Alabama's Governor Signs Education Bill Allowing School Choice

[MeachTheMonster]

well first of all, i didnt say ONLY, i simply posted statistics that show that parental involvement is the most important factor, but there are exceptions to everything

And there are plenty of stats that show that students going to underfunded schools are at a disadvantage as well. My point is we know these poor kids are at a disadvantage already, why do we compound that disadvantage by sending them to shytty schools.
Educational Leadership:Beyond Instructional Leadership:Unequal School Funding in the United States

Given the evidence reviewed above, it seems obvious that students from disadvantaged families will suffer the most from the U.S. system of unequal school funding because these students are more likely to attend poorly funded public schools. In addition, one assumes that disadvantaged students would suffer particularly when they attend schools with inadequate funding, and research is beginning to support this assumption.
In his recent study, Harold Wenglinsky (1998) found that gaps in achievement between students from high and low socioeconomic-status homes are greater in poorly funded schools than in well-funded schools. And Elizabeth Harter (1999) reported that the achievement effects of funding levels associated with school upkeep are greater in schools serving impoverished students.

the only point i was making is that it takes more than money to fix a school, my point was not that that ONLY kids with good parents do well

That's an obvious point to make. Obviously the kids with more dedicated parents will perform better. Though I'm not sure what that has to do with the charter school debate.

yeah they can but like i said the public school system bureaucracy goes back 100 years so its hard to change



like i said, i dont think you even understand what a charter is, charter schools are public schools, the difference is that they dont operate under the public school bureaucracy, charter schools are independent

i thought it was known that charter schools are public schools, but apparently not

the difference between charter schools and public school isnt money, the difference is who runs the schools, i already gave you an example Chicagoans of the Year 2010: Tim King, Urban Prep Academy - Chicago magazine - January 2011 - Chicago anybody can open up a charter school and run it how they think it should be run, you cannot do that in public schools, in public schools it has to go through the unions and bunch of other rules that have been going on for 100 years

why any black person wants to support racist bureaucracy that has been around for 100 years is beyond me



again, maybe you need to look up what a charter school is, the definition of a charter school is a public school that operate independently, if you dont accept that definition i dont know what to tell you

I know what a charter school is by definition, but none of that matters when the government tells them "hey you better do what we say or we're cutting your money off" and if all public schools were closed like you advocate, the "unions and bunch of other rules" would just move to them. And it's not about supporting racist bureacracy, it's about supporting the kids. Taking money away from the kids that really need it in order to send SOME kids to charter schools that most times aren't better than the public schools they left, is a horible idea. Like I said it creates a huge divide in oportunity, and offers a false sense of progress on education. The poor kids that really need the help end up getting the short end of the stick.

well thats a problem according to you, IMO if a public school has failing students it shouldn't be funded, it should be closed

And that's exactly the problem with the education system. Schools worry more about not getting closed or loosing funding than actualy teaching the kids. So they employ strategies that exclude underachievers from their numbers by placing them In alternative programs. Or they teach the kids how pass the tests instead of how to think critically. Or they just push kids through knowing they don't have the tools needed to succeed. And this holds true for public and charter schools.

 

[GoPro]

Using the Mexican analogy. It's because my people aren't really being allowed across the boarder. They allow a couple of us that arI'm all fowell off to make it, but the boarder is closed for the poor people that really need it. This takes even more money away from the poor Mexican communities making it harder on the people we leave behind.

If charter schools started to receive more money. The kids stuck in public school will be worse off, and the charter schools would begin to have the same failings as public school. And it's a myth that charter schools are automaticaly better than public schools.
Charter Schools Might Not Be Better - On Education (usnews.com)



Charter schools just create a grater divide in opportunity. They don't help the poor kids that really need it. And the help it does offer comes at the expense of kids not lucky enough to find their way into a good charter school.

They're tying to allow more of us across the border, but you keep fighting it! They're trying to close failing public schools and open accountable charters, yet you keep acting against it!
A four-year old study, breh? I just went to credos website and the past couple of news articles all tout gains in performance.

And pardon me for being unPC, but Im all for segregating those who want to succeed from the knuckleheads who do nothing but disrupt and behave like crabs. It isn't fair for an Urkel to be stuck in the same classroom with a Pookie. There should be a hierarchy of schooling. Time to face reality, you can't save everybody, especially if some of them try their hardest not to be saved.

