Japanese Researcher Wants America To “Apologize” For Bombing Them

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You can quote all the “leaders” you want. George Patton wanted to invade the USSR. MacArthur wanted to nuke China. They are grunts whose job it is to obey their commander and chief who has far more intelligence available to him.

This is where you cross over from just looking ignorant to being an outright liar.

I quoted the LITERAL PEOPLE WHO PREPARED THE INTELLIGENCE REPORTS. Claiming that Truman knew more about Japanese capabilities than the Joints Chiefs of Staff or deputy directors of intelligence is total bullshyt. Until he became president, Truman was so out of the loop that FDR hadn't even told him the Manhattan Project existed, yet he made the decision to drop the bomb within days of even learning about it.....while FDR, who had know about the project the entire time, had NEVER chosen to prepare to drop it on Japan.

“It wasn’t seen as this big deliberation, this big debate. That’s a later framing of it that was put on in order to justify having used the bombs.”

"For example, Wellerstein said, not much deliberation went into using the bomb. Other historians hold the same view, including Carr."


Oh, shyt, is that the historian you just quoted? You're trying to claim that Truman made the decision based on some sort of careful deliberation from considering all available intelligence, and your OWN HISTORIAN admits he just kinda did it without thinking about it too much.





The fact you call an historian “no name” shows how much you know about the subject of history and how information is researched.

You tried to use a false Argument from Authority, quoting the opinion of a single right-wing historian who provided zero evidence for his claims in order to discount the opinions of 23 military, intelligence, and political leaders who actually fought the war. You also ignored the opinions of numerous more highly regarded historians who have come to the opposite conclusion of the one you posted. If you're going to just quote people's unsourced opinions and present them as the final word, then expect the creds of your sources to get questioned.




The historical evidence based of peer reviewed study by historians and information unavailable to anyone but the upper echelons of US, Soviet and Japanese military command points to the Japanese not being willing to surrender on terms sufficient for their genocidal crimes and the fact the Soviets were lying to them the whole time and never intending to negotiate a surrender less than the terms agreed upon by the allies

What are you basing that complete bullshyt on? You're seriously trying to claim that the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, the Director of Naval Intelligence, the Supreme Allied Commanders, and the Brigadier General who was literally preparing the intercepted Japanese cables for MacArthur himself knew less about Japanese tendencies in the war than Vice-President Truman, who was almost completely cut off from serious classified war information until FDR died in the middle of April 1945?

This has happened in every one of our historical discussions. You literally make shyt up. Your OWN HISTORIAN SOURCE said that Truman made the decision flippantly, it didn't have jack shyt to do with a bunch of super duper top secret intelligence that only he had access to.


"Careful scholarly treatment of the records and manuscripts opened over the past few years has greatly enhanced our understanding of why the Truman administration used atomic weapons against Japan. The consensus among scholars is that the bomb was not needed to avoid an invasion of Japan and to end the war within a relatively short time. It is clear that alternatives to the bomb existed and that Truman and his advisers knew it.... The hoary claim that the bomb prevented 500,000 American combat deaths is unsupportable."

- J. Samuel Walker, chief historian of the United States Nuclear Regulatory Commission




Why do you keep ignoring that quote and pretending, without any evidence, that the complete opposite was true?
 

Professor Emeritus

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Here another historians take on things

Did the Japanese offer to surrender before Hiroshima? (Part 1)​

by Alex Wellerstein, published May 2nd, 2022
This is part one of a series of two posts on this topic.
Click here for part two.

One of the most common invocations made in the service of “the atomic bombs weren’t necessary” argument is that the Japanese offered to surrender well before Hiroshima, and that this was ignored by the United States because they wanted to drop the bombs anyway (for various other asserted reasons). It’s one of those things that has a grain of truth to it, but without a heaping of context and interpretation is misleading by itself.


