Tariq & Akademiks Arguing Over Origins of Hip Hop

[IllmaticDelta]

It's not complicated. Ask them to show the early Hip Hop flyers from the 70s and even early 80s, with all these "Jamaican-Americans". If these exists that is.

Their claim is based in the story that Herc is the Jamaican who pioneered breakbeats and that Coke La Rock brought toasting from Jamaica and pioneered rapping

This jamaican professor/writer

wrote this article:

On a visit to Senegal in 2018, I got caught in a surprisingly hostile conversation about the origins of hip-hop. I’d been invited to speak at a colloquium on ‘Reclaiming Black Civilizations: Finishing the Decolonization Process.’ It was one of the events celebrating the inauguration of the Museum of Black Civilizations in Dakar. I focussed on Jamaican popular music as an instrument of decolonisation.

In the Q &A, I made what I thought was a completely uncontroversial statement: the roots of hip hop are in Jamaica. The next day, on a tour of the city, an African-American professor demanded to know why I was taking hip-hop away from its rightful creators. As far as she knew, hip hop belonged to African-American youth and I was robbing them of their culture.

I was alarmed by the professor’s passion. She had never heard of Clive ‘DJ Kool Herc’ Campbell and his foundational role in the development of hip hop. He inventively used two turntables to extend the instrumental break in hit songs and dee-jayed over the beats. DJ Kool Herc created a ‘dubplate’ for hip hop.

Jamaican sound system culture in New York revolutionised African-American pop music. But I could not persuade the professor that the story of hip hop was much more complicated than she imagined. She was adamant in ignorance. A few days later, I sent a conciliatory email:

“I’m so sorry I caused so much grief with my casual statement at the symposium about the Jamaican origins of hip hop. I assumed that the story was widely known. Anyhow, I’m confident that what we share across the African Diaspora is far more than what divides us. So I hope you will see that acknowledging the Jamaican roots of hip hop does not diminish the African-American claim on the music. In fact, DJ Kool Herc did not commercialise hip hop. It was African-Americans, many with Caribbean parents, who took Herc’s invention to another level and globalised the music”.

MEGAWATTAGE SOUND SYSTEM​

The professor did acknowledge receipt of my email, but she made no mention of the article about Herc that I’d sent. I don’t suppose she read it. Her mind seemed firmly closed. I wondered if there were many more African-Americans, and even Jamaicans, who did not know about our contribution to the development of hip hop. The story needed to be told loud and clear. Pon a megawattage sound system!

It struck me that The University of the West Indies, Mona, should take the lead in hosting an international conference on hip hop, with Clive ‘DJ Kool Herc’ Campbell as guest of honour. As soon as I came back from Senegal, I raised the matter with vice-chancellor Sir Hilary Beckles and Dr Sonjah Stanley Niaah, director of the Institute of Caribbean Studies. They agreed that it was an excellent idea.

Carolyn Cooper | Reclaiming the Jamaican roots of hip hop

On a visit to Senegal in 2018, I got caught in a surprisingly hostile conversation about the origins of hip-hop. I’d been invited to speak at a colloquium on ‘Reclaiming Black Civilizations: Finishing the Decolonization Process.’ It was one of...

jamaica-gleaner.com

 

[Ish Gibor]

Their claim is based in the story that Herc is the Jamaican who pioneered breakbeats and that Coke La Rock brought toasting from Jamaica and pioneered rapping

This jamaican professor/writer

wrote this article:

Carolyn Cooper | Reclaiming the Jamaican roots of hip hop

On a visit to Senegal in 2018, I got caught in a surprisingly hostile conversation about the origins of hip-hop. I’d been invited to speak at a colloquium on ‘Reclaiming Black Civilizations: Finishing the Decolonization Process.’ It was one of...

jamaica-gleaner.com

As you know, I am from overseas and grew up with deployed military FBA/ ADOS servants over here in the Netherlands. We've never heard of this story, until later on with Herc. Herc has been overhyped, that's for sure.