 

[theworldismine13]

And there are plenty of stats that show that students going to underfunded schools are at a disadvantage as well. My point is we know these poor kids are at a disadvantage already, why do we compound that disadvantage by sending them to shytty schools.
Educational Leadership:Beyond Instructional Leadership:Unequal School Funding in the United States

i dont get your point, that is exactly what i was responding to, im saying people interpret funding statistics to conclude that if we increased funding the schools would improve

when what is really going on is that people with more money are more involved with their children's academics then people with less money

so the point is what is going on is a cultural problem and a parental involvement problem more than a money problem

That's an obvious point to make. Obviously the kids with more dedicated parents will perform better. Though I'm not sure what that has to do with the charter school debate.

it has everything to do with you saying that increasing funding will fix the schools, im just explaining why increasing funding is not the key to fixing the schools, increasing parental involvement and addressing culture is the key

this is why i give the example of urban prep, Chicagoans of the Year 2010: Tim King, Urban Prep Academy - Chicago magazine - January 2011 - Chicago richer kids know from first grade that they are expected by their parents to go to college, poor kids parents dont have those expectations, so what urban prep is doing is compensating for the lack of parental guidance and creating an expectation to go to college

so the point is urban prep isnt successful because they have more money than public schools, its because they address culture and they compensate for bad parents

I know what a charter school is by definition, but none of that matters when the government tells them "hey you better do what we say or we're cutting your money off" and if all public schools were closed like you advocate, the "unions and bunch of other rules" would just move to them.

i can only repeat the definition of charters, charters are independent, of course people will try to take away their independence, what the hell do you think this whole argument is about that is going all over the country about charter schools?

of course charter schools will lose their independence if people like you have their way, that is why im arguing with you

And it's not about supporting racist bureacracy, it's about supporting the kids. Taking money away from the kids that really need it in order to send SOME kids to charter schools that most times aren't better than the public schools they left, is a horible idea. Like I said it creates a huge divide in oportunity, and offers a false sense of progress on education. The poor kids that really need the help end up getting the short end of the stick.

there is no evidence that charter schools are taking money away from public schools, that is a lie

and any divide is created because there are not enough charter schools, that is why i say the public schools should be replaced by charter schools and vouchers, that way there are no kids left behind

if public schools are working for some people that thos communities should keep their public schools, but public schools arent working for the black community so that is why schools in the black community should be replaced with charters and vouchers

And that's exactly the problem with the education system. Schools worry more about not getting closed or loosing funding than actualy teaching the kids. So they employ strategies that exclude underachievers from their numbers by placing them In alternative programs. Or they teach the kids how pass the tests instead of how to think critically. Or they just push kids through knowing they don't have the tools needed to succeed. And this holds true for public and charter schools.

i dont see anything wrong with putting underachievers in alternative programs or by closing failing schools or by making sure kids past the tests they are suppose to pass

 

[MeachTheMonster]

They're tying to allow more of us across the border, but you keep fighting it! They're trying to close failing public schools and open accountable charters, yet you keep acting against it!
A four-year old study, breh? I just went to credos website and the past couple of news articles all tout gains in performance.

And pardon me for being unPC, but Im all for segregating those who want to succeed from the knuckleheads who do nothing but disrupt and behave like crabs. It isn't fair for an Urkel to be stuck in the same classroom with a Pookie. There should be a hierarchy of schooling. Time to face reality, you can't save everybody, especially if some of them try their hardest not to be saved.

But they aren't opening the boarders. They are telling you the boarders are open, but when the immigrants get there, there are even more stipulations they must overcome, and even if they overcome those stipulations 3/4ths of the time they end up still in Mexico.

And your second paragraph sums it up perfectly. People such as yourself don't believe pookie deserves the same quality education as urkel. I disagree because this line of thinking is what creates the pookies of the world. You expect pookie to go take his education seriously when you nor the rest of the country does.

 

[MeachTheMonster]

i dont get your point, that is exactly what i was responding to, im saying people interpret funding statistics to conclude that if we increased funding the schools would improve

what is really going on is that people with more money are more involved with their children's academics then people with less money

so the point is what is going on is a cultural problem and a parental involvement problem more than a money problem

I guess you missed this part.

