Reconciling Homophobia and Homoeroticism in Hip-hop

The Real

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This might be the first time we've debated something like this. I'll try to defend my interpretation of what the author is saying.

There's a lot wrong with that article. Almost every point or example made was either a questionable one, or outright false.

---It starts off saying that after DeLa, Tribe, etc there has been one accepted narrow vision of the black rapper, and thats a hyper masculine one. What???? Drake, Tyga, Weezy are hyper masculine now?

I actually agree with you to an extent here. In some ways the article is a little late. It should restrict itself to gangsta rap. Still, though- misogyny and homoeroticism are still present to different extents in the work of Drake and Kanye, Weezy, too. I have never really bothered listening to Tyga so I can't comment there.

--- The author tries to make some point about how appealing to women is somehow exclusively hip hop, and that rock artists dont perform or pose with their shirts off? WTF????? Thats aggressively false. Male rockers have been appealing to women for decades.

I don't think it's a matter of appealing to women as much as it is a particular kind of hyper-masculine display, similar to what you see in the WWE, for example. Gangsta rap is primarily marketed to men, and yet there is more shirtless, oiled-up man posing on gangsta rap album covers than in popular rock music, which is relatively "soft" and has a more equal man-woman fanbase (Radiohead, Arctic Monkeys, Mumford and Sons, whatever.)

---- I cant believe Im addressing this song in such a way, but 'Aint no fun' doesnt necessarily imply group sex. I guess it could be inferred, but I always took it to mean that you want the female to be a bopper, and go from nikka to nikka individually. Like if she comes around if a nikka from the crew wants her, then she needs to bust it wide open and shes nobody's girl in particular.

I don't think any kind of explicit group sex was the point here, but rather that there is a homoerotic subtext to the song insofar as the male sexual enjoyment of the female discussed in the song is specifically mediated through other men. There's "no fun" for any one dude if "everyone" (meaning all the dudes) don't get some from the woman. It's the same principle you see in other examples of men who talk about enjoying "double-teaming" women, where each man's enjoyment of the experience is compounded by the enjoyment of the other man. Frat boys or thugs talking about high-fiving each other while fukking the same girl. That is pretty homoerotic no matter how you approach it.

---The biggie sht was during the era of gangster rap, where the industry was trying to market abject nihilism, and not necessarily gender confusion, although that was an outcome of that --- women gangsters.

I don't think they're saying that gender confusion is being marketed. Rather, they're making an interesting point about a certain ideal of womanhood promoted by some gangsta rappers, which is that it is actually very similar to the ideal man. Part of it could be what was marketed at the time, for sure, but either way, that result being embraced in itself is very telling. While not inherently gay, which the article says, too, I think it certainly contributes to the kind of confusion the article describes.

--- P diddy saying "we were more than lovers, we were like brothers" is homoerotic? What was he supposed to say to indicate how close they were....we were like sisters?

I don't know. I don't really see how this isn't a wildly homoerotic line, insofar as it praises a woman lover by comparing her to a man. But even if it isn't, the subtext has the same structure as the general tendency described in the article- a male brother is "more than" a woman lover- this is just a dressed up version of "homies over hoes."
 

Brown_Pride

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mmmmmmm no.
One of the things not taken into account in this "culture" article is POWER.

Weakness is seen as weak, being a woman doesn't make you weak, being woman like makes you weak. That's why all those songs about women who resemble men have nothing to do with sex and more to do with weakness. For instance...

Moonlight strolls with the hoes, oh no, that’s not my steelo
I wanna bytch that like to play celo, and craps
Packin gats, in a Coach bag steamin dime bags
A real bytch is all I want, all I ever had (yeah, c’mon)
With a glock just as strong as me
Totin guns just as long as me, that bytch belongs with me
The key line to this verse is the first one, where the idea of power is created.
No strolls with hoes...
he's not talking about women, he's talking about weak hoes (or weak women.)

Hip hop isn't misogynistic because of women, it's that way because of power, and women traditionally are seen as not having any.
 

