Martin Scorsese - Marvel movies are 'not cinema'

[Dr. Narcisse]

Newsflash....I honestly feel Scorsese overall point is right. Blockbuster film-making has fell off horribly in the last 20 years it's not even funny. And yes they are basically "Amusement Park" Rides in the Theater. Thin Plots, average acting, and no depth and after you get off the ride that's it and you move on. The Antagonist are average as well. Marvel is an easy target because of the popularity but I'm talking broadly. Look, there is room for popcorn fluff, not everyone movie has to be "Deep" but this idea that these comic book films are some "High Art" just isn't there. "The Dark Knight Trilogy", "Logan" and yes recently "Joker" all give me hope in the future but most of them are basically Saturday Morning Cartoons blown up on the Big Screen to sell toys and merchandise. And before you mention Lucas and Spielberg who yes created this "Blockbuster Monster", they're films had much more depth than the blockbusters today overall. I'm not going to get into the whole "This is or isn't Cinema" because I don't feel that's the point.

Look at "Joker", it was a comic book movie that was more of a character study, it had depth and wasn't over processed with visual effects and spectacle. It was much better than a majority of comic book movies I've seen in the last 15 years. Also "Joker" HEAVILY Bit Scorsese, it wasn't even funny. I can't wait to see the "Irishman", I know it's gonna be fire. Also Marty does not give a damn about "Box Office" or "Awards". He was snubbed for decades. All box office studies have shown ticket sales are way down and are being inflated by higher ticket prices and an expanding overseas markets. Most Marvel Movies haven't not sold more tickets than the Blockbusters of the 80's and 90's. Shoot, "Endgame" did not sell more tickets than "Avatar" either and lost to "Force Awakens" Domestically. The bottom line when it comes to the MCU, I honestly don't expect a movie like "Logan" or "Joker" to come from them. They are honestly more marketing to kids, this is how Disney operates. Like I said, Saturday Morning Cartoons for Adults that they can bring their kids too. Doesn't mean you can't enjoy them or have fun watching them but let's not act like these comic book films are "Groundbreaking" Cinema because they aren't.

I got more “depth” and “meaning” out of Black Panther than ANY Scorsese or Coppola flick of the past 10 years.


And the BONUS was I didn’t hear the word ****** said not ONCE in the entire movie!


Who woulda thought

They respect technological advancements and use them to their benefit but what they want to do is maintain some semblance of the human element that's been lost in a lot of blockbuster kid movie cash grabs.

I could listen to those two talk film for hours

How did I forget Coogler?I have to let Reeves actually drop his Batman flick before I consider him someone doing cbms.

That's the point. He's been in the game for so long, his classic films are some of the best movies ever. Not just classics, but some of the best classics ever.

Again... I don't think they are "right" to say its not cinema. However, I get where they are coming from.

Look at Black Panther. Its thematically by FAR the richest film in the the MCU. However, its trapped in the MCU. The great thing about the MCU is that it allows for a movie like that to even exist. The issue becomes its confined to the soundstages, filmed in Atlanta, stripping the cinematography of its richness through filtering so it looks like every other MCU.

Thats why if you really search the net its a lot people saying its overrated. Why? Because it doesn't have the action or CGI they are use too. Think about that. Now obviously the CGI is high quality in the MCU it just wasn't the case with Black Panther. However, thats the risk when you're dependant on that. Also that audiences are so conditioned to fights/action/cgi that it completely glosses over the world building, story telling, intimate themes of the black diaspora . Now we got it. Some didn't? Why?

Because its made to look like everything else and that cinematic language gets lost and some of wonderful directing/writing gets lost as well on others. Its why you here doubters say "Oh its just a typical Marvel movie"

I love Black Panther and think its the best MCU film or at least near the top. However, I can't shake one thought...


Imagine Black Panther OUTSIDE of the MCU. Filmed in Africa, filmed with real sets, Coogler using that Creed level cinematography or shooting on film like with Frutivale Station. Imagine if they didn't cut 30 minutes out of the movie because they weren't focusing on ticket sales.

Movie would have put all them damn Lord of Rings movies to shame.