I had a discussion back then with Baby Bam and Mike G (Jungle Brothers), Latifah was there as well that day, but she didn't engage in that conversation we did talk about some metaphysical things (which will be remained unmentioned here). I told Baby Bam the importance of the history of Hip Hop, Black Spades 5% etc. Baby Bam was surprised I knew all that etc., but somehow Mike G was in disagreement and even got a bit upset with me.

We associated rap with the Black Poets etc., which was from the 60s. The Black Poets did Spoken Word and Spoken Word evolved from the Griots in the 13 colonies, which later became the USA. So no, rap did not come from toasting. There was a time I where was tricked into this for a moment, but it's not true. The MC (Master Of The Ceremony) thing is confusing with many so claims. I have never really researched this.

Btw, I often have heard about the sound system thing, which allegedly came from Jamaica, but I don't know. I do know Jamaicans love to bump those sound systems. They also had it when I went to South East London, Brixton. Those base lines were cray cray. But Hip Hip culture as a whole is not Jamaican. The first Jamaican influence was with KRS and Just Ice. Before that it was only funk and disco. After them we started to hear some toasting and patio, and as you know this became more present in the early 90' to the mid 90s with Mad Lion etc., with also FBA ADOS started to incorporate in into there songs.

Slick Rick has Jamaican heritage, but he never did anything close to toasting on his first record with Dog E Fresh in 1985, nor in did he lives from what I know.

Even Jamaica rappers in the UK didn't use toasting, but purely American rap style, though it sounded corny in most cases (but that's beside the point), but for a few exceptions. Slick Rick, Monie Love, Cookie Crew - Born This Way in 1989 (I suspect hey were Jamaican), with samples by Johnny Pate - Shaft in Africa and Let's Dance by Pleasure (1976), in 1991 Cookie Crew* released Secrets (Of Success). This was heavy New Jack Swing influenced (and still hope btw). Samples by A Little Bit of Love by Brenda Russell (1979), Bouncy Lady by Pleasure (1975), I'm Gonna Love You Just a Little More Baby by Barry White (1973).

"Much later" in 1990 Michie Mee came out with Jamaican Funk. That record was processed by King Of Chill. And previously in 1985 he made a record with The Alliance Of MC's* – The Beast Within. This record had no Jamaican influence, reggae or toasting in it. It was pure funky disco. In 1988 Michie Mee released Victory Is Calling feat MC Lyte, with samples from The Meters Chicken Strut and James Brown. She did incorporate some toasting in the intro and outdo. In 1997 Michie Mee and L. A. Luv.* resealed Elements Of Style, however this song was produced by BPD (Scott LaRock*, KRS). She did some toasting on that song, but the beats are straight up funk with samples from "Ashley's Roachclip" by The Soul Searchers.

Overlord X neither had toasting on his albums, it was pure American rap style and soul, funk disco jazzy samples. Not sure if he was Jamaican btw.

In 1989 MC Rebel was the first British rapper (as afar as I know) to incorporate some reggae and toasting on his 1989 album Rebel MC – Rebel Music". But it is was a mixture of Hip House, R&B with samples from funk music, disco and soul, as well as some reggae and sk'ouse. Hip House was a style originated in Chicago in the late '80s. So that's where his influence came from. He mixed it up with his heritage, which was an "original concept" (no pun intended).

​

Hip Hop Futures: A Lecture and Discussion POSTED ON FEBRUARY 12, 2009 BY CORNELL UNIVERSITY LIBRARY, CORNELL UNIVERSITY LIBRARY

Hip Hop Futures: A Lecture and Discussion - Cornell Video

Author Tricia Rose addresses the current and future state of hip hop culture

www.cornell.edu

This is the Cookie Crew album, still dope.

 

[IllmaticDelta]

As you know, I am from overseas and grew up with deployed military FBA/ ADOS servants over here in the Netherlands. We've never heard of this story, until later on with Herc. Herc has been overhyped, that's for sure.

