Question: Why is it always held against Kobe that he played with Shaq when Magic had Kareem?

[2Quik4UHoes]

Outside shooting- Bird
Post Game- Bird
Passing- Bird
Facilitating- Bird
Offensive Rebound- Bird
Mid Range Efficency- Wash
Volume Scoring- Kobe
Being able to play different roles- Bird

 

[Rakim Allah]

So we’re not going to take into account the fact that Shaq faced much more inferior comp than Kobe did in the finals? Or are we also going to ignore the amount of heavy lifting Kobe did in the West playoffs?

Sorry, Finals MVP barely tells the story. There’s more that this is measured on than just popularity trophies.

Popularity trophies voted in by the MEDIA..

 

[Absolut da poet ®]

Name 10 players better than Kobe. Realistically

Jordan
LeBron
Hakeem
Kareem
Shaq
Oscar Robertson
Tim Duncan
Wilt
Kobe nope can't do it

if you're from that era why are you acting like Kareem didn't even play in the 1980 finals? He averaged 33 and 13 with 4.6 blocks a game through 5 games.

Dumbass nikkas man

Kareem didn't play in game 6

Which helped boost Magic because he won it without him and it was his first

If Kobe had done something similar with Shaq then he would've been seen as the guy more than he was

 

[Rakim Allah]

I'm comfortable with Kobe being ranked somewhere around #10

I guess you could say Top 5 is "somewhere around #10"

 

[Rakim Allah]

His defense was decent but the media overrated it, kobe was getting 1st team all defense off name and made it over wade a couple seasons when he shouldn't have

the media dumb af they gave westbrook mvp over harden based off averaging a triple double

the media didn't select defensive teams or players.

Oh I see and hear that shyt all the time, on and off the net.

Even in this thread you got guys rating Bean too high and ’n at the notion of dudes like Duncan or Hakeem being better than him...

Like uhhh ... they was

Only two titles .

Have the GOAT coach while playing in a small market for your ENTIRE career, and NOT defend your title at least once brehs.

 

[Controversy]

How are those "excuses"? Those are the reasons that the Magic lost those years. If Shaq was better at that stage in his career he would have overcome them. What's the difference between an excuse and a reason to you?




They weren't any luckier than the Lakers were in 2009 (barely beating Houston even after both McGrady and Yao got hurt and the bullshyt Artest ejection, not having to face Boston after Garnett got hurt, not having to face Cleveland after Orlando took them out) or 2010 (Pau had to put back Kobe's missed layin at the buzzer to keep the Thunder series from going 7, then they would have got it handed to them by the Celtics if Perkins doesn't get hurt, Ray doesn't have to play injured, and the Lakers don't get mad free throws in the last two games).

Boston was the clear best team in the NBA for the entire season in 2008 and they won the deciding game by 39 points. You don't have a great case that Bynum (a 20yo who was just finding himself that season and had never done shyt in the playoffs) or Ariza (the 10th man who only missed 1 Finals game) would have been the difference makers.

Cleveland came closer than the Lakers did, LeBron only lost Game 7 by five points and that's with a sudden lucky-ass scoring spree by fukking P.J. Brown.

I'm gonna bookmark this though, you actually made an excuse for the Lakers cause their 10th-man missed one game.




You're right that Tim Duncan was only a top-5 player until he was 32. Why is that the imaginary cut-off, rather than top-4 or top-7?

And Kobe dominated in 2008 because Ginobli got hurt and the rest of the Spurs' swing players were useless 40 year olds.

He killed the Spurs throughout his career. No one else can say they sent Timmy fishing 4x.

 

[Rakim Allah]

Ima save that for another thread. For right now, I think most of us have come to agreement that in 2019 the “Kobe had Shaq” talking point is officially dead.

That talking point was deaded with ether after Kobe won in 09 and buried in insane amounts of ether after Kobe defended his title in 10. Unfortunately it seems too many posters on board still have high levels of ether within in their bloodstreams.

 

[Rakim Allah]

Exactly. Why should subjective awards be the end all be all in this discussion? At this point most of the basketball criticisms of Kobe are bullshyt.

Defending your title at least once and winning without Shaq...twice...in a row...is not subjective.

 

[Rakim Allah]

Bird is the most debatable. The best argument for Bird is that he was a better leader made the right decisions and did everything it took to win rather than arguing over shots or volume shooting his team out of games. I rank Bird higher than Kobe, but I can understand the argument for Kobe.

