I personally don't separate Berbers from Blacks my interest is in how things worked at that point in time. Arabs did lump Berbers with Blacks, Arabs discriminated against Berbers, but they also turned Berbers against Sub Saharan Africans through the implementation of the slave trade.

The greater point I was trying making that I should've been clear on is that behind that shyt was a cac overlord whether directly or indirectly through culture. I view the Arab's expansion into Africa as the beginning of the weakening of the continent, this isn't to say there weren't golden ages within that period but Islam's effects worked slower and more subtly whereas Europeans were more swift and flagrant. The Moors, imo, is a part of that legacy for better or worse. But there are other events by Black Africans in the Islamic world deserve more attention.

 

[Bawon Samedi]

All I'm saying is within the context of that particular time period and that wider society, I personally don't separate Berbers from Blacks my interest is in how things worked at that point in time. Arabs did lump Berbers with Blacks, Arabs discriminated against Berbers, but they also turned Berbers against Sub Saharan Africans through the implementation of the slave trade.

You should have elaborated on this earlier for less confusion. I do agree that Berbers were seperated from black Africans later on around the 14th century; that's where we start to see non-black Berbers e.g the Kabyle. This is why I asked people to name me a non-black Berber group that invaded Iberia during the 8th century. Because during that period there are no descriptions of Berbers being separate from Black Africans otherwise there would have been historical accounts that said so.

The greater point I was trying making that I should've been clear on is that behind that shyt was a cac overlord whether directly or indirectly through culture. I view the Arab's expansion into Africa as the beginning of the weakening of the continent, this isn't to say there weren't golden ages within that period but Islam's effects worked slower and more subtly whereas Europeans were more swift and flagrant. The Moors, imo, is a part of that legacy for better or worse. But there are other events by Black Africans in the Islamic world deserve more attention.

I understand. Also IMHO you shouldn't really link the Moors with the Islam alone because the Moors existed prior to Islam during the Romans. And while you look at the Moorish impact on the world as negative. I see negative but also positive with the Moors. The Moors did have a impact on the modern world(including Africa). They gave birth to scholasticism which made its way south and other things like rational theology which transformed the West into, well, the West... So its a no wonder why people, especially an Africanist would take interest or pride in studying the Moors. Since they alone refute the myth that people of African descent did not contribute at all to the world. I know you'll disagree but this is just my 2 cent.

 

[Bawon Samedi]

No I do not study the Moors because they were "blacks who conquered da white man!" Or "or black men who enslaved a bunch of white wimmins !" No my reason as I stated earlier were to put them back in the African library of history where they belong, but also because they refute the myth that Africans never made any contributions to the world. But like others have there have been other Africans who made contributions themselves. IMO I prefer learning about the people of Mali than the Moors because IMO the history of Mali refutes many myths about Africans to a greater degree.

 

[Mr swag]

What does Spain wiki say?

I don't really care much about Germany

 

[Thatrogueassdiaz]

Subs

 

[Mowgli]

America = where the nazis fled after ww2.

 

[satam55]

@Barnett Can you move this thread to the root?

 

[satam55]

you know the Moors had to be real nikkas after seeing this pic

PAWG'n since 1000 a.d.

What book is this pic from?

 

[Swagnificent]

What book is this pic from?

dunno. just found it online.