Why jason collins doesnt impress me

[MeachTheMonster]

Im surprised at this...you are one of the more thoughtful and engaging posters around. Im unclear why you're taking this angle so forcefully.

Because gay people get passes and applause for things straight people would be condemned for. And this is one of those instances.

You cant remove societal pressures away from this conversation, which is highly discriminatory and injurious towards gay americans. Coming out is psychologically torturous ---- to know one will have to face unrelenting bigotry and hatred, and a compromised way of life.

I never said the societal pressures were not there. I said people are still judged by their own actions regardless of what outside influences shaped them. I understand why he did what he did, but that still doesn't excuse him for the hurt and pain he caused along the way.

So "lies and deceit" is an intellectually incurious way of defining his relationship with his ex-fiancee. More than likely he loved her, and wanted to make it work, but he ultimately could not deny who he was for any longer. The relationship ended like any other --- and there are often a million reasons why relationships fall by the wayside. Im sure his ex-fiancee is bitter and a bit embarrassed, but you are reaching considerably to try to project malice on to Collins here.

People lie to and deceive people they love everyday. If a person does not love/understand themselves well enough to be a good husband/wife regardless of the reason, they shouldn't be stringing another person along until they get their own emotions in check. I never said there was intentional malice on his part. But at the end of the day damage was done and he was the perpetrator.

I think Collins is definitely a hero for coming out, and embracing hatred, so as to make it easier for other gay Americans to feel comfortable with who they are. I had a gay friend who tried to jump off of a bridge before he came out, because he was so tortured on the inside. Sht aint a game.

I disagree. The man that stands up and says "I'm gay" BEFORE tearing up someone's heart and making millions of dollars is the hero. This dude is an opportunist. He was straight when it was beneficial to him and now he's come out when being gay is beneficial to him.( I believe MOST people behave this way. Only gay people get a pass for it. The ones that don't are the true "hero's") In the meantime a woman lost 8+ years of her life to a lie that was never going to happen.

 

[tru_m.a.c]

Nope I'm happily married. And I am appalled by the way some people view sex and relationships, gay or straight.

The endless passes and y'all do for gay folks is what kills me.

If this guy was straight and mislead a woman for 8 years then left her, you would not be defending him.

nikka yes I would.

Sir I get bytches. Misleading women is a necessary evil in this game of life. "Male honesty is career suicide."

I dap Kobe for misleading his wife. I dap Lebron for misleading his wife. I dap the greatest of all time Jeter for fukkn every good girl in hollywood who thought he would make her "Mrs. NY" and left her at the recycling bin for the next lame to come pick up.

Ive only told one woman i would marry them...i kept my promise

Ive never strung a girl along even for 8 days

aiight nikka. Says who, you? That's the only woman you fukked in your life? You think there's a moral difference between gaming a broad to smash for a couple of months and gaming a broad over 8 years. Is timing not everything?

Unless you stole your girl from someone, the fact that she was available should let you know you were lucky. She coulda easily been someone else's play toy and would've been emotionally and socially shut off to anyone else.

We all string bishes along. Stop it.

 

[MeachTheMonster]

nikka yes I would.

Sir I get bytches. Misleading women is a necessary evil in this game of life. "Male honesty is career suicide."

I dap Kobe for misleading his wife. I dap Lebron for misleading his wife. I dap the greatest of all time Jeter for fukkn every good girl in hollywood who thought he would make her "Mrs. NY" and left her at the recycling bin for the next lame to come pick up.



aiight nikka. Says who, you? That's the only woman you fukked in your life? You think there's a moral difference between gaming a broad to smash for a couple of months and gaming a broad over 8 years. Is timing not everything?

Unless you stole your girl from someone, the fact that she was available should let you know you were lucky. She coulda easily been someone else's play toy and would've been emotionally and socially shut off to anyone else.

We all string bishes along. Stop it.

Well I think you've proven that the only one with fukked up morals is you

 

[daze23]

the-coli: we all make 6 figures and stay loyal to females

 

[No_bammer_weed]

Because gay people get passes and applause for things straight people would be condemned for. And this is one of those instances.


