"Just learn to Code" they said... the TRUTH about Coding / Programming Jobs

goatmane

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You have to remember you are competing against individuals who not only went to a bootcamp or a compsci degree, but if you've ever gone through a stem program, you'll learn that a lot of these folks not only program to get a job. For a lot of them, it has been a life long passion and hobby and the Comp Sci degree is just a way to officially document their skills.

No matter what job you get but especially in this field, you need to show you have a passion for it so its not just about knowing a few languages or having a degree. Employers are looking for you to say what projects you've may have worked on outside of an educational environment and you're competing against a bunch of people who have that history and if all you can say is I know C, C++, Java, Python, etc but have no "accomplishments" to point to, you are at a disadvantage.

There is a lot of people who have shifted their attention to coding as the current "get rich quickly" path. People who think that simply learning a computer language means they will land a 100k job without putting forth any other effort beyond that are going to be sorely disappointed.

If you are pursuing a Comp Sci or Engineering degree, you MUST get an internship or co-op. If you don't have this history when you graduate, you will have a bad time.

the problem is, these folks that wanna "learn how to code" to get rich quick were the same people who said "fukk math' in high school.

guess what? you needed that groundwork, that understanding of logic. Ive tried to put many many brehs onto tech. You can guess the ones who took it and ran and the ones that quit after 2 weeks (of me personally tutoring them too, telling them to hmu for help etc)

there's folks with Math degrees that get jobs from Google because they can pick up CS so quick
 

the bossman

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I'm surprised. Network engineers are always in demand. Even with the shift to cloud and removing on-prem server stacks. Someone still has to set all of that up.
People forget you still need networking regardless if your shyt is on-prem or completely cloud or hybrid of the two(which is where most enterprises are going). You still need networking and segregation even in the cloud
 

KingDanz

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This story still makes me sad. I don't know if there is another industry that needs to address mental health more than this one. He must have burnt out completely.

An Uber engineer killed himself. His widow says the workplace is to blame.

636288138171502359-Z.jpeg

Joseph Thomas, left, with his family: Ezekiel, wife Zecole and Joseph.
Thomas Family
SAN FRANCISCO — Last April, Joseph Thomas, a 33-year-old self-taught African-American computer engineer, turned down a job at Apple in order to work for Uber. Five months later, he had killed himself, leaving a trail of questions about whether the company's fierce work culture was to blame.

Thomas had left his previous employer LinkedIn, lured by a great salary, Uber's reputation for smart engineers, and the potential for future wealth. The $170,000-a-year job already allowed for the purchase of a “dream house” for his childhood sweetheart and wife, Zecole, and the couple’s two young boys.

In August, Zecole found Thomas dead from a self-inflicted gunshot wound. The tragic outcome, first reported in the San Francisco Chronicle Tuesday, has led to a lawsuit: His widow contends Uber's intense work culture was at fault.

“Uber’s culture was different,” Zecole Thomas told USA TODAY. “Here was a man who was very good at what he did, who took care of his family. But within months, he started to tell me that he ruined our life. That he was broken.”

When her husband Joe started to grow despondent, Zecole joined him in a visit to a therapist. Leaving Uber was suggested, but Thomas replied, “’I cannot do it, I cannot think,’ she says. “Joe was shutting down.”


That beaten-down feeling has echoes in the February blog post of ex-Uber engineer Susan Fowler, whose detailed account of her year at the company described the ride-hailing start-up run by CEO Travis Kalanick as a toxic and sexist workplace.

Fowler's claims, compounded by a video of Kalanick berating a driver and reports of questionable business practices designed to deceive regulators, rivals and drivers, have plunged Uber into a full-blown leadership crisis. Kalanick is now searching for a chief operating officer, and the company says that next month it will release the results of an internal investigation led by former U.S. attorney general Eric Holder.

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Onetime Uber engineer Joseph Thomas, shown on vacation with his family, including wife Zecole and sons Ezekiel (left) and Joseph.
Thomas Family
In a statement, Uber said, “no family should go through the unspeakable heartbreak the Thomas family has experienced.” It has referred the matter over whether Thomas had filed any complaints to Uber human resources to Holder and his team.

Zecole Thomas says she is suing in part because she wants courts to grant an exception to her husband’s case that would allow her family access to $720,000 in total workman’s compensation that would have automatically been granted had Thomas been in his job six months.

But she also hopes her suit will call attention to “the fact that engineers and IT workers deserve a better work-life balance,” she says.

“The way many of these companies work is they want you to love your job more than your families, with breakfast, lunch and dinner and places to sleep at work,” Thomas says. “But people in IT want to have families, too.”

More specifically, Thomas describes a working environment at Uber that was drastically different from her husband’s previous job at professional networking site LinkedIn, where she and her boys would visit him for lunch a few times a week.

“At Uber, when I asked to do that, Joe said, ‘No, don’t come, it’s not that kind of environment,” she says. What’s more, she says her husband felt his engineering skills were constantly called into question by superiors to the point where his self-esteem cratered.