In his recent study, Harold Wenglinsky (1998) found that gaps in achievement between students from high and low socioeconomic-status homes are greater in poorly funded schools than in well-funded schools. And Elizabeth Harter (1999) reported that the achievement effects of funding levels associated with school upkeep are greater in schools serving impoverished students.

Poor kids with shytty parents need the money more than anyone else yet the get the least.

it has everything to do with you saying that increasing funding will fix the schools, im just explaining why increasing funding is not the key to fixing the schools, increasing parental involvement and addressing culture is the key

Funding is the key for poor kids because we already know they are at a disadvantage. You can't legislate parental involvement and culture. All you can do is give the kids the best opportunity possible outside their home. Charter schools in their current makeup don't offer the best opportunities. In your fantasy world with no public schools and unlimited funds to send kids to whatever school they want to then yeah that would maybe work out. But your stance is unrealistic and in your pursuit of utopia you plan to leave millions of kids behind.

this is why i give the example of urban prep, Chicagoans of the Year 2010: Tim King, Urban Prep Academy - Chicago magazine - January 2011 - Chicago richer kids know from first grade that they are expected by their parents to go to college, poor kids parents dont have those expectations, so what urban prep is doing is compensating for the lack of parental guidance and creating an expectation to go to college

so the point is urban prep isnt successful because they have more money than public schools, its because they address culture and they compensate for bad parents

Do you think it would be as succesful without books, or good teachers. With huge class sizes, with leaky roofs and no extracurricular activities. No computers, and shytty lesson plans. Do you think those kids would still excel?

i can only repeat the definition of charters, charters are independent, of course people will try to take away their independence, what the hell do you think this whole argument is about that is going all over the country about charter schools?

of course charter schools will lose their independence if people like you have their way, that is why im arguing with you

The only reason charters have independence is because they are unique, the minority. If they become the majority they will no longer have that uniqueness therefore they will no longer have the independence and the benefits they get from it.

there is no evidence that charter schools are taking money away from public schools, that is a lie

Money is limited. Any education money not going to public schools is taking money away from them

and any divide is created because there are not enough charter schools, that is why i say the public schools should be replaced by charter schools and vouchers, that way there are no kids left behind

if public schools are working for some people that thos communities should keep their public schools, but public schools arent working for the black community so that is why schools in the black community should be replaced with charters and vouchers

That's exactly how public schools are run and is exactly why we see the divide in the quality of education that American kids get. Poor black communities can't afford to fund their own schools, so they need goverment help. The government gives them money with stipulations attached, they meet those stipulations instead of teaching kids. What your advocating is turning charter schools into public schools.

i dont see anything wrong with putting underachievers in alternative programs or by closing failing schools or by making sure kids past the tests they are suppose to pass

That's it exactly you don't mind the divide and you advocate increasing it. Why even talk about charter schools? Public schools are doing a good job at keeping opportunities divided.

 

[theworldismine13]

I guess you missed this part.

Poor kids with shytty parents need the money more than anyone else yet the get the least.

i did read it and i have read similar assertions and that is the assertion that i am responding to

and im not against increasing funding, im saying i disagree that funding is the the real problem, i think people are misinterpreting those studies because they do not look at parental involvement and culture

Funding is the key for poor kids because we already know they are at a disadvantage. You can't legislate parental involvement and culture. All you can do is give the kids the best opportunity possible outside their home. Charter schools in their current makeup don't offer the best opportunities. In your fantasy world with no public schools and unlimited funds to send kids to whatever school they want to then yeah that would maybe work out. But your stance is unrealistic and in your pursuit of utopia you plan to leave millions of kids behind.

the problem is that you already admitted that your kids go to charter schools and that they are better than the public schools and i have offered examples of how charter schools address culture and parental involvement Chicagoans of the Year 2010: Tim King, Urban Prep Academy - Chicago magazine - January 2011 - Chicago

and what i am saying is being put into effect in new orleans where they are basically eliminating the public schools system and replacing it with charter schools and vouchers

so there is nothing unrealistic in what i am saying, what's happening is people like you are standing in the way of progress