I had a discussion back then with Baby Bam and Mike G (Jungle Brothers), Latifah was there as well that day, but she didn't engage in that conversation we did talk about some metaphysical things (which will be remained unmentioned here). I told Baby Bam the importance of the history of Hip Hop, Black Spades 5% etc. Baby Bam was surprised I knew all that etc., but somehow Mike G was in disagreement and even got a bit upset with me.

We associated rap with the Black Poets etc., which was from the 60s. The Black Poets did Spoken Word and Spoken Word evolved from the Griots in the 13 colonies, which later became the USA. So no, rap did not come from toasting. There was a time I where was tricked into this for a moment, but it's not true. The MC (Master Of The Ceremony) thing is confusing with many so claims. I have never really researched this.

Rapping in the USA did come from Toasting but not via what Jamaicans were doing (which came from Afram jive talk), it came from the "Toast" styles that were already in Afram culture which is like that rhyming slick talking-narrative story telling style

this also relates to that "pimp talk" style




that you get on the "Hustlers Convention"

 

[Jone2three45]

Someone post the video of Lil’ Baby rapping here in the 1940’s.

 

[Ish Gibor]

Rapping in the USA did come from Toasting but not via what Jamaicans were doing (which came from Afram jive talk), it came from the "Toast" style that were already in Afram culture which is like that rhyming slick talking-narrative story telling style

this also relates to that "pimp talk" style




that you get on the "Hustlers Convention"

I am trying to understand where Jamaicans get these idea from? Perhaps the immigration from Jamaicans to the USA can shed more light on this?

Caribbean Immigrants in the United States

Caribbean immigrants represent 10 percent of the 44.5 million immigrants in the United States, with the vast majority coming from just five countries: Cuba, the Dominican Republic, Jamaica, Haiti, and Trinidad and Tobago. Depending on their origin country and period of arrival, immigrants from...

www.migrationpolicy.org

"Although about 10,000 Jamaicans migrated to the United States legally from 1960 to 1965, the number skyrocketed in succeeding years—62,700 (1966-1970), 61,500 (1971-1975), 80,600 (1976-1980) and 81,700 (1981-1984)—to an aggregate of about 300,000 documented immigrants in just under a quarter of a century."

Jamaican Americans - History, Modern era, The first jamaicans in america

Jamaican Americans - History, Modern era, The first jamaicans in america Ha-La

www.everyculture.com

For years there used to be this mysticism surrounding the origins of Hip Hip, rap and MCing, but within recent years we've been able to reconstruct what happened, because more historical information is available.




Kool Keith:

Here's a little story that must be told
Ah yes, yes y'all and you don't stop
Here's a little story that must be told
You're listenin' to the sounds, of the best MC, in the world
Kool Keith, go off and go off

I got a flier in my hand, Bambaataa with Cold Crush
The place is packed, with Johnny Wa and Rayon
Lovely ladies smellin' sweet, with a lot of Avon
Jazzy Jay by my side, Charlie Chase behind me

Flash and Theodore, super cuts that blind me
Catch a Groove is the rhythm, spinnin' back and forth
From the East and the Valley, swingin' back up North
Towards the South Bronx, Euceda Park and Webster

The speakers are pumpin', power bass is thumpin'
With the Ultra mega amp, keepin' pep up, jumpin'
From side to side, the double meters will peak
They had some good MC's, a lot of them, they was weak

They no style with no metaphor, no voice to speak
Melle Mel had the best rhymes, rankin' with Caz
Kool Moe tried to get down but I made him sit down
With that metaphor quickness, you bite and you bit this

Stop and go turn, see the flame and go burn
To ashes to ashes, dust to dust
Seven years later toy you still crusty crust
Your old rhymes are rust, very dirty and dusty

And under your arms you're kickin' power and musty
Get out of my way, and let the rhythm path roll
Let me run up the charts, freak a rhyme turn gold
While you're listenin', I throw a buzz in your ear
Bust the facts

Yes, yes y'all
Innovative
Let's rock, get bigger
Yes, yes y'all
Innovative
Let's rock, get bigger