The MCU is amazing in what its done. However, its a business and a system. Its created so that no movie can fail. And so far none have really. All of them are good to a degree. A few great. Thats a great business model. Its just the system doesn't allow for that potential masterpiece. To be fair it also ensures that it doesn't give us a film like those last two X-Men movies.

Here's hoping they let Coogler/Taika get more freedom on their sequels though. Those dudes are talented enough where you can let the reigns go.

 

[wire28]

I got more “depth” and “meaning” out of Black Panther than ANY Scorsese or Coppola flick of the past 10 years.


And the BONUS was I didn’t hear the word ****** said not ONCE in the entire movie!


Who woulda thought

You just don’t understand true cinema, which involves no black people and lots of the use of nikka.

 

[Dr. Narcisse]

To guys like Scorsese/FFC

The MCU is like hip hop thats overproduced. The lyrics are dope, but some of the feeling is stripped away. Tough to connect too.

However, if you're conditioned to everything sounding the same...it won't matter as much.

 

[wire28]

The KKK is despicable.

Mass shooters are despicable.

Pedophiles are despicable.

I'm sorry but calling comic movies "despicable" is grade A clown shyt. And no, I'm not willing to give dude a pass because he directed some of my favorite movies.

Cats need to stop shytting on these legends in defense of comic movies....but at the same time these cats need to parse their words better. Talking about "they aren't cinema" and "they're despicable" goes beyond criticism and into the realm of hating.

Fred.

Sigh, I thought you understood TRUE cinema, but I guess not.

 

[KingJudah2]

He right all them marvel flicks made for 5 year olds and knuckledragging retarts. If you enjoy them shyts you probably slow

 

[ThirdAct]

Again... I don't think they are "right" to say its not cinema. However, I get where they are coming from.

Look at Black Panther. Its thematically by FAR the richest film in the the MCU. However, its trapped in the MCU. The great thing about the MCU is that it allows for a movie like that to even exist. The issue becomes its confined to the soundstages, filmed in Atlanta, stripping the cinematography of its richness through filtering so it looks like every other MCU.

Thats why if you really search the net its a lot people saying its overrated. Why? Because it doesn't have the action or CGI they are use too. Think about that. Now obviously the CGI is high quality in the MCU it just wasn't the case with Black Panther. However, thats the risk when you're dependant on that. Also that audiences are so conditioned to fights/action/cgi that it completely glosses over the world building, story telling, intimate themes of the black diaspora . Now we got it. Some didn't? Why?

Because its made to look like everything else and that cinematic language gets lost and some of wonderful directing/writing gets lost as well on others. Its why you here doubters say "Oh its just a typical Marvel movie"

I love Black Panther and think its the best MCU film or at least near the top. However, I can't shake one thought...


Imagine Black Panther OUTSIDE of the MCU. Filmed in Africa, filmed with real sets, Coogler using that Creed level cinematography or shooting on film like with Frutivale Station. Imagine if they didn't cut 30 minutes out of the movie because they weren't focusing on ticket sales.

Movie would have put all them damn Lord of Rings movies to shame.

The MCU is amazing in what its done. However, its a business and a system. Its created so that no movie can fail. And so far none have really. All of them are good to a degree. A few great. Thats a great business model. Its just the system doesn't allow for that potential masterpiece. To be fair it also ensures that it doesn't give us a film like those last two X-Men movies.

Here's hoping they let Coogler/Taika get more freedom on their sequels though. Those dudes are talented enough where you can let the reigns go.

One hunnid. Great post. Especially the part about the Marvel system. I think we can honestly end this thread after this post cuz you said everything worth saying.

 

[BXKingPin82]

He right all them marvel flicks made for 5 year olds and knuckledragging retarts. If you enjoy them shyts you probably slow

I think you meant to say...

 

[hex]

But Scorsese and Coppola are talking about the movies themselves. They aren't talking about the bonding experiences, good memories or the good deeds that the Avengers actors have done for their fans nor do I doubt they care. They are solely looking at how the movies are affecting cinema itself because that's their primary concern. Marvel fans shouldn't take it as they are being personally attacked.

