Question: Why is it always held against Kobe that he played with Shaq when Magic had Kareem?

[Professor Emeritus]

2. Paul Gasol didn’t go against dwight Bynum did

Ah, glad to see you expose yourself as someone who has no clue what they are talking about.

Bynum only played 95 minutes in the entire 2009 Finals. Who do you think was guarding Dwight the rest of that time? Not to mention that Pau was sometimes doubling onto Dwight even when Bynum was in there.

Tribute to Pau Gasol, NBA Champion

In these playoffs, and especially in the Finals against the beast of Dwight Howard, Pau Gasol proved otherwise. Howard is bigger, bulkier, and stronger, but it was Gasol who man-handled Superman, rather than the other way around. As for "banging with the bigs" in the low post, Gasol didn't have any problem. Andrew Bynum was on the bench for the majority of the postseason, and Gasol willingly stepped up as the Lakers' tough, capable center. As I mentioned recently, he defended Howard better than any other center in the playoffs:

Pau Gasol defending Dwight Howard was expected to be a huge advantage for the bigger, stronger Howard, but Gasol's defense of Howard was masterful. The Lakers provided Gasol with significant help, and their defensive scheme was hugely successful in frustrating Howard, but Gasol deserves a lot of credit for his defense on Howard. According to ESPN DB, Dwight Howard was held to 4-10 shooting when guarded one-on-one by Gasol (Gasol, meanwhile, was 9-19 when guarded one-on-one by Howard). In Game 5, Gasol was the primary defender on Howard for in 38 possessions – in those 38 possessions, Howard didn't make a single field goal, and went to the line only once, where he went 1-2, for a grand total of one points on 38 possessions with Gasol as his primary defender.

On the other end of the floor, the Magic simply had no answer for Gasol. In possessions where Gasol was guarded one-on-one by Howard, Gasol shot 9-19 from the field. In the paint, he scored 56 points on 28-44 shooting from the field (63.6%), compared to Howard's 42 points on 21-42 shooting (50%). Outside the paint, Gasol was 7-14 for 16 points, while Howard did not score a single point outside of the painted area.

Overall, Gasol shot 36-60 (60%) from the field, averaging 18.6 point, 9.2 rebounds, 1.8 blocks, and only a single turnover per game in the Finals. Dwight Howard, on the other hand, shot 21-43 (48.8%) from the field, averaging 15.3 points and 15.4 rebounds per game. While he did record an incredible four blocks per game, he also committed four turnovers per game, and in the end, it was Gasol who turned in the better defensive performance at the center position.

Gasol's offensive efficiency was simply off the charts in the Finals. Despite mostly being guarded by the Defensive Player of the Year, his True Shooting Percentage was an incredible 64.7%, while Howard's was a mortal 56.2% – not bad, but low for a dominant center, and significantly below his previous playoff TS% of 65.0% (not to mention his TS% of 68.8% against Cleveland).

Meanwhile, Gasol showed himself to be a fantastic rebounder. While Howard got his rebounding numbers, the Lakers consistently dominated the boards, and a large part of that was due to Gasol's effort. In particular, the Magic were unable to get much in terms of offensive rebounds, which was yet another subtle way in which Gasol and the Lakers limited the productivity of Howard, the master of the offensive rebound and putback.

Simply put, Pau Gasol was the true beast in the low post. What he did both defensively and offensively in the Finals was not the work of a power forward playing out of position at center. That is the work of an elite NBA center, one of the best in the game.

Kareem: Howard's play with Magic 'predictable'

"So far, it hasn't been all that bad," Lakers forward Pau Gasol said about guarding Howard.

Witness The Evolution Of Pau Gasol

When asked about the match-up of guarding Dwight Howard without any assistance, Pau responded with, “it really hasn’t been that difficult.”

We have witnessed the evolution of Pau Gasol throughout the current NBA season, and these playoffs.

With the emergence of Pau Gasol, as a physical, dominating force, Laker fans can realistically expect their team to be right back in this same position next Spring.