The Suzuki Cabinet, who held the fate of Japan in their hands in the summer of 1945. Photograph is from June 9, 1945. Prime Minister Kantaro Suzuki is front and center. Of note, second to Suzuki’s left, looking downward and glum, is Navy Minister Mitsumasa Yonai, one of the only members of the “peace party” actually on the cabinet. Contrast his expression with that of War Minister Korechika Anami (back row, two behind Yonai), who was, until very close to the end, one of the most die-hard supporters of a continued war. Photograph from Wikimedia Commons, somewhat touched up. A captioned overlay is here.
That there were “peace feelers” put out by some highly-placed Japanese in mid-1945 is well-known and well-documented. Specifically, there were several attempts to see whether the (then still-neutral) Soviet Union would be willing to serve as a mediator for a negotiated peace between the US and Japan. This story is the heart of Tsuyoshi Hasegawa’s justly influential Racing the Enemy: Stalin, Truman, and the Surrender of Japan (2005), and he goes over, in great detail, how these approaches worked (one in Japan, with the Soviet ambassador there, another in Moscow, with the Japanese ambassador there). Hasegawa’s argument isn’t about Japan being ready to surrender, though; he uses this account to show how dependent Japan’s ideas about the war’s possible ends were on a neutral Soviet Union. 1
The distance between these “peace feelers” and an “offer” or even “readiness” to surrender is quite large. Japan was being governed at this point by a Supreme War Council, which was dominated by militarists who had no interest in peace. The “peace party” behind these feelers was a small minority of officials who were keeping their efforts secret from the rest of the Council, because they clearly feared they would be squashed otherwise. The “peace party” did appear to have the interest — and sometimes even the favor — of the Emperor, which is important and interesting, though the Emperor, as Hasegawa outlines in detail, was not as powerful as is sometimes assumed. The overall feeling that one takes away from Hasegawa’s book is that all of these “feelers” were very much “off the books,” as in they were exploratory gestures made by a group that was waiting for an opportunity that might tilt the balance of power their way, and certainly not some kind of formal, official, or binding plan made by the Japanese government.
Furthermore, the surrender that the “peace party” was contemplating was still miles away from the “unconditional surrender” demanded by the United States. There were conditions involved: mainly the preservation of the status and safety of the Emperor and the Imperial House, which they regarded as identical to the preservation of the Japanese nation. But as Hasegawa points out, they were so unclear on what they were looking for, that there was contemplation of other things they might ask for as well, liking getting to keep some of their conquered territories. Again, this was not a real plan so much as the feelers necessary for forming a possible future plan, and so we should not be surprised that it was pretty vague.


One can argue, and people who argue against the necessity of the bombings do, that since the United States ultimately agreed to preserve the Emperor and Imperial House, that the US could have accepted such a condition earlier on if it had wanted to shorten the war. But this is not very compelling: it is a different thing to decide, after a war, that you are willing to cut your former enemy a break, versus cutting them that break while they are still your sworn enemy. The counter-argument, which even as someone who is not a die-hard “unconditional surrender was necessary” person I find somewhat compelling, is that if the US had modified its already-stated demands at that point, that it might have ultimately led to the Japanese making more demands, as part of the classic “give them an inch and they’ll ask for a foot” scenario. In any event, I doubt the Japanese would have been willing to accept the specific condition that the US ultimately ended up imposing during the occupation: that the Emperor had to publicly renounce his divinity. That’s a big “ask” to contemplate prior to surrender.
Anyway, whatever one thinks about the requirement of unconditional surrender and whether it prolonged the war — and it has been argued over since the 1940s — we can all agree, I think, that what the Japanese were unofficially “offering” was not what the US was demanding. And it is important to note that this was never actually offered to the US anyway: the Japanese were probing Soviet willingness to support them as a neutral party for a negotiated peace. So it was all a prelude to a negotiation of an offer. As it was, the Soviets weren’t interested (they were eager to declare war against Japan and seize promised territory as a consequence), and just strung them along. So the entire thing never got off the ground.


The US was aware of these efforts by the Japanese, because it had cracked the Japanese diplomatic codes (the MAGIC intercepts), but it was never a formal “offer” for them to accept or reject. The general interpretation of the intercepts at the time was that Japan might be on the road to surrender, and they perceived there was a sympathetic “peace party” in their high command, but that Japan was ultimately not yet ready to accept unconditional surrender. Which I don’t think is really wrong, though of course one could debate about what one could do with that information.




