like what forms?
The Martial Arts and Philosophy
- Thread starter Julius Skrrvin
- Start date
Hannibal Fox
Eetwidomayloh
I botched that initial post due to losing my train of thought but @Broletariat got what I was trying to say, but I wondered if there was way we could compare MA's from those regions to one another in terms of energy cultivation and find similarities or similar concepts.
I was kinda thinking out loud and I understand that it was kind of wishy washy.
Edit: @Blackking you practice MA's too?
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Julius Skrrvin
I be winkin' through the scope
The only indian art I know about is Kalari, but that is practiced in a very traditional way. They do the weapons first and then move to empty hand. There is traditional medicine and chakra shyt associated with it, overall I wouldn't say I know much about it tho.
Julius Skrrvin
I be winkin' through the scope
Hannibal Fox
Eetwidomayloh
Indeed, if you look at the 5 elements of xingyiquan, I think you can still see how an attempt was being made to translate the physical form of using a weapon to the empty hand - ranging from a chopping blow of a two-handed sabre or halberd (pi quan), the piercing thrust of a straight sword (zuan quan), the heavy thrust of a spear (beng quan), the use of a cannon (pao quan) and the overhand curving thrust of any number of sharp weapons (heng quan).
I personally think that pao quan gives us an approximate date for the formation of xingyiquan: some time soon after the invention of gun powder.
Why should this have spurred the development of unarmed fighting methods? Precisely because hand-to-hand battlefield combat with weapons like swords became less relevant. This left the field open for hand-to-hand fighting arts to move into the civilian realm for defence and into culture as a form of dance/art/philosophical expression.
I imagine that initially weapons such as the straight-sided, non-battlefield sword known as the jianwere modified for civilian defence use as well as turned into dance-like art forms, but that unarmed forms followed soon after.
But what is significant is that, in each case, the unarmed "boxing" traditions of China were based on striking - cf. grappling which already comprised an existing system of unarmed fighting (whether on the battlefield or in sport).
That is arguably why there are no "grappling solo forms"; they didn't form part of this tradition of "unarmed fighting descended from armed fighting". This translation of "arms" (in the form of weapons) to "arms" (in the form of "human arms") also accounts for why xingyiquan has virtually no kicks; aside from a low kick on the turn in beng quan, one has to go to the 12 animal forms to see any kicks at all, and even these are scarce.
Another salient fact is that the basic "launch platform" - the stance - remains more or less the same: the principle battlefield spear or other weapon stance tends to be slightly backward weighted, just like the xingyiquan "zhan bu" - the battle step/stance.
I personally think that pao quan gives us an approximate date for the formation of xingyiquan: some time soon after the invention of gun powder.
Why should this have spurred the development of unarmed fighting methods? Precisely because hand-to-hand battlefield combat with weapons like swords became less relevant. This left the field open for hand-to-hand fighting arts to move into the civilian realm for defence and into culture as a form of dance/art/philosophical expression.
I imagine that initially weapons such as the straight-sided, non-battlefield sword known as the jianwere modified for civilian defence use as well as turned into dance-like art forms, but that unarmed forms followed soon after.
But what is significant is that, in each case, the unarmed "boxing" traditions of China were based on striking - cf. grappling which already comprised an existing system of unarmed fighting (whether on the battlefield or in sport).
That is arguably why there are no "grappling solo forms"; they didn't form part of this tradition of "unarmed fighting descended from armed fighting". This translation of "arms" (in the form of weapons) to "arms" (in the form of "human arms") also accounts for why xingyiquan has virtually no kicks; aside from a low kick on the turn in beng quan, one has to go to the 12 animal forms to see any kicks at all, and even these are scarce.
Another salient fact is that the basic "launch platform" - the stance - remains more or less the same: the principle battlefield spear or other weapon stance tends to be slightly backward weighted, just like the xingyiquan "zhan bu" - the battle step/stance.
I had to jack this part as I agree with wholeheartedly especially the bolded which is something that my instructor and I used to converse on a lot.
It's interesting that the initial origin story of Xing Yi that it was (allegedly) created by General Yue Fei might lend some weight to the above statements, this needs some serious investigating.
Interestingly when I began to drill beng I would spend a lot of time thrusting a stick in the same way beng is performed to try and understand the mechanics of the strike.
I'm going to be reading this article again.
Julius Skrrvin
I be winkin' through the scope
Totally agreed on the weapons stuff. My instructor also said that you don't really get it until you've played with the da qiang (big spear) at least somewhat, really helped. The history part of that article is straight bunk though, The idea that san ti shi influenced all these different stances in the martial world in the space of 150 years is definitely bullshyt; information just didnt travel that fast, martial information doubly so.
Speaking of history; here's a great thread on Xing Yi's real history. I think you'll find the connection between Shaolin precursors and the style very interesting. It can get pretty confusing when you're differentiating between Hebei XY, Shanxi XY, XYLHQ, and Dai Xinyi.
http://rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=20264
This dude Sal Canzonieri is an incredible martial arts researcher. Waiting for him to drop that book. I'm not much of a historian but i enjoy efforts to chop the bs down.
Hannibal Fox
Eetwidomayloh
Yeah at the bolded it's like trying to connect Tan Sou to a knife hand middle block of TKD and
@ rumsoakedfist haven't been there in forever.What? that's all i do other than work.
I used to box as a kid. base in kung fu now.. wing chun. but lately all ground shyt like bjj.. for some reason I'm thinking of focusing on muy thai because I like their moves the best-- it's more 'me' --- elbows and knees and the roughness.. all that.
What forms are u into.
Hannibal Fox
Eetwidomayloh
Xingyiquan mainly these days will commit to it more when I can find a decent instructor to continue training I'm not fond of flowery movements that leave you exposed.
Mr. Somebody
Friend Of A Friend
No one signed up for Brazillian Jiujitsu yet? 
Julius Skrrvin
I be winkin' through the scope
Submission wrestling good enough for you? Ive been doing a lot of that this year.No one signed up for Brazillian Jiujitsu yet?
Julius Skrrvin
I be winkin' through the scope
Thai is great. The thing that is really dope about it is that it teaches you to throw attacks from almost any position with any striking surface of your body. I also like the curved attacks in it; hooks elbows round kicks. Itll supplement the linear strikes of your Chun well.
Yep, thats what I liked about it as well. All about generating that relaxed power and apply ing it efficiently. Btw I found a guy who'll teach me Bajiquan here in town very hyped thabout that.
Hannibal Fox
Eetwidomayloh
Lucky b*stard.
Next to no chance of finding a Bajiquan instructor where I'm at as travelling would take hours, out of curiosity what made you consider Baji?
Julius Skrrvin
I be winkin' through the scope
My uncle taught me a little bit of it when I was younger and it always felt like the perfect martial art for me. I'm 5'9" 185-190, stocky but pretty explosive. When i'm sparring/fighting i like to close the distance or bring someone closer to me using the stickier tactics from the internals and then fajing right into their center of mass with a fist/elbow/shoulder/head/crossing type takedown. Think applications of Xingyi horse/tuo/tiger/tai/pao/pi. That's pretty much the sole goal of Baji in application. Close distance, stick and then blast them with full body power.
interesting... my chun peps feel that's all they need in life is chun.... i don't think that's true. I was waiting on my boy to hook up w me to show me some m thai shyt.... but i guess our sch. don't align.. he went to thailand for a year randomly to study it.
I think there are some good schools round here..