Yes, yes y'all
Innovative
Let's rock, get bigger

Now swing your partner around, dosey-dosey
Like musical chairs and ring around the Rosie
The party you pace see, Kool Herc with J.C.
The Herculoids battle, The Disco Twins

Funky rhymes with break beats, the DJ spins
For the L Brothers, steppin' right in the scene
Mean Gene was maxin', Rockin' Rob went to work
While the tables would turn, the old needles used to jerk

With the belt drive, Technics and B-1's
With the orange light shinin', the red on D-1's
Direct drive and Nova, I'm chillin' with G.L.O.B.E.
Mr. Biggs and Pow-Wow, Monk and Superman

Pullin' out that Olde E, that funky funky 40 ounce
Ikey C from Cosmic, the bass bottom bounce
Red Alert in the booth, the T-Connection to mix
Silly rabbit you know my style has Trix

To go on, to the next line, to the break of dawn
While I move up step, to the early early morn
With a hip-hop drink and some rhyme popcorn
Never smokin' or sniffin' or ever jokin' or riffin'

Because it's time to plex more, and rhyme fantastic
Donald Rock and Whipper Whip, neither rapper was plastic
Back in the days, you had to be so sarcastic
To stretch out a rhyme and make it double elastic

You learn new jack, step back and be wack
You know what time it is boy and every mic I smoke
Bust the facts

Yes, yes y'all
Innovative
Let's rock, get bigger
Yes, yes y'all
Innovative
Let's rock, get bigger

Yes, yes y'all
Innovative
Let's rock, get bigger
Yes, yes y'all
Innovative
Let's rock, get bigger

Later on at the Boys Club, while Tom excel
I got a name for your brain that surely rings a bell
Patti Duke had the nice hands, swift with Billy Boy
Playin' James Brown records, you stupid you silly boy

Bongo Rockin', hard where the rhythm go
You fake and pass, Busy Bee give and go
To the AJ Scratch, a funky beat that matched
With a two-second break, that was hard to catch

DST was mixin', slicin' with his elbows
Freakin' the wheels, loopin' rhymes, here we go
To the master faster, speed up and go faster
Turn my JVC to mega power and blast the

Mario tape, yes The Disco King
With the b-side The Funky Drums, no new jack swing
Happy rappers with polka dots, were bound to get stuck
You had the Zulus the Nine crew, you're pushin' your luck

The Casanovas was maxin' all scheamin' to duck
You had The Black Spades, plus The Savage Skulls
Gang bangin' was over, neither crew is exist
They got a job and a wife, a pretty woman to kiss

So on the rhymes kept rollin', straight up into disco
Eddie Chiba was sweet G and back up to Cisko
And freakier Islam, with the Great Love Squids
Spinnin' high-top beats, can you check it, you dig
Kool Keith out smokin', my lyrics are hot
Bust the facts

Innovative
Let's rock, get bigger
Yes, yes y'all
Innovative
Let's rock, get bigger

Yes, yes y'all
Innovative
Let's rock, get bigger
Yes, yes y'all
Innovative
Let's rock, get bigger

 

[Ish Gibor]

No matter how much it is said "I am your brother....I love you...."
what is returned is

"you hate us.....you wanna be us.....you worst than maga racists they my brothers"
it is very very strange....

thankfully it is only a minority of folks with that mindset...

I went digging and I found the old article I was talking about yesterday,

Original source By Simon Johnson, 28 December 2008 • 3:03pm:

Rap music originated in medieval Scottish pubs, claims American professor

Rap music originated in the medieval taverns of Scotland rather than the mean streets of the Bronx and Brooklyn, an American academic has claimed.

www.telegraph.co.uk

"Rap music originated in medieval Scottish pubs, claims American professor

Rap music originated in the medieval taverns of Scotland rather than the mean streets of the Bronx and Brooklyn, an American academic has claimed.

Professor Ferenc Szasz argued that so-called rap battles, where two or more performers trade elaborate insults, derive from the ancient Caledonian art of "flyting".