The Real

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mmmmmmm no.
One of the things not taken into account in this "culture" article is POWER.

Weakness is seen as weak, being a woman doesn't make you weak, being woman like makes you weak. That's why all those songs about women who resemble men have nothing to do with sex and more to do with weakness. For instance...

I don't the article disagrees with you. But the point is there is a distinction between bad women, hoes, and good women, and the distinction is that good women are as manly as possible. As you say, "being woman-like makes you weak."
 

Brown_Pride

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Perhaps...I read it as more of a power dominance sort of relationship. Like I can get a chick to fukk my boys at the drop of a hat, while other cats have to wine and dine a chick just to even sniff her draws.
exactly!!! (i wrote my post before reading past page 1)

Misogyny is a by product of power in hip hop, because hip hop is a by product of a culture based on power (gangs, prison and money...at least in it's current form)

If you look at prison culture rape is less about sex and more about dominance and power.

Power fools, it's all about power
 

Brown_Pride

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I don't the article disagrees with you. But the point is there is a distinction between bad women, hoes, and good women, and the distinction is that good women are as manly as possible. As you say, "being woman-like makes you weak."
That has nothing to do with homosexuality though.
Personally I like strong minded women, not because they resemble men but because I desired a partner of with an equal tenacity to want to whoop life's ass. I didn't want a child to take care of, in that sense being "woman like" is weakness.

Understand that when I say woman like i mean it in the traditional sense of begin sub servant and obedient, to me that's NOT what a woman should be like.

Admiration of strength (power) is not homosexuality is all i'm saying, this article doesn't really understand that and or was written by someone with an agenda...

You know who explains this pretty well or at least the idea of words representing things, particularly of a gay nature Louis CK. Here watch.

 

The Real

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That has nothing to do with homosexuality though.
Personally I like strong minded women, not because they resemble men but because I desired a partner of with an equal tenacity to want to whoop life's ass. I didn't want a child to take care of, in that sense being "woman like" is weakness.

Understand that when I say woman like i mean it in the traditional sense of begin sub servant and obedient, to me that's NOT what a woman should be like.

Admiration of strength (power) is not homosexuality is all i'm saying, this article doesn't really understand that and or was written by someone with an agenda...

I agree, it has nothing inherent to do with homosexuality, but it's one contributor to thug culture and gangsta rap's confusion on the subject, which is also the article's point.

What you're talking about, strong-mindedness in women, is not what Biggie was talking about, or Puff, or any of those other dudes. They had a very specific conception of masculinity, involving things like violence. That's why I don't buy the "strength" argument. What is considered strong is partially culturally specific, and part of that culture includes that definition being shaded by gender. There's no way to separate those into general arguments about power or strength without abstracting to the point where you're not talking about this particular, real-life context.
 

Brown_Pride

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I agree, it has nothing inherent to do with homosexuality, but it's one contributor to thug culture and gangsta rap's confusion on the subject, which is also the article's point.

What you're talking about, strong-mindedness in women, is not what Biggie was talking about, or Puff, or any of those other dudes. They had a very specific conception of masculinity, involving things like violence. That's why I don't buy the "strength" argument. What is considered strong is partially culturally specific, and part of that culture includes that definition being shaded by gender. There's no way to separate those into general arguments about power or strength without abstracting to the point where you're not talking about this particular, real-life context.
And that's why you can't take the face value wording of some of those verses but have to look at the actual culture, not this BS idea of what the culture is (namely covertly gay).

By the standards of this argument any man who ever watched a sports player and said, man I wish I could jump/run/throw like that is gay and by extension seeing a woman jump/run/throw and saying I wish I could do that makes you secretly wanting to be gay? GTFOH the OP article is a large jump and stretch and lacks a base understanding in the motives behind the culture.

One of the many views of strength in hip hop is forcing someone to be weaker, ergo the "i'll make you my biotch" mentality. Hell even rape is usually about power and less about sex, even when it's man on woman.
 

The Real

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And that's why you can't take the face value wording of some of those verses but have to look at the actual culture, not this BS idea of what the culture is (namely covertly gay).

By the standards of this argument any man who ever watched a sports player and said, man I wish I could jump/run/throw like that is gay and by extension seeing a woman jump/run/throw and saying I wish I could do that makes you secretly wanting to be gay? GTFOH the OP article is a large jump and stretch and lacks a base understanding in the motives behind the culture.

One of the many views of strength in hip hop is forcing someone to be weaker, ergo the "i'll make you my biotch" mentality. Hell even rape is usually about power and less about sex, even when it's man on woman.

Isn't not looking at the face value exactly what the article is doing, though?

I don't agree with the second paragraph. I think you're caricaturing the article's argument by making it seem like it's saying all hip-hop culture is inherently gay, as is all masculinity, which is not the case. It never makes a claim that exaggerated. It's talking about specific cultural trends, originating in things like prison culture, that connect the two. Similar trends can be found elsewhere, like in frat boy culture. It's not a statement about gender in general.

As for your last point, even your example, "I'll make you my bytch," exemplifies the issue- strength is connected to gender as a cultural matter, and can't be abstracted from it.
 

88m3

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Isn't not looking at the face value exactly what the article is doing, though?

I don't agree with the second paragraph. I think you're caricaturing the article's argument by making it seem like it's saying all hip-hop culture is inherently gay, as is all masculinity, which is not the case. It never makes a claim that exaggerated. It's talking about specific cultural trends, originating in things like prison culture, that connect the two. Similar trends can be found elsewhere, like in frat boy culture. It's not a statement about gender in general.

As for your last point, even your example, "I'll make you my bytch," exemplifies the issue- strength is connected to gender as a cultural matter, and can't be abstracted from it.

In your opinion if you listen to hip hop are you a latent homosexual?
 

Brown_Pride

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Isn't not looking at the face value exactly what the article is doing, though?
it's not looking past the obvious.

I don't agree with the second paragraph. I think you're caricaturing the article's argument by making it seem like it's saying all hip-hop culture is inherently gay, as is all masculinity, which is not the case. It never makes a claim that exaggerated. It's talking about specific cultural trends, originating in things like prison culture, that connect the two.
but it's falsely attributing things like homosexuality to cultures without understanding even those things, e.g. prison culture isn't gay, it's also about power.

Similar trends can be found elsewhere, like in frat boy culture. It's not a statement about gender in general.
Now frat boy culture is actually rooted in homosexual tradition going back to bath houses. HOWEVER; the current form i would even argue is more about degradation vs homosexuality but i digress.

As for your last point, even your example, "I'll make you my bytch," exemplifies the issue- strength is connected to gender as a cultural matter, and can't be abstracted from it.
Strength is about gender but only because culture has attributed weakness to femininity. You can abstract from it, in fact you should abstract from it because it allows you to focus on the underlying reasons for gender roles, which ironically again is rooted in power.

Ever wonder WHY women are viewed as weak? That is the heart of the matter. Again the OP article is a stretch at best
 

MVike28

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Since the decline of groups like “Tribe Called Quest”, “De La Soul” and “The Jurassic 5”


Stopped reading after this


:mjlol:
 

Insensitive

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Strength will likely be connected to gender as long
as testosterone is a different hormone from estrogen.
Society can try to change that but we all know the deal. :yeshrug:
Even transexuals under going hormone therapy come to find out
just how much hormones affect them physically and mentally
I say this in reply to whole "Sex" argument in the thread. whether that's
broadening the shoulders or widening hips, deepening/raising of voice,
lower or increased muscle mass, increased sex drive etc.

All of these things come from that hormonal cocktail we all get hit with
and likely has shaped society the way it is because of that.

On topic :
I think this "latent homosexuality" thing is a bit of a stretch
and I'm no "gay agenda/anti-gay" poster whatsoever.
 
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