Again you are wrong and your revisionist history is nothing in the face of modern academic scrutiny and above all just basic common sense.


Every actual statement about history he makes in that essay agrees with what I said and your reading comprehension is so poor you didn't realize it. :russ:

Breh, did you even read what he wrote? Have you read what I've written? He tosses out a couple personal opinions that differ from mine, but in terms of the historical details, we wrote the SAME shyt.

No wonder you copy-paste so much, actually reading must be hard.
 

Mister Terrific

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How am I the one "out of my depth", when you've repeatedly shown that you don't even know the basic details and resort to copy-pasting the opinions of obscure historians who don't even have wiki entries instead of dealing with the actual arguments?
“Obscure historians”

You are a joke. :mjlol: If you have an issue with what an historian says, post sources disputing it. I have posted official communications between Japanese high command and diplomatic timeline of events that are apart of the historical record.

You have posted nothing to dispute any of it because you can’t and you know if you did attempt to produce anything of substance I would destroy you.


The fact you tried to insinuate fukking Joe Stalin was going to organize a negotiated peace with Japan is hilarious btw. You definitely would’ve been sent to a gulag.


Liar. I didn't say the US didn't enter until 1941, I said its response was relatively weak and inconsequential before then.
Forming an international coalition of major powers to economically isolate Japan is inconsequential. Roosevelt even sent 100 P-40’s to China in 1940.

You have no idea what you are talking about. Again the U.S. was an isolationist democracy in 1940. Roosevelt couldn’t unilaterally declare war.


YOU tried to use the 1941 oil embargo to argue that the USA's response to the 1937 invasion and massacre wasn't weak, while ignoring that the embargo wasn't started until FOUR YEARS LATER.
No that is just a gotcha because you have no argument otherwise because you have a child’s intellect and an inability to understand complicated geopolitical timelines.


The complete economic isolation of the oil embargo and freezing of assets was the final straw of Japanese military aggression in Asia.

But please detail how the U.S. was militarily interested in French indochina in 1940. :laff:


You are literally arguing against your own strawman.



Let’s make it simple for you


1. The U.S. had been gradually upping the diplomatic and economic pressure on Japan since the Nanking massacre

2. The U.S. issued several economic sanctions on Japan from 1938-1941

3. The U.S. formed an international coalition to economically isolate Japan in response to Japanese aggression the mainland

4. The US had been supplying China with military aid during the Sino-Japanese war.

5. In response to the Japanese invasion of indochina the U.S. destroyed economic relations with Japan as a final straw and demanded the Japanese withdraw from China.




Obviously the USA saw danger to their interest in that (anyone with half a clue could tell that Japanese expansion in China was threatening British territory in China and Burma, French territory in Indochina, and American territory in the Philippines), but they didn't actually move with any consequential response until Japan directly threatened those interests.
You’re just throwing shyt at the wall aren’t ya buddy. Like a toddler flailing around. It’s sad

Point how Japanese conquest of Vietnam threatens the Philippines?

images




Btw explain how the U.S. was seeking to impose its interests on Japan by willingly curtailing its massive advantage in Naval industrial advantage?

images



Again you are ignoring this fact because you bc any dispute it. The U.S. wouldn’t have entered in unfavorable terms in with Japan if it was seeking to dominate Asia.
 

WaveCapsByOscorp™

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Didn’t they have some sort of atonement ceremony when Obama was president? I feel like that’s when the US officially apologized.

As far as some random tweet, yeah sure that’ll get these lazy mfers to mobilize

:mjlol:
 

Mister Terrific

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This is where you cross over from just looking ignorant to being an outright liar.

I quoted the LITERAL PEOPLE WHO PREPARED THE INTELLIGENCE REPORTS.

Post these intelligence reports showing Japans willingness to surrender and the Soviet Unions willingness to act as an intermediary.

I want first hand quotes and communications between Japans high command, what was said and what exactly the words specifically used to convince you Japan was willing to surrender ASAP to the allies.


Please include what conditions the Japanese were willing to surrender under as well. Thank you.