According to the theory, Scottish slave owners took the tradition with them to the United States, where it was adopted and developed by slaves, emerging many years later as rap.

Professor Szasz is convinced there is a clear link between this tradition for settling scores in Scotland and rap battles, which were famously portrayed in Eminem's 2002 movie 8 Mile.

He said: "The Scots have a lengthy tradition of flyting - intense verbal jousting, often laced with vulgarity, that is similar to the dozens that one finds among contemporary inner-city African-American youth.

"Both cultures accord high marks to satire. The skilled use of satire takes this verbal jousting to its ultimate level - one step short of a fist fight."

The academic, who specialises in American and Scottish culture at the University of New Mexico, made the link in a new study examining the historical context of Robert Burn's work.

The most famous surviving example of flyting comes from a 16th-century piece in which two rival poets hurl increasingly obscene rhyming insults at one another before the Court of King James IV.

Titled the Flyting Of Dunbar And Kennedy, it has been described by academics as "just over 500 lines of filth".

Professor Szasz cites an American civil war poem, printed in the New York Vanity Fair magazine on November 9, 1861, as the first recorded example of the battles being used in the United States.

Professor Willie Ruff, of Yale University, agreed that Scottish slave owners had a profound impact on the development of African American music traditions.

Comparing flyting and rap battles, he said: "Two people engage in ritual verbal duelling and the winner has the last word in the argument, with the loser falling conspicuously silent."

 

[IllmaticDelta]

I am trying to understand where Jamaicans get these idea from? Perhaps the immigration from Jamaicans to the USA can shed more light on this?

Again, it came from the narrative that got pushed when the history for got documented/put to paper in the 1980s. Some people were trying to keep the glory for themselves, so they purposely didn't mention other figures. It was a confluence of people like Baam and Flash having to acknowledge Herc (he came before them) and Herc and his followers being in the West Bronx where the gangs didn't dominate which obscured movements that predate Herc in the South East Bronx via Mario/Black Spades in the eyes of younger observers


description of the South/East Bronx back then

.
..
vs a description of the West Bronx

Sha Rock spoke on this aspect:

No, IMO it has more to do with his location (too dangerous to go into the south bronx or east bronx) and where people who weren't old enough to get into clubs, may have witnessed different figures outside in PARKS.


at 43:15 (talking about Bronx River and Baambatta.Zulu Nation), she hits on something I spoke on before about how you couldn't/wouldn't go to certain parts of the Bronx to see and experience early HipHop unless you had a "pass".....this is part of the reason Herc became so visible in the West Bronx because apparently, the gangs didn't have a stronghold there like did where Disco King Mario and Baam came from which was dominated by the Black Spades

@K.O.N.Y

to add this point:

.
.
take note of Herc's area vs where all the gangs were located

 

[Ish Gibor]

Nerd not as in smart

Nerd as in ostracized and not paid attention to

But you knew that and that's why you got up in your feelings

fukk off

I finished listen to the interview. I guess what you meant to say is that Ak is not conscious and socially aware of what's going on.

Tariq is right about a lot, but he keeps misconstruing the Caribbean and what this CARICOM actually is.

I feel a lot of people don’t know and understand what CARICOM is and means, so I will try to explain it here.

CARICOM is an economic platform for business, trade and commerce. And like the European Union (EU) is an economic union.

Before CARICOM there was CARIFTA found in 1967. In 4 juli 1973 the CARIFTA all signed new trade agreements, which turned CARIFTA into CARICOM. It was found because that time more economic blocks started to form all around the world. And in order to compete some Latin American and Caribbean countries formed an economic block as well. And this probably explains the N'COBRA-commission. Somehow somewhere in this history both organizations got entangled.

In the early 2000s some of the CARICOM countries organized to get Reparations paid out as a collective to all people of African descent in the Caribbean and USA, but it was too complicated so it was broken up into sections as we know them now, where each country starting to demand reparations independently from the former colonizer. So not all Caribbean countries are included in the same bill, since different countries colonized different Latin American and Caribbean (nations and states).