Do you think it would be as succesful without books, or good teachers. With huge class sizes, with leaky roofs and no extracurricular activities. No computers, and shytty lesson plans. Do you think those kids would still excel?

no i dont, thats why i say those schools need to be shut down and replaced with charters and vouchers

The only reason charters have independence is because they are unique, the minority. If they become the majority they will no longer have that uniqueness therefore they will no longer have the independence and the benefits they get from it.

again, i can only repeat the definition of charter schools, charter schools are independent, if they become the majority they would still be independently run, i have no idea why you think they would stop being independent just because they are the majority

Money is limited. Any education money not going to public schools is taking money away from them

charter schools are public schools, so money that goes to charter schools is not taking money from the system, its just using the money more efficiently

That's exactly how public schools are run and is exactly why we see the divide in the quality of education that American kids get. Poor black communities can't afford to fund their own schools, so they need goverment help. The government gives them money with stipulations attached, they meet those stipulations instead of teaching kids. What your advocating is turning charter schools into public schools.

of course money comes with stipulations, and if a school doesnt meet those stipulations then the school should be shut down, that is the way it should be

what i am advocating is high standards and having consequences for failure

That's it exactly you don't mind the divide and you advocate increasing it. Why even talk about charter schools? Public schools are doing a good job at keeping opportunities divided.

i have no idea what you are talking about, the basic point is that people should have as many choices as possible, im not creating a divide,what i am saying would expand the options for poor black people, as poor black people get more choices to go to charter schools and private schools the divide will decrease not increase

 

[MeachTheMonster]

I'll say this and then I'm done.

The advantages of charter schools are overblown. Advocating all or most charter schools diminishes those advantages even more and creates an even larger divide in educational opportunity than what we already have.

If we can find enough money to totaly overhaul the educational system then we'd have enough money to fix it as it is. I don't think we will have enough money to do either, so I advocate fixing the existing schools and school systems.

 

[theworldismine13]

I'll say this and then I'm done.

The advantages of charter schools are overblown. Advocating all or most charter schools diminishes those advantages even more and creates an even larger divide in educational opportunity than what we already have.

If we can find enough money to totaly overhaul the educational system then we'd have enough money to fix it as it is. I don't think we will have enough money to do either, so I advocate fixing the existing schools and school systems.

and again, charter schools do not require more money and neither do vouchers, charter schools are simply a more efficient use of money, if anything it would save money to switch to charters and vouchers

and expanding the choices poor black parents have would reduce the divide not increase it and on top of that charters and vouchers represent a business opportunity for the black community and a chance for black educators with vision to implement their innovative ideas

 

[Ms~Opinionated]

Using the Mexican analogy. It's because my people aren't really being allowed across the boarder. They allow a couple of us that are well off to make it, but the boarder is closed for the poor people that really need it. This takes even more money away from the poor Mexican communities making it harder on the people we leave behind.

If charter schools started to receive more money. The kids stuck in public school will be worse off, and the charter schools would begin to have the same failings as public school. And it's a myth that charter schools are automaticaly better than public schools.
Charter Schools Might Not Be Better - On Education (usnews.com)



Charter schools just create a grater divide in opportunity. They don't help the poor kids that really need it. And the help it does offer comes at the expense of kids not lucky enough to find their way into a good charter school.

Really?? You should take your kids out of charter school and put them back in public school if that is how you feel.

Leave those spots open for people who will actually appreciate it. Why did you put your kids into a charter school anyway?

Anyone who has Amazon Prime can watch this documentary called The Lottery for free. It is the most heartbreaking documentary I have ever seen in my life. I cried in the end. It follows NY families who are trying to get their kids into charter schools. You should have seen the face of those kids who didn't get in, they cried. People don't understand that your best hope for your child is that they get a great education. That is very hard after 12 years in an inner city school.

My daughter goes to an inner city school and trust me, I put her on IXL.com all the time because her homework is dumb easy. She is an honor roll and super honor roll student, but I tell her that being an honor roll student here is not the same as being an honor roll student in the suburbs. I have to constantly push her to do higher level work at home, because the level of work they give her is .

So yeah, please take your children out of the charter school, because you clearly do not appreciate that they don't have to deal with the crazies in public school.

 

[MeachTheMonster]

Really?? You should take your kids out of charter school and put them back in public school if that is how you feel.