Also please make these official Japanese diplomatic peace requests as well. No maybe I heard this or that. Concrete diplomatic correspondence please


Claiming that Truman knew more about Japanese capabilities than the Joints Chiefs of Staff or deputy directors of intelligence is total bullshyt.

The Interim Committee was a secret high-level group created in May 1945 by United States Secretary of War, Henry L. Stimson at the urging of leaders of the Manhattan Project and with the approval of President Harry S. Truman to advise on matters pertaining to nuclear energy. Composed of prominent political, scientific and industrial figures, the Interim Committee had broad terms of reference which included advising the President on wartime controls and the release of information, and making recommendations on post-war controls and policies related to nuclear energy, including legislation. Its first duty was to advise on the manner in which nuclear weapons should be employed against Japan. Later, it advised on legislation for the control and regulation of nuclear energy. It was named "Interim" in anticipation of a permanent body that would later replace it after the war, where the development of nuclear technology would be placed firmly under civilian control. The Atomic Energy Commission was enacted in 1946 to serve this function.


The most immediate of the committee's tasks, one that has been the focus of much subsequent controversy, was to make recommendations concerning the use of the atomic bomb against Japan. The committee's consensus, arrived at in a meeting held June 1, 1945, is described as follows in the meeting's log:[2]

Mr. Byrnes recommended, and the Committee agreed, that the Secretary of War should be advised that, while recognizing that the final selection of the target was essentially a military decision, the present view of the Committee was that the bomb should be used against Japan as soon as possible; that it be used on a war plant surrounded by workers’ homes; and that it be used without prior warning.
One member, Bard, later dissented from this decision and in a memorandum to Stimson laid out a case for a warning to Japan before using the bomb.[3]

In arriving at its conclusion, the committee was advised by a Scientific Panel of four physicists from the Manhattan Project: Enrico Fermi and Arthur H. Compton of the Metallurgical Laboratory at the University of Chicago; Ernest O. Lawrence of the Radiation Laboratory at the University of California at Berkeley; and J. Robert Oppenheimer, who directed the bomb assembly program at Los Alamos. Reinforcing the decision arrived at on June 1, the scientists wrote in a formal report on June 16:[4]

The opinions of our scientific colleagues on the initial use of these weapons are not unanimous: they range from the proposal of a purely technical demonstration to that of the military application best designed to induce surrender. Those who advocate a purely technical demonstration would wish to outlaw the use of atomic weapons, and have feared that if we use the weapons now our position in future negotiations will be prejudiced. Others emphasize the opportunity of saving American lives by immediate military use, and believe that such use will improve the international prospects, in that they are more concerned with the prevention of war than with the elimination of this specific weapon. We find ourselves closer to these latter views; we can propose no technical demonstration likely to bring an end to the war; we see no acceptable alternative to direct military use.
Although the committee's recommendation was addressed to Stimson, Byrnes went directly from the June 1 meeting to brief Truman, who reportedly concurred with the committee's opinion.[5]Reviewing the Scientific Panel's report on June 21, the committee reaffirmed its position:[6]






So Truman put together a war cabinet to ascertain whether the bombs should be used and the decisions was unanimous.
"Careful scholarly treatment of the records and manuscripts opened over the past few years has greatly enhanced our understanding of why the Truman administration used atomic weapons against Japan. The consensus among scholars is that the bomb was not needed to avoid an invasion of Japan and to end the war within a relatively short time. It is clear that alternatives to the bomb existed and that Truman and his advisers knew it.... The hoary claim that the bomb prevented 500,000 American combat deaths is unsupportable."

- J. Samuel Walker, chief historian of the United States Nuclear Regulatory Commission
I have never once claimed that invasion of Japan was necessary as we were completely blockading the island and mass starvation was inevitable.