Duncan was a more impactful all-around player than Kobe, someone who could control the game in multiple different ways. Kobe can be a net negative if he isn't hitting shots, Duncan could dominate the court whether his shots were falling or not. His 1999-2005 stretch (2 MVPs, 2 MVP runner-ups, and 3 Finals MVPs despite having to face prime Shaq that whole time and having a very average supporting cast) was a far more dominant stretch than any stretch in Kobe's career. He was clearly the best player on his team for 4 titles and borderline for the 5th, and was the clear team leader in all five.

Spoiler

This is Duncan's 1999-2005 super-peak:
1999: 22-11-2 with 2.5 blocks/game, 23-12-3 with 3 blocks/game in the playoffs, 3rd in MVP, 5th DPOY, 27-14-2 and 2 blocks/game in the finals for Finals MVP

2000: 23-12-3 with 2 blocks/game, All-Star MVP, injured and missed playoffs, 5th in MVP (shut down early with injury)

2001: 22-12-3 with 2 blocks/game, 24-15-4 with 3 blocks/game in the playoffs, 2nd in MVP, 3rd DPOY

2002: 26-13-4 with 2.5 blocks/game, 28-14-5 with 4 blocks/game in the playoffs, Won MVP

2003: 23-13-4 with 3 blocks/game, 25-15-5 with 3 blocks/game in the playoffs, Won MVP, 4th DPOY, 25-17-5 and 5 blocks/game in the finals for Finals MVP

2004: 22-12-3 with 3 blocks/game, 22-11-3 with 2 blocks/game in the playoffs, 2nd in MVP, 7th DPOY

2005: 20-11-3 with 3 blocks/game, 24-12-3 with 2 blocks/game in the playoffs, 4th in MVP, 4th DPOY, 21-14-2 and 2 blocks/game in the finals for Finals MVP

Hakeem was one of the best all-around players in history. Prime Hakeem was absolutely dominant on both sides of the ball and had virtually no flaws in his game. He would step up in the playoffs every year, one of the few superstars in history who got MORE dominant in playoff time. His shytty supporting casts really hurt his legacy, but the title runs in 1994 and 1995 were extraordinary. I have Hakeem in my top-5 and you could make an argument for #4.

Yet Duncan couldn't IMPACT his team enough to defend at least one of his titles.

 

[Professor Emeritus]

Why would a 25 year old LeBron be tired and discouraged one game removed from giving the Celtics their worst L in the history of the playoffs.

You saying there's some sort of magic where a 270lb forward can guard a 185lb guard for an entire half and not get tired?

Not to mention having to play nearly 40 minutes/game putting up 30-7-9 and being the team's dominant defender in the regular season only to get bumped up to 42 minutes/game in the playoffs.

He was discouraged because after averaging 37-8-7 while shutting down Pierce for two games to get the Cavs up, he held Pierce to just 9 points and they STILL lost cause none of his teammates could guard Rondo or Garnett, then his coach moved him to Rondo and he shut him down for an entire half only to still be losing cause none of his teammates could guard Pierce, Ray, or Garnett.

Which was just a replay of the year before, when he was dominating Orlando to the tune of 39-8-8 averages and yet still losing cause none of his teammates could guard Dwight, Rashard, Hedo, or Skip to my Lou.

Kobe got discouraged and quit in just his SECOND year without Shaq cause his teammates weren't good enough to satisfy him, and at least he had Odom. LeBron was finishing his SEVENTH year with the Cavs and the best acquistion they had managed that entire time was Mo freaking Williams, and you're surprised he was discouraged?

The internet and media people in real life shytted on Kobe for his 6-24 in the Finals stop being disingenuous.

LeBron was 9-24 in Game 7 against Golde State and you would never know it because the media is on LeBrons dikk 24/7.

I know you can't be a Kobestan and be competent at math at the same time, but this talking point just takes it too far.

Breh, 9/24 is FIFTY PERCENT better than 6/24.

9/24 is as close to being 12/24 as it is 6/24.

6/24 is absolute dogshyt. 9/24 is only one shot away from Kobe's career Finals average.

Or another way to put it, LeBron shot better in that game than Steph, Klay, Barnes, Iggy, Love, and both benches. He was only one shot away from shooting better than either team. While Kobe shot over 10 percentage points worse than his teammates did and 15 percentage points worse than Boston did.

You know you've really got a Kobestan on your hands when he's saying, "So what if Kobe shot 25% in an elimination game. LeBron shot 38% once, so there!"

Not to mention that most people realize that making 9 shots and 11 assists is slightly better than 6 shots and 2 assists.