I do think it’s possible for Black Americans to join the union of CARICOM. Yes, but Black Americans (Freedmen, ADOS/ FBA) need to have a delegation and committee (representatives) if they want to join in CARICOM. So I think it's possible, but all we have seen was online social media rants and never a real delegation (committee) to economically represent Freedmen (ADOS/FBA).

Personally I have never heard any African and Afro-Caribbean or Afro-Latino say that they are against reparations for Black Americans (Freedmen, ADOS/FBA). If they exits they are just very weird, because it logically will indirectly benefit them also.

 

[Ish Gibor]

Again, it came from the narrative that got pushed when the history for got documented/put to paper in the 1980s. Some people were trying to keep the glory to themselves, so they purposely didn't mention other figures. It was a confluence of people like Baam and Flash having to acknowledge Herc (he came before them) and Herc and his followers being in the West Bronx where the gangs didn't dominate which obscured movements that predate Herc in the South East Bronx via Mario/Black Spades in the eyes of younger observers


description of the South/East Bronx back then

.
..
vs a description of the West Bronx

Sha Rock spoke on this aspect:






@K.O.N.Y

to add this point:

.
.
take note of Herc's area vs where all the gangs were located

I did learn here, as I was very young at that time when all this took place, and living in a foreign place. The maps were certainly helpful.

Do you have information on Mario? What his record collection was, what gigs he was at etc...? I feel we know by far to little about him,

Sha Rock at Lord Jamar Yanadameen.

 

[IllmaticDelta]

I did learn here, as I was very young at that time when all this took place, and living in a foreign place. The maps were certainly helpful.

Do you have information on Mario? What his record collection was, what gigs he was at etc...? I feel we know by far to little about him,

Sha Rock at Lord Jamar Yanadameen.

He had the same records that all the djs had back then and he played in soundview section

Spoiler

and JHS 123

Spoiler

the place Just-Ice was rapping about on

Spoiler

 

[truth2you]

Rapping in the USA did come from Toasting but not via what Jamaicans were doing (which came from Afram jive talk), it came from the "Toast" style that were already in Afram culture which is like that rhyming slick talking-narrative story telling style

this also relates to that "pimp talk" style




that you get on the "Hustlers Convention"

YOUR GREATNESS NEVER STOPS!

 

[Positive Posting]

Rapping before color TV. Pay homage and stop trying to hijack our culture

nikka on the far left look just like taxstone, thats crazy.

 

[The Devil's Advocate]

Ak LIVES AND BREATHES HIP HOP
that is what he is into
that is what he studies
all day every day

if you ask any Caribbean person they will say Akademiks is blk american
much as I would suspect everybody who knew Kook Herc when he was throwing parties
blk american culture is their culture
what they live every single day

these guys like Tariq are looking for a fight
and nobody is fighting with them
herc is blk american
akademiks is blk american

what else is there to discuss

This is dumb because AK during the interview says "DON'T TAKE IT FROM USSSSSSSSSSSSS JAMAICANS"

He didn't say shyt about being a black american... He chose his side in plain english

 

[Ish Gibor]

He had the same records that all the djs had back then and he played in soundview section





and JHS 123

the place Just-Ice was rapping about on

I remember these videos by Davey, I saw them years ago when he just uploaded them.

Back it the 80s there was this rumor going around how the Hip Hop Gestapo wanted to do something to Justice for saying in Going Way Back: ”It's true, I'm from the old school, I'm the professor and they are my pupils”. But they basically had a settlement and “forgave” him.





Just Ice first 2 albums are still gold, I mean these two in particular!

Brother D's came out with Dib-Be-Dib-Be-Dize (1980) which was the first crossover reggae rap song. Six years later KRS and Just started with the reggae influences in Hip Hop. Still with solid Hip Hop beats.

 

[DaHNIC82]

Tariq is straight manhandling AK.... The Coli isn't gonna like this one bit