“He would say, ‘I feel stupid, they’re all laughing at me,’ and yet this was a guy who was as hardworking, driven and focused as there ever was,” she says. “He only had one year of college, but if there was a coding language he didn’t know, he’d study hard and three months later get certificates saying he knew them. It’s all very heartbreaking.”

Richard Richardson, whose employment-law firm Siegal and Richardson represents the family, says it has been a battle to get Uber to turn over documents that would help his firm establish the special circumstances necessary for workman’s compensation to kick in.

Richardson’s firm has been trying to get information about Thomas’ terms of employment (which include a typical non-disclosure agreement that limited what he could say to others about his job), work hours and offer package. Uber refused to allow Richardson to depose Thomas’ supervisor, but a judge has mandated that to go forward.

“Anything we have gotten from Uber has been so heavily redacted (edited), we could barely make out the basic information,” says Richardson. “There may be an expression of public sympathy in the media, but there’s a big gap in turns of how the information has been turned over to us.”

636071456498646429-kala.jpeg

Travis Kalanick, CEO of Uber, recently spoke to USA TODAY about the company's new efforts to develop a self-driving ride-hailing vehicle with the help of Swedish automaker Volvo.
Marco della Cava, USA TODAY
Asked if racism played a role in Thomas’ employment experience at Uber, Richardson says he’s not certain.

“But this is a man who didn’t have a history of crumbling under stress,” he says. “I believe there was a cutthroat environment (at Uber) that had tones of racism in it, in that one big indicator of success is mentorship and leadership. But there is no real black leadership at Uber to help a young African-American employee. I don’t think Uber cares about things like that.”
 
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the problem is, these folks that wanna "learn how to code" to get rich quick were the same people who said "fukk math' in high school.

guess what? you needed that groundwork, that understanding of logic. Ive tried to put many many brehs onto tech. You can guess the ones who took it and ran and the ones that quit after 2 weeks (of me personally tutoring them too, telling them to hmu for help etc)

there's folks with Math degrees that get jobs from Google because they can pick up CS so quick

Maybe them nikkaz was just lazy, coding is something you has an individual want to do and you pursue it yourself, you can train yourself online because like you said its all based on logically being able to solve a problem

most coders get hired just do the grunt work for the seniors but also it's not a job everyone can do, if you can't handle stress or having to think on your feet, you can't do it, most of the time you have no idea how to solve the problem and have to figure it out

I couldn't do it for a living, its probably better for the work from home situations but its been times when google ain't let muthafukkaz go home until the fixed the problem
 

Serious

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imagine this clown interviewing you



:francis:

It's too easy to destroy this guys "logic".

He tried to brush off systemic issues, as if the injustices were minor, while continuing to ranting about UberEats giving a discount fee. First of all, fukk ubereats and fukk uber. I don't give a damn about a fee. Uber doing that is a drop in the bucket to addressing issues of inequity. Secondly, Ubereats giving black businesses free delivery is just bad pr, because Uber has no idea how to "support" blacklivesmatter, but instead they're this politicized movement as a way to continually capture marketshare.
 

LV Koopa

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Fixed. Everyone uses resources like these, even the most tenured person on your team is not against going to stackoverlow

I remember when Stackoverflow first started. It was part of Stack Exchange and I used to read the guy who created it, Joel Spolsky's, software development blog in college. His ideas on management stuck with me forever and he really showed programming is not that complicated.
No surprise Stackoverflow became the place to learn anything you had a question for.
 

momma

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They don't tell you that you'll MUST know and learn 3-4 different languages, 3-4 different frameworks, multiple libraries, and have 5-8 years experience in each of these.

They won't tell you that most of these Web Developer jobs are looking for "Full Stack Developers" meaning a jack of all trades. But what life will teach you is that a "jack of all trades" is a master of none. You won't be able to just be great at one language when you have to continuously spread your focus to many other languages and their frameworks.

Don't let these coding bootcamps and certificate courses fool you. The barrier to getting an actual coding job is higher than anything I've seen. Crazier than some healthcare jobs. Having a decent portfolio and the ability to make some websites/web apps simply isn't enough. They won't tell you that the tech industry requires CONSTANT learning of new languages, frameworks and technologies and that the stuff you're learning now will probably get old by the time you're able to master it (if you ever master anything).

Unlike being an electrician, technician or plumber where once you know the job, you know it. Programming/Development jobs will always have you constantly having to stay up to date, constantly feeling inadequate with new tech/software/programs, getting paid salary but putting in 60 hours or more a week (for projects that might eventually get dropped), the job WILL be your life so forget about hobbies and socializing.... Who honestly wants to live like that? The average person decided to code because they heard of the demand and the salary ranges. Most people with a "passion" for coding are the ones that have been at it since they were kids. There's a reason why there aren't many people in their 40's, 50's coding and why it's a constant revolving door of 20-30 something year olds. And I can talk about the lack of black people, but that's a whole new discussion. If anything brehs have a better chance of going into networking and cybersecurity.