I never said the societal pressures were not there. I said people are still judged by their own actions regardless of what outside influences shaped them. I understand why he did what he did, but that still doesn't excuse him for the hurt and pain he caused along the way.


People lie to and deceive people they love everyday. If a person does not love/understand themselves well enough to be a good husband/wife regardless of the reason, they shouldn't be stringing another person along until they get their own emotions in check. I never said there was intentional malice on his part. But at the end of the day damage was done and he was the perpetrator.


I disagree. The man that stands up and says "I'm gay" BEFORE tearing up someone's heart and making millions of dollars is the hero. This dude is an opportunist. He was straight when it was beneficial to him and now he's come out when being gay is beneficial to him.( I believe MOST people behave this way. Only gay people get a pass for it. The ones that don't are the true "hero's") In the meantime a woman lost 8+ years of her life to a lie that was never going to happen.

You did say Collins was malicious here, by claiming earlier that the relationship was built on "lies and deceit". Im not trying to dismiss the pain caused over a broken relationship, but to simplify matters he fell out of love with her. This is a free country, and one isnt obligated to another person, especially someone with whom he or she is not legally married.

 

[The Real]

It's hard to know someone's personal psychology. We got folks like Michelle Bachman's husband who have convinced themselves that they are "cured" of their homosexual tendencies. Who is to say Collins' psychological denial wasn't on that same level for a long time? The psychological and social pressures on some people are definitely strong enough to create those kinds of mental complexes. It's not a simple matter where we can say for sure that he himself was aware of his homosexuality on a conscious level and then intentionally suppressed it. Self-hating Black folks, to use a similar example, have and continue to do some of the most outlandish mental gymnastics, consciously and unconsciously. The same could be true for him.

 

[tru_m.a.c]

Well I think you've proven that the only one with fukked up morals is you

I never denied it. I actually in it every day.

I said these pretend stances on morals is crazy. Why come into this thread and rail about a gay man's morals? Why not join us in this thread? Or rather why not just post ALL day in TLR? You'd in there

http://www.the-coli.com/locker-room...-don%92t-want-make-your-20s.html#.UYP6IEpKbEs

I'm sure your lifetime relationship with females only rivals Jesus himself

 

[Julius Skrrvin]

It's hard to know someone's personal psychology. We got folks like Michelle Bachman's husband who have convinced themselves that they are "cured" of their homosexual tendencies. Who is to say Collins' psychological denial wasn't on that same level for a long time? The psychological and social pressures on some people are definitely strong enough to create those kinds of mental complexes. It's not a simple matter where we can say for sure that he himself was aware of his homosexuality on a conscious level and then intentionally suppressed it. Self-hating Black folks, to use a similar example, have and continue to do some of the most outlandish mental gymnastics, consciously and unconsciously. The same could be true for him.

waiiit. bachmanns boy is one of those 'cured gays?' i thought he was still in the closet

 

[MeachTheMonster]

You did say Collins was malicious here, by claiming earlier that the relationship was built on "lies and deceit". Im not trying to dismiss the pain caused over a broken relationship, but to simplify matters he fell out of love with her. This is a free country, and one isnt obligated to another person, especially someone with whom he or she is not legally married.

Was the relationship not built on lies and deceit? Whether he was lying to himself or her, he was lying to someone. The correct course of action would have been to be honest with himself and her, and deal with his own demons before telling her he wanted to be with her forever. In interviews he admited that he knew he was gay, so yes he did deceive her.

In this free country, if a straight person leads another person on for 8 years and promises to marry that person, then all of a sudden decides they don't want to anymore, they would not be applauded as a hero. Their actions would be condemned, especially if the reason for the break up was there all along and they hid it from their mate.

 

[MeachTheMonster]

It's hard to know someone's personal psychology. We got folks like Michelle Bachman's husband who have convinced themselves that they are "cured" of their homosexual tendencies. Who is to say Collins' psychological denial wasn't on that same level for a long time? The psychological and social pressures on some people are definitely strong enough to create those kinds of mental complexes. It's not a simple matter where we can say for sure that he himself was aware of his homosexuality on a conscious level and then intentionally suppressed it. Self-hating Black folks, to use a similar example, have and continue to do some of the most outlandish mental gymnastics, consciously and unconsciously. The same could be true for him.