Bynum was essential because he was a big body who could give Pau a break on that end and waste a bunch of fouls on Dwight, but he wasn't the main reason that Dwight was held to just 15ppg on 48% shooting for the series. It was because the Lakers had 3 big men who could mobile enough to guard or double onto Dwight, with Pau at the center of that. Lacking those bigs is the reason Cleveland lost to the Magic (with Dwight getting 25ppg on 65% shooting).

1. Paul Pierce was the best player on the Celtics

Bullshyt, this was already covered in a thread recently. Pierce was a scorer, Garnett was the crux of that team on both ends. There's a reason that Garnett was a top-3 MVP candidate in 2008. When healthy he scored damn near as much as Pierce did despite fewer minutes, plus he initiated a lot of the offense out of the post AND was the center of the defense.

Pierce couldn't do shyt against LeBron in the 2010 WCSF and the Celtics still won going away cause the Cavs had no answer for Rondo and Garnett.

 

[10bandz]

This is delusional fanatic talk.

yeah Ok breh. The list of pro ballers execs and legends cosinging Kobe has been posted here tons of times. But I know you Kobe haters try very hard to ignore all of that to time and time again to pretend like Kobe stans created these narratives out of thin air

 

[NoHalfWay]

Hakeem is top 10 you dont need to tell me what Hakeem did

Kobe's peak on consisted of him scoring at a pace the modern NBA has never seen until Harden did it this season. Even before his peak was he was the top scorer in the league by 2001 until Phil told him to dial it back. You're just a hater, no person who actually spent their life playing or managing basketball has Kobe outside the top10 and most have him in the top 5-7, plain and simple. No one who actually guarded Kobe will tell you his peak didn't "even come close" to Tim fukking Duncan or Hakeem. You called him a "fringe" top 10 player who's nowhere near Tim Duncan.....cool, but you're not hanging around any ballers saying that shyt.

Hakeem Olajuwon is the one Kobe really isn’t near. TD is better than Kobe as well but ok breh, we’ll give Kobe that top 5-7 all-time stimulus even though history tells us otherwise.

This is delusional fanatic talk.

That’s usually how these debates go. Emotion prioritized over facts

 

[bl2k8]

Duncan got MVP votes in 2008, 2009, 2012, 2013, 2014, and 2015. He would have been Finals MVP in 2013 if Ray misses that shot, and had a case for it in 2014. He was 1st-team All-NBA in 2013 and 2nd or 3rd team in 2008, 2009, 2010, and 2015.

Saying that he wasn't elite after 2007 is on some bullshyt.




Not in 2000, 2001, or 2005.




Well that's cause your an idiot. In 5 of those 6 meetings you had Duncan with no other stars going up against Kobe AND prime Shaq, and Duncan won twice, but Duncan wasn't the best player on the court? How does that work?

In the three times the Lakers won, you had Duncan and Shaq as the two main players canceling each other out, and Kobe was just better than the utter shyt that the Spurs had out on the perimeter. Pop chose to focus the defense around stopping Shaq and left Kobe out on a single-coverage island hoping he would shoot the Lakers out of the game. And it worked a couple times.

The fact that the Kobe/Shaq Lakers lost ANY series to Tim Duncan's Spurs is a testament to how much that pair underachieved.

Kobe was absolutely a top 5 player in 2001.

Ah, glad to see you expose yourself as someone who has no clue what they are talking about.

Bynum only played 95 minutes in the entire 2009 Finals. Who do you think was guarding Dwight the rest of that time? Not to mention that Pau was sometimes doubling onto Dwight even when Bynum was in there.

Tribute to Pau Gasol, NBA Champion



Kareem: Howard's play with Magic 'predictable'



Witness The Evolution Of Pau Gasol


Bynum was essential because he was a big body who could give Pau a break on that end and waste a bunch of fouls on Dwight, but he wasn't the main reason that Dwight was held to just 15ppg on 48% shooting for the series. It was because the Lakers had 3 big men who could mobile enough to guard or double onto Dwight, with Pau at the center of that. Lacking those bigs is the reason Cleveland lost to the Magic (with Dwight getting 25ppg on 65% shooting).




