Jamaican dancehall culture IS what American hip-hop culture wants to be...

WaveGang

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Rap battling was definitely taken from Jamaica. As far as Hip Hop itself, it's clear elements were taken and adopted in either direction.

People start jumping on this high horse tip talking about "they tryna take credit" chill mannn, white man run that anyway.
 

Art Barr

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Glad someone figured it out, besides me.
saying this online and being a real true thing since rhe new school way of thought.
that is exactly what mainstream rap is supposed to be.
which is why every rapper is a dreaded vybz kartel ripoff auto tune guy in America making trap music/atmospheric.
except they ruined the cultural wing aspect to rap.
That reggae music has with roots reggae.
if rap respected the culture.
to have mainstream put in its proper context as danceha
plus, never supercede roots reggae cultural artist like rap should be.
Rap would be perfectly fine and the culture of hiphop would be vibrant.
the issue is the people who control: UNIVERSAL /ISLAND/ DEFJAM

that is why this was never established.
plus, why the business has faltered quality wise as well.


Art Barr

threadstarter using the mind's eye on thecoli.com

:salute:
 

010101

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whatever the case was
right now dancehall artist follow the lead of the yankees
from the lingo and certain sound elements to the style of dress

i will say that they do have the potential to do something amazing
talk about flows and melodies dancehall deejays/sinjays whatever you want to call them have crazy variation and range of creativity when it comes to their vocals

some of that shyt sounds like heavily accented verses from nikkas like thugger fewcha rich homie
zuse ain't the illest but he's the beta testing version of what dancehall could start to look like as the sounds become more polished and internationally influenced

2¢*
 

IllmaticDelta

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Rap battling was definitely taken from Jamaica.

:stopitslime:


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The Dozens: A History of Rap's Mama

Following his groundbreaking explorations of the blues and American popular music in Escaping the Delta and How the Beatles Destroyed Rock 'n' Roll, Elijah Wald turns his attention to the tradition of African American street rhyming and verbal combat that ruled urban neighborhoods long before rap: the viciously funny, outrageously inventive insult game called "the dozens." At its simplest, the dozens is a comic concatenation of "yo' mama" jokes. At its most complex, it is a form of social interaction that reaches back to African ceremonial rituals. Whether considered vernacular poetry, verbal dueling, a test of street cool, or just a mess of dirty insults, the dozens has been a basic building block of African-American culture. A game which could inspire raucous laughter or escalate to violence, it provided a wellspring of rhymes, attitude, and raw humor that has influenced pop musicians from Jelly Roll Morton to Ice Cube. Wald explores the depth of the dozens' roots, looking at mother-insulting and verbal combat from Greenland to the sources of the Niger, and shows its breadth of influence in the seminal writings of Richard Wright, Langston Hughes, and Zora Neale Hurston; the comedy of Richard Pryor and George Carlin; the dark humor of the blues; the hip slang and competitive jamming of jazz; and most recently in the improvisatory battling of rap. A forbidden language beneath the surface of American popular culture, the dozens links children's clapping rhymes to low-down juke joints and the most modern street verse to the earliest African American folklore. In tracing the form and its variations over more than a century of African American culture and music, The Dozens sheds fascinating new light on schoolyard games and rural work songs, serious literature and nightclub comedy, and pop hits from ragtime to rap



The dozens as American art form: No, your mama!


You can’t understand hip-hop without understanding the insult-battle tradition, says Elijah Wald



In 1939, a Yale psychologist named John Dollard traveled to the Jim Crow South to study the personality development of black children. Over and over again, he found something he hadn’t been looking for. On street corners and in schoolyards, in big cities and small towns, among the young and old alike, he found black folks facing off in games of street banter that followed specific rules: two players, fueled by the reaction of a gathered crowd, insulting each other in rhyme. The more ingenious the insult, the better.

What Dollard had stumbled on—and breathlessly described in a psychoanalytic journal—was a tradition that influenced Langston Hughes in the 1920s, made Richard Pryor a legend in the 1970s, and continues to fuel rap beefs today: the dozens.

“The Dozens is a pattern of interactive insult which is used among some American Negroes,” Dollard reported, in the first known article written about the street-rhyme combat typically touched off by two little words: yo’ mama. “The jests fly—about infidelity, though each seems a faithful husband—about impotence, though both are apparently adequately married and have children—about homosexual tendencies, although neither exhibits such to public perception.” Not to mention mothers, sisters, and girlfriends being stupid, raunchy, or just plain old ugly.