Well he's admited that he knew he was wrong, and that he was misleading his fiancé.

Also does any of this excuse him for his actions?

You brung up "self hating black folks" they are confused as hell, yet they still don't get a pass. Why should this dude?

 

[Sensitive Blake Griffin]

@Mowgli


I still disagree...i think he did string her along..a grown man in his late 20s just doesnt decide one morning "hey imma try some dyck today for a change"

By that age you definitely know what you like and you know theres no changing it...why would you fukk with someone elses valuable time and give them false hope for 8 years unless your a self centered douche...

Imagine your sister had waited on some guy from when she was 28 and when she turned 36 and thought they would settle down and have some kids he "comes out"......most people would be upset ....fists will fly not confetti



And thats my point ...i dont think despicable is a heroic quality

Look. This dude was dealing with stuff that we're unfamiliar with, he was probably in a lot of denial. You nor I can make a judgment because we don't know what went down and the feelings between the two. This isn't s clear cut black and white situation. If His own girl didn't know he was gay I would argue he probably didn't engage in much homosex. He isn't a hero but that doesn't change much.

 

[No_bammer_weed]

Was the relationship not built on lies and deceit? Whether he was lying to himself or her, he was lying to someone. The correct course of action would have been to be honest with himself and her, and deal with his own demons before telling her he wanted to be with her forever. In interviews he admited that he knew he was gay, so yes he did deceive her.

In this free country, if a straight person leads another person on for 8 years and promises to marry that person, then all of a sudden decides they don't want to anymore, they would not be applauded as a hero. Their actions would be condemned, especially if the reason for the break up was there all along and they hid it from their mate.

He was lying to himself...thats what an environment of bigotry can promote internally within a person's being. You're positioning Collins as cold and calculating, as if hurting his fiancee was his master plan all along. Like I said, you are a very bright person, and highly engaging as a poster, but I am disappointed at this cognitive incuriosity.

 

[daze23]

waiiit. bachmanns boy is one of those 'cured gays?' i thought he was still in the closet

I don't remember the whole story, and don't feel like googling, but her hubby ran some kind of thing where they "cure the gays"

 

[MeachTheMonster]

He was lying to himself...thats what an environment of bigotry can promote internally within a person's being. You're positioning Collins as cold and calculating, as if hurting his fiancee was his master plan all along. Like I said, you are a very bright person, and highly engaging as a poster, but I am disappointed at this cognitive incuriosity.

Where did I say this?

In fact I said he made a mistake, and have admitted that societal pressures push people to make these types of mistakes all the time. What also happens all the time is that people are held accountable for their mistakes regardless of the reasoning behind them.

This is what happens whenever a discussion about "gay" comes up. Anyone who is not applauding the gay person or their actions is automaticaly framed as mean or bigoted. What I'm arguing is for gay people to be held to the same standards as the rest of us. I'm a young black man, I have plenty of societal pressures to deal with myself. If I make a mistake "societal pressures" would not be accepted as an excuse, and it shouldn't be.

 

[The Real]

Well he's admited that he knew he was wrong, and that he was misleading his fiancé.

Also does any of this excuse him for his actions?

You brung up "self hating black folks" they are confused as hell, yet they still don't get a pass. Why should this dude?

He was definitely misleading her in some sense, but he could have been misleading himself, too, and if he was, then I don't find it useful to demonize him for it, considering the environment that produces this behavior. Self-hating Black folks might or might not get a pass, depending on the circumstance. My whole point was that these are complicated psychological phenomena- even in the case of the self-hating Black folks, there are instances where it can't simply be said that they knew they were in the wrong, or were consciously misleading themselves about their beliefs.

waiiit. bachmanns boy is one of those 'cured gays?' i thought he was still in the closet

Well, he runs a clinic that supposedly cures them, plus he said some things in an interview about how it's totally normal to have "curiosity" and to "experiment" when you're a teen, and that thoughts are different from actually doing homosexual acts, and it was pretty obvious he was drawing on personal experience there from the way he talked about it. I think it's almost certain that he at least has some non-hetero tendencies which he believes he has under control.