And again, "artsy" directors are some of the biggest film snobs in the world. Coppola also said A New Hope was shyt the first time he saw it. Many of the 70's auteurs ridiculed the fukk out of Lucas and Spielberg because they thought they sold out (and they were fukkin' FRIENDS with them lol). These dudes, particularly Coppola, have huge egos. And to a point, it's understandable - if people said you made the greatest film EVER, you'd have a huge sense of self worth like Coppola too. Same shyt happened with Kanye - people called him a genius for making some dope music and it completely went to his head.

The problem with this logic is Scorsese said these types of movies "shouldn't be invading theaters".

If someone's bonding experience with their parent, son, daughter, etc. is taking them to the movies....then his statement does shyt on that. Even if it's indirect.

If he stopped at "they aren't cinema" then we're good. Not good, as that can be debated, but all this other shyt I'm saying doesn't apply. But he didn't stop, so here we are.

Let alone the "despicable" comment. Which is retarded for the reasons I pointed out earlier in the thread.

And I don't give a fukk if they care. I don't know these dudes, doubt I'll ever meet them. But I'd be remiss to not point they're increasingly coming off like clowns the more this topic gets discussed.

Fred.

 

[SunZoo]

I was finna write a bunch of shyt, but imma just let you cook. Educate us, king.

"Everybody knew he was talented… Certainly by studying the Iron Man role and developing that script I realized that the character seemed to line-up with Robert in all the good and bad ways. And the story of Iron Man was really the story of Robert’s career.” - Jon Favreau

Jon's casting of RDJ as Ironman was rejected several times because of his past. You have this character who is born into his fathers professional legacy, who is a destructive, self serving alcoholic with all the money he could ever really need and despite him having the genius and the resources to do the job, Nick Fury initially disqualifies him from the Avenger's initiative because of those qualities, RDJ is the embodiment of that.



The Ironman story and the RDJ story run side by side, which is why he's shook stepping away from it though he knows he needs to. Being Ironman did more for him than line his pockets and it obviously did more for the fans than just provide spectacle void of 'human emotion' or any kind of narrative.

Robert Downey Jr. Announces Footprint Coalition to Clean Up the World With Advanced Tech

 

[wire28]

"Everybody knew he was talented… Certainly by studying the Iron Man role and developing that script I realized that the character seemed to line-up with Robert in all the good and bad ways. And the story of Iron Man was really the story of Robert’s career.” - Jon Favreau

Jon's casting of RDJ as Ironman was rejected several times because of his past. You have this character who is born into his fathers professional legacy, who is a destructive, self serving alcoholic with all the money he could ever really need and despite him having the genius and the resources to do the job, Nick Fury initially disqualifies him from the Avenger's initiative because of those qualities, RDJ is the embodiment of that.



The Ironman story and the RDJ story run side by side, which is why he's shook stepping away from it though he knows he needs to. Being Ironman did more for him than line his pockets and it obviously did more for the fans than just provide spectacle void of 'human emotion' or any kind of narrative.

Robert Downey Jr. Announces Footprint Coalition to Clean Up the World With Advanced Tech

i AM ironman

 

[ThirdAct]

The problem with this logic is Scorsese said these types of movies "shouldn't be invading theaters".

If someone's bonding experience with their parent, son, daughter, etc. is taking them to the movies....then his statement does shyt on that. Even if it's indirect.

If he stopped at "they aren't cinema" then we're good. Not good, as that can be debated, but all this other shyt I'm saying doesn't apply. But he didn't stop, so here we are.

And I don't give a fukk if they care. I don't know these dudes, doubt I'll ever meet them. But I'd be remiss to not point they're increasingly coming off like clowns the more this topic gets discussed.

Fred.

My pops took me to a bunch of movies when I was a kid and it's how we bonded. And I'm sure we saw a whole gang of shyt that Scorsese, Coppola and a bunch of other snobby directors and critics woulda thumbed their noses at. I don't care, tho. It doesn't take away my childhood memories of going to the movies with him one iota.

