The Official "Better Call Saul" Season 3 Thread

[yseJ]

I think I saw dude from that scene getting choked out in the promo too

Yeah that's Krazy 8. He has a knack for getting choked

 

[yseJ]

So apparently the fire station that Gus visited last week is the same one Walt left Holly in from "Ozymandias".

Fred.

Wait that wasn't obvious?

 

[yseJ]

My bad guys, I should've explained where "lawful evil" comes from.

It's a "Dungeons & Dragons" term. I've never played it but for whatever reason their alignment chart (chaotic evil to lawful good) caught on in pop culture and people were assigning alignments to characters from fiction.

Not an actual spoiler, but the picture is big:

Spoiler

Evil in this case doesn't necessarily mean Hitler. It means they place something (family, in the case of Tywin Lannister) or actual law (in the case of Chuck McGill) above doing the right thing. Or, it could mean a villain that operates within their own moral code (like Gus Fring).

One character can also be multiple alignments. Kim Wexler is lawful good because she tries to do the right thing while following the law....but she's also chaotic good because she gets off on running scams. Avon Barksdale would actually be closer to lawful evil than chaotic neutral, too.

Anyway, I hope this clears it up.

Fred.

I know what lawful evil means. I'm a big CRPG fan. Probably played most pc rpgs worth a damn starting from shyt, either Wizardry series or Ultima series. I mean I actually remember most rules of AD&D editions and shyt

Chuck isn't lawful evil. he's definitely lawful, but evil he's not.

 

[RickyGQ]

Chuck is the definition of lawful evil.

Fred.

Can someone break down these categories for me? Heard them talk about it on the afterbuzz podcast this morning.

 

[RickyGQ]

My bad guys, I should've explained where "lawful evil" comes from.

It's a "Dungeons & Dragons" term. I've never played it but for whatever reason their alignment chart (chaotic evil to lawful good) caught on in pop culture and people were assigning alignments to characters from fiction.

Not an actual spoiler, but the picture is big:

Spoiler

Evil in this case doesn't necessarily mean Hitler. It means they place something (family, in the case of Tywin Lannister) or actual law (in the case of Chuck McGill) above doing the right thing. Or, it could mean a villain that operates within their own moral code (like Gus Fring).

One character can also be multiple alignments. Kim Wexler is lawful good because she tries to do the right thing while following the law....but she's also chaotic good because she gets off on running scams. Avon Barksdale would actually be closer to lawful evil than chaotic neutral, too.

Anyway, I hope this clears it up.

Fred.

My bad, props dog.

 

[Czerka]

Yea cause of fring

Get the fukk outta here. The fring stuff is cool but the chuck and Saul drama is what defines this show. It's finally come to a climax this season

 

[hex]

I know what lawful evil means. I'm a big CRPG fan. Probably played most pc rpgs worth a damn starting from shyt, either Wizardry series or Ultima series. I mean I actually remember most rules of AD&D editions and shyt

Chuck isn't lawful evil. he's definitely lawful, but evil he's not.

You just said he'd let someone die if saving their life was in some way illegal. Wasn't that you?

That would be considered a lawful evil action because it places order and law above someone's life. To extend the "Dungeons & Dragons" metaphor there's no way in hell a lawful good Paladin could do that and not have to atone in some way.

Like I said, I never played "D&D"....but I do have the 4.5 edition books on deck because their value went up and I was kinda half ass collecting them. The example you gave (placing law above the sanctity of life) is literally the same definition of lawful evil listed in "The Book Of Vile Darkness" under the section that defines evil. If you're an old school "D&D" guy maybe you're talking about some shyt before all that was updated, though.

Fred.

 

[Freddie.Cane]

Brehs did Jimmy just

 

[yseJ]

You just said he'd let someone die if saving their life was in some way illegal. Wasn't that you?

That would be considered a lawful evil action because it places order and law above someone's life. To extend the "Dungeons & Dragons" metaphor there's no way in hell a lawful good Paladin could do that and not have to atone in some way.

Like I said, I never played "D&D"....but I do have the 4.5 edition books on deck because their value went up and I was kinda half ass collecting them. The example you gave (placing law above the sanctity of life) is literally the same definition of lawful evil listed in "The Book Of Vile Darkness" under the section that defines evil. If you're an old school "D&D" guy maybe you're talking about some shyt before all that was updated, though.

Fred.

placing law and order above saving someone's life isn't evil. it's more agnostic. not fukking up traffic flow to save someone's life isn't inherently evil. if law says don't jump into the water and someone's drowning and you don't save him doesn't make you evil.

It's only evil if done with an intent to gain something personally, ie benefit. and that's exactly what's written in lawful evil definition in tabletops.

there is close to zero benefit to Chuck personally to keep Jimmy out of law. Chuck already knows he's a better lawyer than Jimmy. His ego being hurt isn't a big enough reason.
Chuck is really thinking he's doing Jimmy good by keeping him from law. Think of him as an overprotective parent who is so obsessed with doing the right thing it takes over

lawful evil characters are aware they are evil and they like being evil. they embrace getting benefits from abusing power. they don't abuse power in order to do "the right thing" morally.

literally the first Google turns this lengthy explanation up:
The Alignment System - Lawful Evil

you want a real lawful evil in breaking bad or bcs? Gus Fring is lawful evil

 

[OJ Simpsom]

Jimmy bringing a gold fish to the vet.