 

[Professor Emeritus]

Yet Duncan couldn't IMPACT his team enough to defend at least one of his titles.

Kobestans actually pretend to believe that winning in 1999, 2003, 2005, 2007, and 2014 is somehow inferior to winning in 1999, 2003, 2004, 2007, and 2014.

Ya'all really can't believe in talking points this dumb.

Go back to trying to claim that 9 is the same as 6.

 

[Rakim Allah]

Spoiler

Hakeem was one of the best all-around players in history. Prime Hakeem was absolutely dominant on both sides of the ball and had virtually no flaws in his game. He would step up in the playoffs every year, one of the few superstars in history who got MORE dominant in playoff time. His shytty supporting casts really hurt his legacy, but the title runs in 1994 and 1995 were extraordinary. I have Hakeem in my top-5 and you could make an argument for #4.

Can we put Duncan's greatness in the correct context. He was a top 5 player from 98-05. He wasn't an elite player after 07.

Kobe was a top 5 player from 00-13.

Kobe is 4-2 vs Duncan in the playoffs. When they matched up I never felt Tim was the best player on the court. Kobe snatches his soul too many times, hence him being the Spurs Killer.

Duncan was regarded later in his career bc the talent pool of big men weakened compared to 90s & early 00s.

Kobe was a top 3 player overall in year 17 and the only thing that held Kob back from more accolades was Mr. Pringle's (playing him to the point he tore his Achilles).

Kobe won a gold medal while Tim won bronze. I'm done.

[/QUOTE]
Duncan't couldn't defend any of his titles. Once that season/playoff long bullseye and media pressure was his and the Spurs back, after winning a title, he and the Spurs folded like usual.

 

[Rakim Allah]

Kobestans actually pretend to believe that winning in 1999, 2003, 2005, 2007, and 2014 is somehow inferior to winning in 1999, 2003, 2004, 2007, and 2014.

Ya'all really can't believe in talking points this dumb.

Go back to trying to claim that 9 is the same as 6.

Not defending your title at least once while playing in a low pressure small media market under the GOAT coach your ENTIRE career...is YES, inferior

Duncan'tstans ignore that like they do Duncan't 's 2005 Finals Game 7...where he went 10-27.

 

[Bryan Danielson]

Jordan
LeBron
Hakeem
Kareem
Shaq
Oscar Robertson
Tim Duncan
Wilt
Kobe nope can't do it


Kareem didn't play in game 6

Which helped boost Magic because he won it without him and it was his first

If Kobe had done something similar with Shaq then he would've been seen as the guy more than he was

And I would also add Barkley, KD, KG, AI, Pippin, Harden, and TMAC



Martha

 

[Professor Emeritus]

Not defending your title at least once while playing in a low pressure small media market under the GOAT coach your ENTIRE career...is YES, inferior

It's not inferior, it's arbitrary. Winning in 2003 and 2005 is EXACTLY as good as winning in 2003 and 2004.

And now you're gonna pretend like winning in a small market is easier than winning in a big one when the VAST majority of titles are won by big market teams.

And let's bring up coaching. That's a great talking point! Duncan only won under Pop. Kobe only won under Phil.

Now remind me who LeBron carried to titles?

You're the one who just brought up coaching quality like it was a hammer. So who is inferior now?

Duncan'tstans ignore that like they do Duncan't 's 2005 Finals Game 7...where he went 10-27.

I swear you're a troll just trying to set up the worst possible arguments for Kobe.

First you brought up market size, then you brought up coaching quality, and now you're gonna bring up FG%?

Against one of the best defensive teams assembled, Duncan shot 10-27 with steller defense anchoring the middle to help pull out an 81-74 series win.

His 37% shooting in that game was better than TP (27%), Rip (33%), Prince (31%), and almost as good as Chauncey (38%).

You know what other Finals games it was better than?

Kobe 2000 Game 2
Kobe 2000 Game 5
Kobe 2000 Game 6
Kobe 2001 Game 1
Kobe 2002 Game 1
Kobe 2004 Game 1
Kobe 2004 Game 3
Kobe 2004 Game 4
Kobe 2004 Game 5
Kobe 2008 Game 1
Kobe 2008 Game 4
Kobe 2008 Game 6
Kobe 2009 Game 4
Kobe 2010 Game 3
Kobe 2010 Game 7

Duncan's Game 7 against the Pistons was better than 80% of Kobe's performances in the Finals against the same team the year before.

But again, this is a fanbase that thinks that 37-38% is the same as 25%.