Bullshyt, this was already covered in a thread recently. Pierce was a scorer, Garnett was the crux of that team on both ends. There's a reason that Garnett was a top-3 MVP candidate in 2008. When healthy he scored damn near as much as Pierce did despite fewer minutes, plus he initiated a lot of the offense out of the post AND was the center of the defense.

Pierce couldn't do shyt against LeBron in the 2010 WCSF and the Celtics still won going away cause the Cavs had no answer for Rondo and Garnett.

The Cavs were up 2-1 in that series and gave Boston their worst playoff loss in Celtics history in game 3.

The Celtics won because LeBron completely dissapeared in games 4 and 5. He had a triple double in Game 6 though so it doesn’t count .

 

[Professor Emeritus]

The Cavs were up 2-1 in that series and gave Boston their worst playoff loss in Celtics history in game 3.

In those two wins LeBron averaged 37-8-7 on 55% shooting with 2 blocks and 2 steals while shutting Pierce down to 12-3-3 on 28% shooting.

NO ONE is going to be able to do that against Boston for four games.

I love your argument. "LeBron outscored his all-star matchup by 25 while literally doubling his FG% in two games, therefore he should have done it in every game!"

with that trolling.

The Celtics won because LeBron completely dissapeared in games 4 and 5. He had a triple double in Game 6 though so it doesn’t count .

In Game 4 LeBron had 22-9-8 while holding Pierce to 9-2-2. The Cavs lost because they shot 4-21 from three while Rondo destroyed them with an epic 29-18-13 game.

But yeah, LeBron was the reason they lost that game because he only outscored Pierce by 13 when he needed to outscore him by 25.

The Celtics won because they were dominant in damn near every position EXCEPT Lebron.

Doc Rivers >>>> Mike Brown
Garnett >>>>>> Jamison
Rondo >>>>>> Mo
Ray Allen >>>>>> Anthony Parker
Tony Allen > Delonte West
Rasheed > Varejao
Big Baby > JJ Hickson

The ONLY advantages that Cleveland had were LeBron dominating Pierce and a 38yo Shaq limping around to 13 and 5 with no defense. 1-on-5 basketball rarely works in the modern era.


In Game 5 Mike Brown put LeBron on Rondo for the entire first half, and LeBron held him scoreless for the entire half. But without LeBron on him Paul Pierce went off for something like 17 first-half points, the ONLY time he went off that whole series. The combination of fatigue from guarding Rondo, discouragement from whoever he wasn't guarding going off in every game, inability to shoot with whatever was going on with his arm and discouragement with whatever was going on with him mentally, and he DID shut it down in the 2nd half of Game 5. But they were already screwed because the other Cavs couldn't guard anyone.

In Game 6 LeBron had 27-19-10 on 8-21 shooting while holding Pierce to 13-3-4 on 4-13 shooting. But yeah, LeBron lost that game because he didn't outscore Pierce by 25 again, and it had nothing to do with the fact that Rondo and Garnett completely dominated their matchups while the rest of the Cavs not named LeBron only shot 3-13 from three for the game.

Kobe was absolutely a top 5 player in 2001.

He didn't even make 1st-team All-NBA because Iverson and Kidd were both picked above him. Shaq, Duncan, and Garnett were all clearly better. McGrady, Webber, and Vince Carter were all arguably better too. He finished 9th in MVP voting. And when push came to shove in the NBA Finals he only averaged 24ppg on 41% shooting while Iverson averaged 35ppg on the other end and the Lakers had to bring bench players into the game to guard him cause Kobe couldn't do it.

2001 Kobe is only seen as a top-5 player in 2001 in retrospect cause of what he did in later years - at the time no one was feeling him like that except Kobestans.

 

[Michael's Black Son]

Now, this has always been a bullshyt talking point to begin with but I don’t think anyone ever bothered to ask this question.

Everyone in here would say that Magic and Kareem are top 5 and Mt. Rushmore level players. However, if you bring up Kobe you hear this shyt about three of his rings being practically worthless. But Kobe never played with a top 5 OAT player like Magic or Kareem got to.

What does that then say about Magic and Kareem’s titles? I mean shyt, for all of Kareem’s greatness he was blessed to play with not only Oscar Robertson who is a HOFer, but he then ended up playing with the GOAT point guard in history. And Magic? Well shyt he not only had Kareem, but he also had an amazing team around him with guys like James Worthy, B Scott, Coop, etc. But no one dare question either Magic or Kareem, and rightfully so.

Now call me crazy, but those are insane advantages that they each had. Plus I’m sure most in here would agree that Kareem and Magic were both better than Shaq. Who was whose sidekick there? Nobody right? So why y’all claim Kobe was a sidekick when he very clearly wasn’t?

Why the selective use of this all important talking point? Somebody’s rings shouldn’t count in this according to the prevailing logic which seeks to devalue Kobe’s three titles during the Shaq years. Maybe it’s just time that this dead horse get buried and Kobe is respected as the five time champion that he is without the long since debunked espn talking points about sidekick rings.

Facts. only fukkboys and fakkits try to shyt on Kobe for playing with Shaq as if he was the damn GM or made the swap on draft night.

Kobe put in a ton of work during the Shaq era, put in even more after, was robbed of his proper recognition by the media and had a couple of years wasted while dealing with bums, like the current Lakers coach. No one in LA shades Kobe for playing with Shaq because they saw him everyday and saw what he did for the city. I was very blessed to live in LA during the Shaq/Kobe era when they won the chips and dude was treated like a God out there.

 

[bl2k8]

In those two wins LeBron averaged 37-8-7 on 55% shooting with 2 blocks and 2 steals while shutting Pierce down to 12-3-3 on 28% shooting.

NO ONE is going to be able to do that against Boston for four games.

I love your argument. "LeBron outscored his all-star matchup by 25 while literally doubling his FG% in two games, therefore he should have done it in every game!"

with that trolling.





In Game 4 LeBron had 22-9-8 while holding Pierce to 9-2-2. The Cavs lost because they shot 4-21 from three while Rondo destroyed them with an epic 29-18-13 game.

But yeah, LeBron was the reason they lost that game because he only outscored Pierce by 13 when he needed to outscore him by 25.

The Celtics won because they were dominant in damn near every position EXCEPT Lebron.

Doc Rivers >>>> Mike Brown
Garnett >>>>>> Jamison
Rondo >>>>>> Mo
Ray Allen >>>>>> Anthony Parker
Tony Allen > Delonte West
Rasheed > Varejao
Big Baby > JJ Hickson

The ONLY advantages that Cleveland had were LeBron dominating Pierce and a 38yo Shaq limping around to 13 and 5 with no defense. 1-on-5 basketball rarely works in the modern era.


In Game 5 Mike Brown put LeBron on Rondo for the entire first half, and LeBron held him scoreless for the entire half. But without LeBron on him Paul Pierce went off for something like 17 first-half points, the ONLY time he went off that whole series. The combination of fatigue from guarding Rondo, discouragement from whoever he wasn't guarding going off in every game, inability to shoot with whatever was going on with his arm and discouragement with whatever was going on with him mentally, and he DID shut it down in the 2nd half of Game 5. But they were already screwed because the other Cavs couldn't guard anyone.

In Game 6 LeBron had 27-19-10 on 8-21 shooting while holding Pierce to 13-3-4 on 4-13 shooting. But yeah, LeBron lost that game because he didn't outscore Pierce by 25 again, and it had nothing to do with the fact that Rondo and Garnett completely dominated their matchups while the rest of the Cavs not named LeBron only shot 3-13 from three for the game.




He didn't even make 1st-team All-NBA because Iverson and Kidd were both picked above him. Shaq, Duncan, and Garnett were all clearly better. McGrady, Webber, and Vince Carter were all arguably better too. He finished 9th in MVP voting. And when push came to shove in the NBA Finals he only averaged 24ppg on 41% shooting while Iverson averaged 35ppg on the other end and the Lakers had to bring bench players into the game to guard him cause Kobe couldn't do it.

2001 Kobe is only seen as a top-5 player in 2001 in retrospect cause of what he did in later years - at the time no one was feeling him like that except Kobestans.

Bron was 7-18 in game 4 which you failed to mention and 7 turnovers
Bron was 3-15 in game 5 which you also failed to mention. Everyone wasn’t wondering wtf was wrong with him at this point, similar to Miami the next year in the Finals. They also questioned if he had quit on the squad



In case you forgot. I know you LeBron stans like to revise history. The internet still exist though

Windhorst: What's wrong with LeBron?

NY Daily News - We are currently unavailable in your region

 

[bucks3115]

Shaq the GOAT and

Prime Shaq > Prime Kobe

Was a great era the way Shaq carried those teams

Spoiler

Martha

dat spoiler

rep

 

[10bandz]

Hakeem Olajuwon is the one Kobe really isn’t near. TD is better than Kobe as well but ok breh, we’ll give Kobe that top 5-7 all-time stimulus even though history tells us otherwise.


That’s usually how these debates go. Emotion prioritized over facts

TD spent the entire second half of his career averaging like 15ppg whereas Kobe was elite until year 17. HISTORY tells us Kobe the only modern star win titles, get rid of the entire cast and completely rebuild from scratch to win even more titles. fukk outta here. REAL PROS SIDE WITH KOBE, DORKS ON THE NET DON'T - PERIOD.

 

[10bandz]

Bron was 7-18 in game 4 which you failed to mention and 7 turnovers
Bron was 3-15 in game 5 which you also failed to mention. Everyone wasn’t wondering wtf was wrong with him at this point, similar to Miami the next year in the Finals. They also questioned if he had quit on the squad



In case you forgot. I know you LeBron stans like to revise history. The internet still exist though

Windhorst: What's wrong with LeBron?

NY Daily News - We are currently unavailable in your region

Cleveland was heavily favored to win that series. By vegas standards it was one of the biggest upsets in playoff history

Kobe also was leading the league in scoring in 2001 until Phil told him to fall back.....he totally dominated the first 3 rounds of the playoffs.....but he wasn't top 5

 

[Sccit]

I SEE @Rhakim GETTIN SONNED IN THIS THREAD, AS USUAL.

ANYBODY WHO STILL BRINGS UP SHAQ TO TALK SHIIT AFTER KOBE WENT BACK 2 BACK WIT PAU AS A SECOND FIDDLE IS A LOSER. PERIOD.

 

[McPiff]

I see the kobe fanbase doing the exact same thing they criticize other fanbases for.

 

[Professor Emeritus]

Bron was 7-18 in game 4 which you failed to mention and 7 turnovers

You were talking about a 22-9-8 game with dominant shutdown defense as if it's a terrible, game-losing performance because he went 7-18 from the field.

Fool, Kobe won Finals MVP while averaging 9-23 shooting in the Finals against Boston, and he was contributing less than Bron on the boards, playmaking and defense.

And LeBron shot 45% with 43 assists to 27 turnovers in his Boston series in 2010.
While Kobe shot 40% with 27 assists to 27 turnovers in his Boston series in 2010.

You really want to ride on fg% and turnovers being the proof that Bron was terrible against Boston?

If your argument is that you suck and cost the team the game if you shoot 40%, then Kobe has some explaining to do for most of his Finals career.

Bron was 3-15 in game 5 which you also failed to mention. Everyone wasn’t wondering wtf was wrong with him at this point, similar to Miami the next year in the Finals. They also questioned if he had quit on the squad



In case you forgot. I know you LeBron stans like to revise history. The internet still exist though

Windhorst: What's wrong with LeBron?