 

[hex]

placing law and order above saving someone's life isn't evil. it's more agnostic. not fukking up traffic flow to save someone's life isn't inherently evil. if law says don't jump into the water and someone's drowning and you don't save him doesn't make you evil.

It's only evil if done with an intent to gain something personally, ie benefit. and that's exactly what's written in lawful evil definition in tabletops.

there is close to zero benefit to Chuck personally to keep Jimmy out of law. Chuck already knows he's a better lawyer than Jimmy. His ego being hurt isn't a big enough reason.
Chuck is really thinking he's doing Jimmy good by keeping him from law. Think of him as an overprotective parent who is so obsessed with doing the right thing it takes over

lawful evil characters are aware they are evil and they like being evil. they embrace getting benefits from abusing power. they don't abuse power in order to do "the right thing" morally.

literally the first Google turns this lengthy explanation up:
The Alignment System - Lawful Evil

you want a real lawful evil in breaking bad or bcs? Gus Fring is lawful evil

Breh the very first sentence contradicts what you're saying. If you really believe Chuck would let someone die because saving them is illegal then he's lawful evil.

A lawful evil villain methodically takes what he wants within the limits of his code of conduct without regard for whom it hurts. He cares about tradition, loyalty, and order but not about freedom, dignity, or life.

That is Chuck. He cares about the prestige of being a lawyer and what it means to be a partner at the law firm but not about his own brother. And it's not even about "well, I think Jimmy would misuse the law". That would be noble. It's about "everyone loves Jimmy and what comes easily to him I have to struggle for". And nobody can call him out because he hides behind the word of the law. Even during his rant on Monday he couldn't keep it law related....he had to mention everyone loved Jimmy more when he was 9.

That makes him evil. Not like, Marlo Stansfield evil but enough to rank on one of these charts. Everything he does is justified by "well, it's the law" which leads to completely over the top moments like correcting how much money Jimmy owed over the cassette tape.

Lastly the source material you're quoting is from the 70's and 80's. The definition for lawful evil (or any alignment, really) is a lot broader in the later editions. Gus and Chuck can both be lawful evil and nowhere near each other morally.

If I get time later on I'll pull up the 4.5E stuff.

Fred.

 

[hex]

I'm gonna nerd out hard core for a sec.

Matter of fact @yseJ in the 4.5E "Manual Of The Planes", the lawful good/neutral plane Arcadia lost a layer (Menausus) to The Clockwork Nirvana (a strictly law based plane) solely because of the number of Formians (law based creatures) that were living on it.

So by the new rules....too much law = you literally cannot be considered good. And if law supersedes doing the right thing, you shift to evil.

Fred.

 

[The Devil's Advocate]

That... doesn't sound right.

During the flashback in BB it looks like Gus is not even a drug dealer yet, he looks naive and unexperienced. The whole reason Eladio felt disrespected was because Gus gave "samples" to Eladio's people so Eladio would summon Gus to a meeting and Gus could pitch him about being his meth producer. Eladio felt manipulated. But if by this time Gus is already kicking up millions of dollars every month then the flashback in BB doesn't make much sense.

i'm checking the podcast now

vince and a few other people (writers, directors, set people) do it every week... they usually let in on backstory and explain shyt we see.. but its mostly technical shyt about the set and the angles and blah blah blah... it's really fukking boring but they drop gems every so often



ok you're absolutely right

he just said the bb flashbacks were late 80s... this flashback is 1999... and breaking bad poisons them in 2007


and apparently, hector and gus are both moving meth.. the don was having them compete against each other

 

[The Devil's Advocate]

If Chuck is evil then Jimmy is Satan, it's funny how people will excuse Jimmy's actions as the result of his pressing from Chuck but totally divorce the fact that Jimmy and Chuck had decades of interactions pre-the start of this conflict that informed the way their relationship works now, with Jimmy largely on the wrong side of those situations and (and yes, Chuck was so evil when he was reading child Jimmy children's books and when he was tucking Jimmy in to go to sleep out of concern for him back in season one, and so on so forth), and when combined with his mental illness and how it exaberates his character/ego issues, viewers choose to ignore it while continuously absolving Jimmy.

Chuck is hypocritical and morally repugnant/beyond the threshold of reasonable action to be clear, and I was half rooting for this to happen and half-sympathizing with him, but the way viewers keep trying to dehumanize him is just ridiculous (people go as far as trying to call Chuck a sociopath which is blatantly false, or chop up any positive things he's done with Jimmy in his life as being just am extension of his power playing as if Chuck can't be a multi-dimensional individial).

I wonder how many of y'all attacking Chuck were jerking Walter White off back on Breaking Bad.

exactly

THIS DUDE ROBBED HIS OWN PARENTS BLIND UNTIL THE DAY THEY DIED

i have a brother... just let me find out he doing this shyt.. and then my parents not only not believing it... but got me flying cross country to bail him out of jail repeatedly

even after that... after i take care of them.. after i take care of him... after i bust my ass for decades to become a partner of a prestigious law firm... i still get his ass a job

and now he wants to be a lawyer and have my name attached to this shyt.. work in my company... and fukked up, illegal type of fukkery, is going to be placed on me and my name and my company


nah fukk him.. i wouldn't even have got that little nikka a job in the first place... let alone let him have some powerful position at my company. hell fukking nah



now i wouldn't have set him up for the fall and done all that... but he'd be working that mail room at ups cause it damn sure wouldn't be with me

 

[HHR]

Jimmy: