Question: Why is it always held against Kobe that he played with Shaq when Magic had Kareem?

Noah

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Here would be my rationale for Bird above Kobe:

-Bird was a better passer and arguably a better decision-maker in general. Backpicks did a great series covering the top 40 NBA careers of all-time and the author spent a lot of time watching film and basing his rankings off of that, peak performance, and statistical analysis. The author puts Bird's passing on par with Nash, Magic, and LeBron. If you're curious, the site is here: The Backpicks GOAT: The 40 Best Careers in NBA History

-Bird was much better off-ball, allowing him to anchor perennially great offenses without mucking up the offense or shooting Boston out of games. He has an efficiency advantage compared to Kobe.

-Bird finished top-3 in MVP voting every year from 1981-1988. What's even crazier is that he finished third just one time; he was first or runner-up the other seven times.The only ones who had a comparable stretch are LeBron ('09-'16), Jordan ('87-'93, '96-'98), Russell ('58-'65), and Magic ('83-'91). That's it. Kobe didn't have a period like this in terms of MVP voting record, but one could argue it impossible to always finish top-2 or 3 in a league with LeBron, Duncan, KG, Nash, Dirk, and Wade. But having said that, Bird did it in a league with Moses Malone, Magic, Jordan, Barkley, Kareem, and Dr. J. Maybe MVP voting isn't the best metric to look at, but it was mostly to illustrate Bird's dominance and status as one of the GOATs during that stretch. Lot of people were calling him the best they'd ever seen until Jordan came through.

Here would be my rationale for Kobe above Bird:

-Kobe was a better man-to-man defender and perimeter defender, which is important if you consider Bird a wing as well. Kobe's athleticism enabled him to do things that Bird never could, not to mention Kobe was an elite defender when he was younger anyways. Bird made some All-Defense teams early in his career, but his impact was much different on that end. He played a lot more free safety and generally handled the slower forward, never considered him great at that end (McHale covered up a lot of weaknesses).

-Kobe has a longer resume and had a sustained period of high-level play into Year 17 (on the offensive end anyway), whereas Bird's body forced him to retire much earlier. If legacy, longevity, and path to the Finals is weighed heavier than some other things, then this would be where I'd hammer home Kobe>Bird. The relative strength of the league and the '80s Eastern Conference vs. the '00s Western Conference are also some things to consider.

-Kobe was a cut above as a volume scorer. There is something to be said about Kobe's relative inefficiency among the rest of the all-time greats, but they've pretty much all already been said. Kobe was better at creating off the dribble and from the perimeter on in.
 

Yungin

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Wow, so in other words you have no real argument as to why Larry better than Kobe. :russ:

Duncan never repeated or successfully defended his title but he’s a more impactful player? How sway? :dahell:

If Kobe isn’t hitting shots he can crash the boards, draw fouls, play decoy and make plays for others, etc. da fukk you mean he’s a net negative if his shot isn’t falling? :dahell:

Duncan couldn’t have had a better run than Kobe if he never repeated once. Numbers lie too, and a player that supposedly is better than Kobe should’ve repeated at least once and should have the upper hand in head to head playoff matchups.

I don’t have a problem with Hakeem being in the top 5. But Kobe has won in many different situations having to juggle egos and learn how to lead and succeed at it. So his playoff exploits are impressive as well.

Man I’m bout to go do some homework I’ll be back later. :russ:[/QUOTE]

I just broke that niccas whole sh*t down:mjgrin:
 

2Quik4UHoes

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Here would be my rationale for Bird above Kobe:

-Bird was a better passer and arguably a better decision-maker in general. Backpicks did a great series covering the top 40 NBA careers of all-time and the author spent a lot of time watching film and basing his rankings off of that, peak performance, and statistical analysis. The author puts Bird's passing on par with Nash, Magic, and LeBron. If you're curious, the site is here: The Backpicks GOAT: The 40 Best Careers in NBA History

-Bird was much better off-ball, allowing him to anchor perennially great offenses without mucking up the offense or shooting Boston out of games. He has an efficiency advantage compared to Kobe.

-Bird finished top-3 in MVP voting every year from 1981-1988. What's even crazier is that he finished third just one time; he was first or runner-up the other seven times.The only ones who had a comparable stretch are LeBron ('09-'16), Jordan ('87-'93, '96-'98), Russell ('58-'65), and Magic ('83-'91). That's it. Kobe didn't have a period like this in terms of MVP voting record, but one could argue it impossible to always finish top-2 or 3 in a league with LeBron, Duncan, KG, Nash, Dirk, and Wade. But having said that, Bird did it in a league with Moses Malone, Magic, Jordan, Barkley, Kareem, and Dr. J. Maybe MVP voting isn't the best metric to look at, but it was mostly to illustrate Bird's dominance and status as one of the GOATs during that stretch. Lot of people were calling him the best they'd ever seen until Jordan came through.

Here would be my rationale for Kobe above Bird:

-Kobe was a better man-to-man defender and perimeter defender, which is important if you consider Bird a wing as well. Kobe's athleticism enabled him to do things that Bird never could, not to mention Kobe was an elite defender when he was younger anyways. Bird made some All-Defense teams early in his career, but his impact was much different on that end. He played a lot more free safety and generally handled the slower forward, never considered him great at that end (McHale covered up a lot of weaknesses).

-Kobe has a longer resume and had a sustained period of high-level play into Year 17 (on the offensive end anyway), whereas Bird's body forced him to retire much earlier. If legacy, longevity, and path to the Finals is weighed heavier than some other things, then this would be where I'd hammer home Kobe>Bird. The relative strength of the league and the '80s Eastern Conference vs. the '00s Western Conference are also some things to consider.

-Kobe was a cut above as a volume scorer. There is something to be said about Kobe's relative inefficiency among the rest of the all-time greats, but they've pretty much all already been said. Kobe was better at creating off the dribble and from the perimeter on in.

I would say you’re grossly underrating Kobe as a passer and playmaker and Kobe imo was just as good off ball but wasn’t called to do that much nor did he particularly want to.

Kobe lost a lot of allies in the media after Colorado and played on bad teams during his most prolific individual years so partly his luck and partly his own doing as to why he didn’t have the MVP numbers he should’ve regarding votes and wins.
 

Yungin

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Nope, just saying that in 2009 and 2010, the competition was so weak that you didn't need an ATG in order to win a title. If the two best players on the court are both on your team, then you're obviously starting out in a damn good place. Unless you are outcoached or have a major hole somewhere else, you should be able to put that away without the #1 player even having to play that good.


1. Paul Pierce was the best player on the Celtics
2. Paul Gasol didn’t go against dwight Bynum did
 

Noah

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I would say you’re grossly underrating Kobe as a passer and playmaker and Kobe imo was just as good off ball but wasn’t called to do that much nor did he particularly want to.

Kobe lost a lot of allies in the media after Colorado and played on bad teams during his most prolific individual years so partly his luck and partly his own doing as to why he didn’t have the MVP numbers he should’ve regarding votes and wins.

It’s not necessarily that Kobe was bad in that respect, just that Bird was great in a way few others are/were. Fair point about Kobe’s perception in the media. Those mid 2000s MVPs are so hard to judge, but I would point to where Allen Iverson got placed in 2006 despite putting up 33 and 7 assists on average efficiency. He got like 1 vote, but it was fair given Philadelphia’s lack of success. Based on that, even though Kobe put up 35-5-5, it seemed more fair for him not to place first if Nash, LeBron, and Dirk all led more successful teams while also putting up great numbers. Who knows though, Kobe without the rape/snitching baggage arguably ends up MVP for that year.
 

Yungin

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Shaq averaged 32 and 9 on 56% shooting in that series.

Kobe averaged 10-1-1 on 37% shooting in that series and was so bad that Phil Jackson basically benched him by game 4.

Only in Kobestan does that somehow prove Kobe's greatness. :mjlol:



And "4 all-stars" is an idiot talking point.