If Scorsese doesn't think they are cinema, he doesn't think they should be invading theaters either - I mean what's the difference between the two statements really? They are being harsh, but they are looking at it from the perspective of these movies being on the assembly line of studio formula and I still understand that point - but Dr. Narcisse summed it up better than I am so check his posts.

I will say Coppola is taking it to the next level with the hyperbole of calling them "despicable" lol. That's kinda ridiculous. I don't value Copolla's opinion as much as Scorsese's tho cuz he fell the fukk off after the 70's.

 

[Won Won]

If Coppola thinks the MCU is despicable then I’d love to hear his thoughts on the Bayformers franchise

 

[Saysumthinfunnymike]

@hex Where did either of them say anything about a father taking his kids to Endgame and the "bonding" experience? You reaching with that one.

They are talking about the movies themselves, the writing and the way they are constructed. A lot of comic book movies are constructed by committee and they aren't touching on themes in a way that anyone would describe as fruitful or deep or enlightening in any way.. A lot of it is CGI crashing into CGI like a Transformers movie and don't say it isn't because it is.

Yeah Coogler did a nice job and was able to sneak some things into Black Panther that sets it apart from a lot of comic book movies just like Phillips just did with Joker but you can't tell me most of these movies and their directors and writing teams aren't handcuffed artistically.

 

[SunZoo]

@hex Where did either of them say anything about a father taking his kids to Endgame and the "bonding" experience? You reaching with that one.

Scorsese made it a point in one of his diatribes to define cinema by the communal experience of how and where a film is viewed, in theaters with an audience. The issue is, most "narrative films" don't require a 20 foot screen or a bunch of fanfare to warrant how expensive it is to go to a movie 9 times outta 10 when they can catch it on Netflix.

They are talking about the movies themselves, the writing and the way they are constructed.

No they aren't.

Copolla was outright hating...and Scorsese would have actually had to watch them to get that deep into them, which he didn't.

He's had much more to say about his own film, why he couldn't get it made with a major studio and fighting back against the invasion of the two or 3 Marvel movies a year that somehow edge out every other type of film there is to be seen and bring crowds that don't have the 'communal experience' that HE wants them to have.

 

[obarth]

"Everybody knew he was talented… Certainly by studying the Iron Man role and developing that script I realized that the character seemed to line-up with Robert in all the good and bad ways. And the story of Iron Man was really the story of Robert’s career.” - Jon Favreau

Jon's casting of RDJ as Ironman was rejected several times because of his past. You have this character who is born into his fathers professional legacy, who is a destructive, self serving alcoholic with all the money he could ever really need and despite him having the genius and the resources to do the job, Nick Fury initially disqualifies him from the Avenger's initiative because of those qualities, RDJ is the embodiment of that.



The Ironman story and the RDJ story run side by side, which is why he's shook stepping away from it though he knows he needs to. Being Ironman did more for him than line his pockets and it obviously did more for the fans than just provide spectacle void of 'human emotion' or any kind of narrative.

Robert Downey Jr. Announces Footprint Coalition to Clean Up the World With Advanced Tech

Wait...is Stark's drunken party in Ironman 2 supposed to be a representation of the crippling alcoholism that has been a crucial part of the comic character's bio for ages now? They glossed over that, quick fast like Ramadan, in the movies. Matter of fact, Disney straight up told writers/directors to get rid of the plot point of Tony being an alcoholicStark was portrayed as a charismatic, playboy, billionaire. His faults in the MCU are nothing like his faults in real life. At worst, Tony Stark is portrayed as an egotistical a$$hole.

Tony Stark vows to have his company stop manufacturing weapons of war at the beginning of the second act of Ironman. Dude is already showing he's a good guy from the get go. There is no arc. Tony is a winner from the beginning to his self sacrificial end.

What's your favorite Robert Downey Sr. movie? Can you name a Robert Downey Sr. movie?But he was born into his father's legacy, right? Not to mention how tacked on Tony's daddy issues were, just to make Civil War's climax somewhat meaningful.

If they wanted to make Tony Stark's story even somewhat reminiscent of RDJr's they would have had to take some risks and go lengths that at this point we know Disney will not go. It's to their benefit since they're practically printing money with their formula