I'm a software dev at a major bank and I think you're both right and wrong about certain things. The track isn't the same for every job and person - a software engineer level 1 or 2 requires significantly more experience and qualifications than a junior / entry level role, and without at least 2 years of work experience, the road becomes tough to land anything more than a junior role. Double that if you're job searching in a major tech city like SF or NYC. But that's not exactly a high barrier, it's just the requirements of the job. You can work on all these bootcamps, side projects, and courses you need to but it doesn't equate to real working experience as part of a team and organization. So you don't necessarily need to have extensive experience with a dozen worth of technologies, but you do need to demonstrate that you either possess the ability to learn and passion for the work if you want to land something junior, or that you have the relevant field experience to be a dependable employee. Having a lot of diversity on your resume isn't specific to demonstrating those advantages.

You are correct though in saying it's hard to gain expertise in the field. I have experience with a lot of languages, frameworks, etc. but I'm by no means an expert who can answer any and every question. However, gaining expertise also isn't expected for entry-level engineers, as being able to wear many hats is valued more. You should be very adept at a specific area if you're mid-level and especially senior-level, however.

You're also correct in saying the field constantly requires you to be learning, but again that's not a barrier, it's a part of the job description. The tech field changes extremely fast, codebases can become dated in a matter of a year, and roles change as companies and business requirements evolve. This also doesn't mean you have no free time and that you need to put in 60 hours. If you work in a big company, you're allotted time to learn new stuff on the clock and any company with a good culture encourages its employees to always be learning. Startups are a different story because you're either hired for your expertise in a specific area or you're thrown into the water to learn how to swim. At the end of the day though, you can't get into the field if you don't enjoy coding and learning new things.

One thing you should also note is that the field skews towards upper income backgrounds. The easiest path to getting a job is to be recruited out of college and/or get interviews through connections, and the top companies only recruit out of the highly ranked, and in parallel the most expensive and white, universities. And getting connections is tougher if you're not in a major tech hub city.

You also didn't mention the interview process, which is a very counterintuitive and stressful process of whiteboard coding and multiple rounds of screening that would turn off even dedicated and talented developers.
 
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JLova

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Almost all of what you're saying is True

however, you say this like it's really hard. Once you know how to code any high level language, you can learn the others very easily. Its usually engine difference and syntax that you'll need to remember.

And frameworks, libraries, backends, connectors. You'll pick this up easily. At 100k, you're not really expected to be that good. Its not entry level, but its not senior level either. Its like.. year 2 or 3. Where i work, a full stack dev isnt making only 100k unless they were a college intern turned employee.

Alot what you said is true, i just dont think its as scary as you're making it out to be

This. Learn Java and you will easily be able to learn other languages. The only difficulty is mastering that one language and companies hire people based off of that. I'm not a developer but have a decent grasp of programming languages.

I'd say if you want to be a developer, you can learn it through bootcamps or self-study but you have to do be coding every day. You also have to have projects, examples of shyt you coded.

Now there are non-developer jobs out there that require you to at least understand code and those jobs pay quite well. So yea you may not get a developer role, you can get many other roles...application support, Application engineer, etc... Need to know code but won't be expected to write it from scratch.

So I agree and disagree with OP. Still the easiest way to a coding job is a computer science degree. There are other ways but this will get your foot in the door and tell companies that you at least have the ability to learn other languages.

You're not going to earn 100K off the bat without a compsci degree so I don't know who thins they can attend a bootcamp and land that kind of job. Anyone believing that is foolish.

The key will always be experience. What you learn in a classroom can't teach hat you learn on the job with deadlines and the fire at your feet.
 
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GreenGhxst

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A thread focused on dissuading brehs from building a career in one of the hottest lucrative in demand fields because it could be hard?

You see it all on thecoli unfortunately :francis:

Don't do this yall. It's too hard. Can you imagine they offer 100k+ salaries and actually expect you to know some shyt!?

Just stick to fixing pipes and toilets black folk:mjpls:

Exactly, I'm 27 hours from finishing

I didnt waste all these years for nothing

:hhh:
 

Carlton Banks

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This story still makes me sad. I don't know if there is another industry that needs to address mental health more than this one. He must have burnt out completely.

An Uber engineer killed himself. His widow says the workplace is to blame.

I can't get jiggy with this at all... a breh killed himself cuz of his job like he one of these wall street cacs when the market crashes? Nah... you got kids and a wife and a high demand skill in America? You just gotta figure it out...
 

KingDanz

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I can't get jiggy with this at all... a breh killed himself cuz of his job like he one of these wall street cacs when the market crashes? Nah... you got kids and a wife and a high demand skill in America? You just gotta figure it out...
i know, he probably had a mental breakdown. This deadline driven development and imposter syndrome is prevelant in IT, can lead to depression, anxiety etc. Sad story.. :mjcry: I wonder why he just didn't quit..
 
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