One of those 4 all-stars was Kobe, so you want to count his weak ass as an all-star but then put all the blame on Shaq as if Kobe wasn't even there.

Another all-star was Nick van Exel averaging 13 and 7 on 42% shooting that year, often listed as one of the weakest all-star picks in history.

And the last was Eddie Jones with his 17-3-3 stats.

In a normal year that would have been ZERO all-stars other than Shaq.


So basically every year they lost it was Kobe’s fault and the three years they won it was all shaq? Because I’ve yet to see u put any blame on shaq for losing all those years being the “most dominating force ever” . U continue to blame Kobe for losing but then say he was a sidekick and act like he wasn’t important . So shouldn’t most of the blame be on shaq the clear cut leader Batman alpha male? :patrice:
 

10bandz

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So basically every year they lost it was Kobe’s fault and the three years they won it was all shaq? Because I’ve yet to see u put any blame on shaq for losing all those years being the “most dominating force ever” . U continue to blame Kobe for losing but then say he was a sidekick and act like he wasn’t important . So shouldn’t most of the blame be on shaq the clear cut leader Batman alpha male? :patrice:


right he wants to blame 19 year old Kobe cuz Shaq couldn't lead a 61 win team to the Finals with several AS teammates :mjlol:
 

Reece

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For the same reason Kobe is hated for winning no Finals MVPs with Shaq but nobody cares Kareem only won 2 Finals MVPs out the 6 rings he won.

Truthfully that argument was declared fully retarded now that Steph Curry has went three rings without getting the trophy.

But the Kobe hate is too strong to understand reason :yeshrug:
 

Reece

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Ignore the fact that a early 20s bean was responsible for keeping that fat unmotivated bum accountable.... Without Kobe shaq would have been a glorified Eddie curry

If Shaq had to play against Tim Duncan or the Sacramento Kings big men in the Finals, Kobe would’ve got 1-2 Finals MVPs instead and that whole narrative would be dead in the water. Kobe always spazzed on the Spurs and the Kings since they held Shaq down (relatively, Shaq went from averaging 29 or 30 to 23 or 25 a game).
 

Cladyclad

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Another thing that’s sick that Kobe had to do unlike Shaq,Tim,Bron, KD or even Curry.

Kobe was on a team that went to the finals.
The next year only 2 people return
3 years later he was in the finals

Duncan had Tony & Manu pretty much the whole ride
Shaq paired with the new Kobe
Bron had to form a super team (twice)
KD=Snake
Curry cool but they beat Bron with Ky & Love. And then Snake came

Kobe literally had a team built around him from scratch. He wasn’t even in his prime physically and still won through a rebuild mode

Someone show me a elite hooper go through a rebuild and won a ring

I could be wrong. I need another example
 

10bandz

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Another thing that’s sick that Kobe had to do unlike Shaq,Tim,Bron, KD or even Curry.

Kobe was on a team that went to the finals.
The next year only 2 people return
3 years later he was in the finals

Duncan had Tony & Manu pretty much the whole ride
Shaq paired with the new Kobe
Bron had to form a super team (twice)
KD=Snake
Curry cool but they beat Bron with Ky & Love. And then Snake came

Kobe literally had a team built around him from scratch. He wasn’t even in his prime physically and still won through a rebuild mode

Someone show me a elite hooper go through a rebuild and won a ring

I could be wrong. I need another example

Repped. Kobe doesn't get enough credit for that shyt at all. People always ask "which player would you start a team from scratch with?" Lakers literally did that with Kobe and were back to contenders in 3 years.
 

NoHalfWay

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you mean former players, including legends, hype him up to be top 3 and top 5 of all time.
In what context tho? As him being one of their personal favorites, or in a actual historical perspective demonstrating the hierarchy of all time greats?

Cuz I’m sure more former players and people in general name Kobe on all time list before Duncan because of the Lakers lure and his mamba mentality, but Bean wasn’t quite on his level.
 
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