In “The Dozens: A History of Rap’s Mama,” writer, musician, and blues scholar Elijah Wald traces the comic and profane arc of the dozens clear through African-American culture—through rural works songs and the competitive jamming of jazz masters, through Mississippi barrelhouse songs and the iconic literature of the Harlem Renaissance. “No one has attempted a serious historical insult mapping of the United States,” Wald cautions in his book, and yet “The Dozens” ambitiously charts such a geography, outlining a heritage of verbal smack-downs from West African insult games to “Welcome Back, Kotter,” from jump-rope rhymes to rapper Grandmaster Flash to YouTube. Along the way, Wald’s underlying argument emerges with its own distinct challenge: It’s precisely the raw, filthy, unprintable essence of the dozens that makes it so important to preserve.

“It’s a lot more interesting than just a bunch of dirty jokes,” Wald said in an interview. “There’s a rich and complex history around it that tells a story about who we are. Not talking about this stuff just means not knowing how our culture happened.”

Wald spoke to Ideas from his home in Medford.

IDEAS: So, how does a middle-aged white guy find himself writing a book about the dozens?

The dozens is ‘about saying something not only nasty enough so that the other guy can’t think what to say, but also funny enough that the audience thinks that you’ve just done something smart.’

icon-promo-quote-red.gif

WALD: A few years ago it struck me that rap had opened up the possibility of doing a completely different history of African-American music. Because the way we’ve written the history of African-American music was, first of all, the roots of jazz. And then we wrote it as the roots of rock. And what that left out was all of the recitations that didn’t have melody, which was a huge tradition in African-American arts....And so I said, wait a minute: I’m supposed to be a historian of popular music. Let’s go back and see where this came from.

IDEAS: In your book, you make the case that the dozens can be traced back to African oral traditions.

WALD: That wasn’t something I was sure I believed when I started, because there’s this tendency to try to trace everything back to Africa. And as a historian, I’m always nervous about that stuff because I always think myths that make people feel good get encouraged, and sometimes they’re just there to make people feel good. But the more I looked at African stuff it was everywhere.

IDEAS: What were you finding?

WALD: It’s very deep in ceremonies. So that for example, you find circumcision ceremonies where part of the ritual songs that boys sing following the ceremony have lines [insulting] your mother, which I found partly interesting because sociologists have often suggested that the dozens is sort of an adolescent ritual whereby boys cut themselves off from their mothers and become part of the gang....There’s also the fact that versions of this are everywhere in the [black] diaspora in the Americas, no matter what language you’re in.

IDEAS: You call the dozens a basic building block of African-American culture. How widespread was its influence?

WALD: You find it everywhere. It’s in black comedy—Richard Pryor, Redd Foxx. Eddie Murphy, who is coming straight out of the dozens. Rap battling is clearly the dozens....But also just the extent to which, for example, when I started looking through writers from the Harlem Renaissance, there’s a dozens scene in virtually every book....Langston Hughes, his last cycle of poems was called “Ask Your Mama,” and it was his poems about living surrounded by white people on Long Island, which is where he had retired to. And it’s all about, “They rung my bell to ask me/ Could I recommend a maid./ I said, yes, your mama.”

IDEAS: Do you agree with Dollard’s 1939-era notion that the dozens acted as a safety valve, a safe space where blacks could be aggressive without consequences?

WALD: Well, it also gets framed in black culture very often as training on how not to lose it if somebody said something really horrible to you. And that’s something you find [recurring] a lot in older black people, saying the dozens is—it’s not pretty, but this was something young black men had to deal with, people saying vile stuff to them every day of their lives. And this was a form of training to learn not to lose it when somebody says something to you. Within the black community there have been arguments for why the dozens served a social function before the sociologists got into it.

IDEAS: Because so much of this tradition has been unwritten or censored, is it even possible to pinpoint the emergence of the dozens in American popular culture?

WALD: The first time the dozens was ever defined in print is in sheet music for a song called “Don’t Slip Me In the Dozen, Please,” from 1921. Then [blues singer] Speckled Red had this huge hit in 1929 with a song called “The Dirty Dozens.” And then there were like 20 covers and follow-up and answer songs, and everybody in the blues started doing their dozens song.

IDEAS: How does the dozens live on today in hip-hop beefs?

WALD: I would say the main thing that it has to do with beefs is just that this is where people often go with beefs: It often gets into mothers and girlfriends or whatever. But I don’t think beefs is really that similar to the dozens. Beefs is people who are genuinely angry with each other. Rap battling is really what’s more like the dozens. Because people battle and sometimes they genuinely dislike each other, but sometimes they’re really good friends. And if they’re good battlers, you can’t tell which you’re watching, because either way they’re going to...say the nastiest things they can think of, and that’s really how the dozens works: It’s about the creativity. It’s about saying something not only nasty enough so that the other guy can’t think what to say, but also funny enough that the audience thinks that you’ve just done something smart. That’s the combination at the heart of the dozens.

