The ppl with insurance in Italy don’t have this problem. I’m a let this convo go. Y’all obvious believe what u believe.
Universal Healthcare (M4all): Italy’s government chooses if you live or die with/out the Coronavirus
- Thread starter Warren Moon
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The ppl with insurance in Italy don’t have this problem. I’m a let this convo go. Y’all obvious believe what u believe.
NPR Choice page. Italy's problem's have nothing to do with single payer.
Not talking about their problems. I’m talking about them choosing who lives and dies. But I’m letting this go. Ppl are trying to act dumb.
You might have a point, but we have to wait and see. you are basically comparing The American system in peacetime vs the Italian system in ultra crisis mode. We have not been pushed to the breaking point like the Italian system, we'll see if the law of transfer prevents medical authorities from making these kinds of tough choices but I doubt it.
DonFrancisco
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What’s you score? Do you have enough points to live???
The Extraordinary Decisions Facing Italian Doctors
Today, Italy has 10,149 cases of the coronavirus. There are now simply too many patients for each one of them to receive adequate care. Doctors and nurses are unable to tend to everybody. They lack machines to ventilate all those gasping for air.
Now the Italian College of Anesthesia, Analgesia, Resuscitation and Intensive Care (SIAARTI) has published guidelines for the criteria that doctors and nurses should follow as these already extraordinary circumstances worsen. The document begins by likening the moral choices Italian doctors may face to the forms of wartime triage that are required in the field of “catastrophe medicine.” Instead of providing intensive care to all patients who need it, the authors suggest, it may become necessary to follow “the most widely shared criteria regarding distributive justice and the appropriate allocation of limited health resources.”
The principle they settle upon is utilitarian. “Informed by the principle of maximizing benefits for the largest number,” they suggest that “the allocation criteria need to guarantee that those patients with the highest chance of therapeutic success will retain access to intensive care.
The authors, who are medical doctors, then deduce a set of concrete recommendations for how to manage these impossible choices, including this: “It may become necessary to establish an age limit for access to intensive care.”
Those who are too old to have a high likelihood of recovery, or who have too low a number of “life-years” left even if they should survive, would be left to die. This sounds cruel, but the alternative, the document argues, is no better. “In case of a total saturation of resources, maintaining the criterion of ‘first come, first served’ would amount to a decision to exclude late-arriving patients from access to intensive care.”
In addition to age, doctors and nurses are also advised to take a patient’s overall state of health into account: “The presence of comorbidities needs to be carefully evaluated.” This is in part because early studies of the virus seem to suggest that patients with serious preexisting health conditions are significantly more likely to die. But it is also because patients in a worse state of overall health could require a greater share of scarce resources to survive: “What might be a relatively short treatment course in healthier people could be longer and more resource-consuming in the case of older or more fragile patients.”
These guidelines apply even to patients who require intensive care for reasons other than the coronavirus, because they too make demands on the same scarce medical resources. As the document clarifies, “These criteria apply to all patients in intensive care, not just those infected with CoVid-19.”
I hope none of y’all mommas have cancer and in the hospital. If the hospital gets over run during an epidemic.
She dies.
And there ain’t shyt u can do about it, you can’t even try to transfer her to a different hospital. It’s illegal
Be careful what u wish for
This happens everyday in the US. Insurances will deny like crazy and hospitals will dump patients out. Anyone in long term care knows about dump day which is a Thursday or Friday
No hospital is dumping ppl who are in the icu.
DonFrancisco
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Yes but as soon as they stabilize they are gone. Hospitals will lie their ass off to dump patients out. I worked in admissions and half my job was to figure out what hospitals hide from us. If we didn't take them they would be dumped out. Even if the risk for ICU care is imminent
DonFrancisco
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They will skirt MTALA as much as possible.
studies show black people do worse, even when controlling for income. Having money does not eliminate racism in healthcare.
Your second point is hugely subjective and impossible to prove one way or the other.
Some universal healthcare schemes (like in germany/the netherlands) are all private and do extremely well, some are a mix (australia, switzerland, korea) and do extremely well, others are all government run ( Taiwan, UK,Canada) and also do very well.
Turn off your ideological propaganda machine and just engage with the reality that there are many ways to properly run a national healthcare system and the way we do it in the U.S right now is not one of them.Resources are *sometimes* better allocated by market forces and sometimes they are not, it's up to us to find a proper equilibrium.
DonFrancisco
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Also insurance will deny care even if the person even if they are too sick to go home.
If this happens now image what would happen with a 20-30% surge?
If this happens now image what would happen with a 20-30% surge?
prove it
private hospitals still had open beds for ppl and gave them away.
Italy's health system at limit in virus-struck Lombardy
they did not have capacity issues in anyway.
in fact, UK is about to have the same issue. They need more beds bc they’re filling up to capacity. They’re public system is overwhelmed
Private hospitals that take private insurance have plenty still.
Boris Johnson to evoke Winston Churchill in a plea to private hospitals | Daily Mail Online
I get you may have grandiose ideas on how M4all will work. But the facts are the facts.
No, it guarantees it by eliminating possibly the only incentive for nazis to aid blacks.
That said, nothing I’ve seen this crisis supports m4a... as someone else pointed out, no system was/is prepared for this.
What I have seen is gross government incompetence as usual...
If you want to blame trump and pretend the president isnt part(or the head) of our government that’s cool...
But I stand by ‘government has done a terrible job in handling this.’
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the next guy
Superstar
This is the right answer.
lNo, it guarantees it by eliminating possibly the only incentive for nazis to aid blacks.
That said, nothing I’ve seen this crisis supports m4a... as someone else pointed out, no system was/is prepared for this.
What I have seen is gross government incompetence as usual...
If you want to blame trump and pretend the president isnt part(or the head) of our government that’s cool...
But I stand by government has done a terrible job in handling this.
the original point, before all of this digression is that Governments can run healthcare systems efficiently and effectively as has been proven in countries around the world.
The market sometimes, but does not always allocate resources better than the public sector.