NY Daily News - We are currently unavailable in your region

I did say that LeBron was fatigued, discouraged, had some mental shyt going on, and shut it down in the 2nd half of that game. Of course the net is gonna talk any time LeBron has a bad game - it almost never happens. But you can't ignore that being forced to blanket Rondo for an entire half and losing by double-digits anyway while PP went off on his teammates contributed to that.

Kobe, meanwhile, had a 12-point game, a 15-point game, a 13-point game, a 4-12 for 14-point game in a GAME 7, a 5-24 game, and a 6-24 performance in a GAME 7 IN THE FINALS, all in the 2009 and 2010 postseasons alone, and didn't take a hit at all. Not to mention getting knocked out of the 2008 Finals with a 39-point loss in a 7-22 game just after turning in an 8-21 game and 6-19 game back-to-back. And he's a player whose overall game is MUCH more reliant on scoring than LeBron's game is.

But Lakers fans don't consider that a hit on his rep at all, cause even Kobestans expect Kobe to throw up shyt games every so often, especially in the Finals. Kobe couldn't buy a series unless he had a stacked frontcourt that could cover for all those misses. LeBron wasn't able to afford that luxury - even when he left Cleveland the first time and joined better squads, they weren't winning games unless LeBron showed out.

 

[bl2k8]

You were talking about a 22-9-8 game with dominant shutdown defense as if it's a terrible, game-losing performance because he went 7-18 from the field.

Fool, Kobe won Finals MVP while averaging 9-23 shooting in the Finals against Boston, and he was contributing less than Bron on the boards, playmaking and defense.

And LeBron shot 45% with 43 assists to 27 turnovers in his Boston series in 2010.
While Kobe shot 40% with 27 assists to 27 turnovers in his Boston series in 2010.

You really want to ride on fg% and turnovers being the proof that Bron was terrible against Boston?

If your argument is that you suck and cost the team the game if you shoot 40%, then Kobe has some explaining to do for most of his Finals career.





I did say that LeBron was fatigued, discouraged, had some mental shyt going on, and shut it down in the 2nd half of that game. Of course the net is gonna talk any time LeBron has a bad game - it almost never happens.

Kobe, meanwhile, had a 12-point game, a 15-point game, a 13-point game, a 4-12 for 14-point game in a GAME 7, a 5-24 game, and a 6-24 performance in a GAME 7 IN THE FINALS, all in the 2009 and 2010 postseasons alone, and didn't take a hit at all. Not to mention getting knocked out of the 2008 Finals with a 39-point loss in a 7-22 game just after turning in an 8-21 game and 6-19 game back-to-back. And he's a player whose overall game is MUCH more reliant on scoring than LeBron's game is.

But Lakers fans don't consider that a hit on his rep at all, cause even Kobestans expect Kobe to throw up shyt games every so often, especially in the Finals. Kobe couldn't buy a series unless he had a stacked frontcourt that could cover for all those misses. LeBron wasn't able to afford that luxury - even when he left Cleveland the first time and joined better squads, they weren't winning games unless LeBron showed out.

Why would a 25 year old LeBron be tired and discouraged one game removed from giving the Celtics their worst L in the history of the playoffs.

The internet and media people in real life shytted on Kobe for his 6-24 in the Finals stop being disingenuous.

LeBron was 9-24 in Game 7 against Golde State and you would never know it because the media is on LeBrons dikk 24/7.

Your boy is finally being called out on his bullshyt because Laker fans have to witness the circus everyday realize how fake it is

 

[Taadow]

yeah Ok breh. The list of pro ballers execs and legends cosinging Kobe has been posted here tons of times. But I know you Kobe haters try very hard to ignore all of that to time and time again to pretend like Kobe stans created these narratives out of thin air

Fool, you allege that NO "exec or legend" would have Kobe less than 7th all time.

That's what you said.

You literally created that out of thin air.





Boy, gone.