The dozens as American art form: No, your mama! - The Boston Globe






to



 

WaveGang

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@IllmaticDelta

In the last thread I made on this subject even those stanning hard could admit rap battle was a derivative of sound clashes.

It's an indisputable fact in all fairness.
 

IllmaticDelta

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In the last thread I made on this subject even those stanning hard could admit rap battle was a derivative of sound clashes.

It's an indisputable fact in all fairness.

It's not though. Once you realize that Rap had all of it's antecedents layed down in the USA way before jamaica even had a popular music, it will make much more sense on raps, battling origins.


People don't realize the influence Jazz had on HipHop. For example Battling in HipHop can easily be traced back to the Cutting Contests of Ragtime and Jazz


A cutting contest was a musical battle between various stride piano players from the 1920s to 1940s, and to a lesser extent in improvisation contests on other jazz instruments during the swing era.

Up to the present time, the expression cutting in jazz is sometimes used, sometimes facetiously, to claim a new musician's technical superiority over another.

Cutting contests first had a more earnest meaning only among pianists, and later existed for their own sake. Originally, to "cut" another piano player meant to replace him at his job by outperforming him. This serious form of rivalry ended by the 1920s when pianists began acquiring more stable engagements, and basic ragtime and "fast shout" piano evolved into the more improvised stride style (a term that began to be used in the 1920s).

"Cutting" came to mean victory at a pre-arranged contest. These contests were usually held at Harlem home "rent parties", where an entrance fee helped residents pay their rent. In the contests, often one pianist began a tune; then others took turns "cutting in", introducing increasingly more complex ideas, changing the key and/or tempo, and otherwise trying to outplay and out-style the previous musician(s).

The great stride pianists James P. Johnson and his "rival", Willie "The Lion" Smith, often participated in cutting contests. However, they had so much respect for one another that their contests usually ended in draws, and they "cut in" only for humorous effect.

Cutting contests continued into the 1940s. Art Tatum usually won the contests he engaged in, beating out such notable pianists as Fats Waller, Teddy Wilson, Count Basie, Earl "Fatha" Hines, Albert Ammons, Harry Gibson, Pete Johnson, Marlowe, Clarence Prophet, and Claude Hopkins.[1]

Cutting contests also took place between blues musicians.[2]

An enduring form of the cutting contest is the "trading" tradition in jazz improvisation, where two or more musicians alternately play parts of solo choruses. Rap battles could also be considered a present-day form of the cutting contest

Cutting contest - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


The Jazz Evangelist: jazz gladiators and cutting sessions

Jazz has a bloody past. Its history includes a musical battle that might remind you of the battles of Roman gladiators. These jazz battles were known as "cutting sessions;" only the strong survived.

Cutting sessions began with piano players during the early part of the 1900s, when piano playing was aggressive and physical. Stride piano players like Art Tatum were all the rage at the time. They would perform incredible acts of dexterity on the piano that seemed almost impossible.

To survive a cutting session you had to out play your opponent. A challenge would be made between a hungry up-and-coming young piano player and an established piano master. It was like a young bull trying to become the dominant male. The two would go head-to-head, trading their best licks against each other. The crowd would sit with their mouths agape cheering on the opponents. Eventually a winner would be crowned by the audience, and the loser would leave the stage with their head hung low.

Cutting sessions also took place at jazz clubs with other instrumentalists. Some of the most renowned cutting sessions took place at Minton's Playhouse in New York City on Monday nights. Musicians would face each other onstage to trade for what amounted to an improvisational faceoff. It was serious business because not just anyone could get up onstage. If you were new in town you would have to go through an audition in the back room earlier that day, where a handful of Minton's staff would put you through your paces first. It was like auditioning for today's X Factor. If you were good enough, you'd move on to the stage that night.

Many musicians during the 1940s established themselves as worthy for work in the cutthroat business of jazz. If you went head-to-head with Dizzy Gillespie and ended up holding your own (or even defeating Gillespie), you would be guaranteed work for years to come.

http://music.cbc.ca/#!/blogs/2013/1/The-Jazz-Evangelist-jazz-gladiators-and-cutting-sessions


Battle of The Bands

 

ThiefyPoo

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When it comes to this war ting hip hop is trash compared to dancehall .

The lyrics are piercing !!!

The best part about dancehall is one how fast them disses come out and of course clashes .






:whew:

Pure bad man chune !!!



But kartel the war angle I could post a trillion disses .
 
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