The operation was literally called Operation Starvation

Regardless of losses, the Japanese tried to push their ships through; shortages of food, coal, and other materials lent such actions the tinge of desperation. Antiaircraft units moved to protect harbors against mine-dropping B-29s—the Japanese considered harbor protection “more important than the actual protection of cities, because the life lines from the continent which furnished food and supplies were of first priority.” Three B-29s were shot down, but still the mines came, and 66 ships hit them in Shimonoseki Straits alone. Shortages of coal, oil, salt, and food had almost wiped out what Japanese industry survived the bombing raids. Japan’s leading industrialists could see the end coming. They warned military leaders, shortly before Hiroshima—if the war went on another year, 7,000,000 Japanese would die of starvation.




This is what the U.S. navy was going to do.
 

horizon

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The nuclear bombings were absolutely fukked and would be considered war crimes today
 

Mister Terrific

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@Professor Emeritus

I have said is hundreds of thousands of Asian civilians and allied PoWs were dying in Japanese death camps, rape camps and behind Japanese lines. Are you going to dispute this?


Apparently we aren’t supposed to care about the thousands of Asian civilians dying weekly in 1945 according to you?


Here are several massacres of hundreds of thousands to millions of people that occurred in 1945 when you claim Japan was going to surrender








Please describe to the class how long we were supposed to wait for Japan to come to terms with its defeat while people were still actively dying under their rule in droves?

2-3 weeks? A month? A year? How many raped Korean and Chinese women? How many more cannibalized or burned alive American, British and Australian pows?

Dispose of Them’: Massacre of American POWs in the Philippines​

As the Allied liberation of the Philippines was underway, Japanese commanders acted on orders to annihilate American POWs rather than allow them to assist enemy efforts, and in December 1944 cruelly executed 139 American POWs on Palawan.


 

Mister Terrific

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Every actual statement about history he makes in that essay agrees with what I said and your reading comprehension is so poor you didn't realize it. :russ:

Breh, did you even read what he wrote? Have you read what I've written? He tosses out a couple personal opinions that differ from mine, but in terms of the historical details, we wrote the SAME shyt.

No wonder you copy-paste so much, actually reading must be hard.
What the fukk are you talking about?


The distance between these “peace feelers” and an “offer” or even “readiness” to surrender is quite large. Japan was being governed at this point by a Supreme War Council, which was dominated by militarists who had no interest in peace. The “peace party” behind these feelers was a small minority of officials who were keeping their efforts secret from the rest of the Council, because they clearly feared they would be squashed otherwise. The “peace party” did appear to have the interest — and sometimes even the favor — of the Emperor, which is important and interesting, though the Emperor, as Hasegawa outlines in detail, was not as powerful as is sometimes assumed. The overall feeling that one takes away from Hasegawa’s book is that all of these “feelers” were very much “off the books,” as in they were exploratory gestures made by a group that was waiting for an opportunity that might tilt the balance of power their way, and certainly not some kind of formal, official, or binding plan made by the Japanese government.
Furthermore, the surrender that the “peace party” was contemplating was still miles away from the “unconditional surrender” demanded by the United States. There were conditions involved: mainly the preservation of the status and safety of the Emperor and the Imperial House, which they regarded as identical to the preservation of the Japanese nation. But as Hasegawa points out, they were so unclear on what they were looking for, that there was contemplation of other things they might ask for as well, liking getting to keep some of their conquered territories. Again, this was not a real plan so much as the feelers necessary for forming a possible future plan, and so we should not be surprised that it was pretty vague.



Your entire argument is Japanese ready to surrender and this debunks all of that.

Da fukk :dead:


Btw this is literally Japanese corporate structure to this day. Any person with actual knowledge of Japanese society and culture would not be surprised at them being unable to come to a decision regarding when they are going to have a meeting to even possible discuss surrender at a latter date…..probably. :mjlol:



Actually read what the fukk I’m putting down and you might actually be able to formulate and understanding of the war.
 

DonB90

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Cheng Benhua freedom fighter moments before the Japs smiling in the back executed her with bayonets after raping and toturing her for days.



If you know anything about history the Japs kind of derserved it. Mass rape, mass genocide, Frankenstein like surgical experiments on captives, death marches, lying to their own populace to commit suicide. Yeah they earned that.

Thought they would have and all out bonsai attack when US troops invaded the mainland. USA hit em with the reverse uno something awful. :umad:
 
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