Leave those spots open for people who will actually appreciate it. Why did you put your kids into a charter school anyway?

Anyone who has Amazon Prime can watch this documentary called The Lottery for free. It is the most heartbreaking documentary I have ever seen in my life. I cried in the end. It follows NY families who are trying to get their kids into charter schools. You should have seen the face of those kids who didn't get in, they cried. People don't understand that your best hope for your child is that they get a great education. That is very hard after 12 years in an inner city school.

My daughter goes to an inner city school and trust me, I put her on IXL.com all the time because her homework is dumb easy. She is an honer roll and super honor roll student, but I tell her that being an honor roll student here is not the same as being an honor roll student in the suburbs. I have to constantly push her to do higher level work at home, because the level of work they give her is .

So yeah, please take your children out of the charter school, because you clearly do not appreciate that they don't have to deal with the crazies in public school.

who said i didn't appreciate it. I know full well what challenges poor students face at public schools. I also know that MOST charter schools don't alleviate those challenges and that MOST kids can't even get into charter schools. Therefore I advocate fixing the schools that they go to. As of right now charter school and voucher funding is a way for the goverment to say they are doing something for the inner city kids, without actualy fixing the problems in the inner city.

 

[Ms~Opinionated]

who said i didn't appreciate it. I know full well what challenges poor students face at public schools. I also know that MOST charter schools don't alleviate those challenges and that MOST kids can't even get into charter schools. Therefore I advocate fixing the schools that they go to. As of right now charter school and voucher funding is a way for the goverment to say they are doing something for the inner city kids, without actualy fixing the problems in the inner city.

what do you recommend the government do?

 

[MeachTheMonster]

what do you recommend the government do?

Schools should get equal funding accross the board.

 

[daze23]

The Alabama Department of Education has also said it has identified problems in the bill, from outdated information to unclear criteria for defining a "failing" school.

Speaker of the House Mike Hubbard has acknowledged that the bill needs to be revised. But as The Birmingham News' John Archibald tells WBHM today, any revisions will likely come after the bill becomes law, rather than have Bentley send the bill back to the legislators.

"There's the risk, if the governor does that, that the whole thing gets bogged down in the swamp that is the Legislature," Archibald says.

sounds like they're gonna push it through, with the promise it will be revised, and then it'll never get revised...

 

[Ms~Opinionated]

Schools should get equal funding accross the board.

Have you ever heard of an Abbott School district?

Abbott district - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Money is not the answer. You would just be throwing money down the drain.

That money could be spent elsewhere on more productive activities. Be happy that there are ALTERNATIVES to government run schools and you kids were lucky enough to get into one.

Choice is very important, nothing feels worse then not being given an option and that is what a lot of parents have to deal with, even those who want better.

That is why the end of that documentary was so sad, because it was like getting into that school was the difference between life and death for these kids. It was the difference between this man's son going to Harvard or ending up ... not reaching his potential.

I don't wait on the government to get its stuff together and most black people shouldn't either. The schools in primary black neighborhoods are terrible because of the government, and you can't leave because of government rules. So, I in no way wait on the government to change things. If you are stuck in one of these neighborhoods, the most you can do is change yourself and wait until you can leave.

 

[MeachTheMonster]

Have you ever heard of an Abbott School district?

Abbott district - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Money is not the answer. You would just be throwing money down the drain.

That money could be spent elsewhere on more productive activities. Be happy that there are ALTERNATIVES to government run schools and you kids were lucky enough to get into one.

Choice is very important, nothing feels worse then not being given an option and that is what a lot of parents have to deal with, even those who want better.

That is why the end of that documentary was so sad, because it was like getting into that school was the difference between life and death for these kids. It was the difference between this man's son going to Harvard or ending up ... not reaching his potential.

I don't wait on the government to get its stuff together and most black people shouldn't either. The schools in primary black neighborhoods are terrible because of the government, and you can't leave because of government rules. So, I in no way wait on the government to change things. If you are stuck in one of these neighborhoods, the most you can do is change yourself and wait until you can leave.

None of that matters. Kids deserve to be given equal opportunities anything less than that is a failure to me. This idea that poor kids don't deserve quality schools is sickening and is the reason for the large achievement divide we have now.