Is it widely known that Hip Hop/Rap was born in Jamaica?

[IllmaticDelta]

Not sure if you can compare that to a genre of music where DJs were spitting over dubs and playing breaks in the 1950s but ok

Breaks in the 50's?

 

[RAX 010]

Hip Hop was born in the Bronx

 

[IllmaticDelta]

It's irrelevant considering in the 1950s, DJs in Jamaica were extending the breaks on records/ creating dubs and reciting rhymes over them.

There was no "Dub"music in Jamaica in the 1950's

If you can point me to DJs in New York doing that before the 70s I will dap you

What we do know about rapping is that it didn't come from Jamaica



Do you know where Jamaicans actually first picked up what they call toasting? Black American radio Dj's of the 1940's R&b era




American rapping and Jamaican Toasting and dancehall style are related/cousins but its through a different route.. Oldschool black american jive talking-patter!.



The first modern rappers in he scene(s) that birth HipHop were actually Disco Dj"s!!. For the record, Coke La Rock didn't rap like a modern rapper and he's actually from North Carolina


The first people in NYC to "Rap" on the mic were these Disco DJ's like Dj Hollywood and Lovebug Starski . The Kool Herc school of "Mcing" which started off with his main sidekick/MC by name of Coka La Rock . The confusion as where to Rapping started comes from the misconception that American Rapping evolved out of Jamaican "Toasting" via Coke La Rock who was thought to thought to be of Jamaican descent




"The first emcee in hip hop history has been ignored and disrespected for far too long. That is why he will be the first representative of the original hip hop generation to be inducted into the High Times Counterculture Hall of Fame at the High Times Cannabis Cup in Amsterdam on November 25, 2010. In this video, Coke discusses how he got his name (from drinking chocolate milk), some of the errors in fact that have been circulated about him, and talks in detail about the night Kool Herc was stabbed at a party, an event which led to Coke withdrawing from the hip hop scene just as Grandmaster Flash, the L Brothers, The Funky Four, and the Cold Crush Brothers were emerging to take hip hop to new heights."


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Herc and Coke La Rock did not rap or do syncopated talking that rhymes while flowing to a beat/music. What Coke La Rock did was more like a radio Dj which is more like Jamaican toasting. Now, the question is, what is the relationship between American Rapping and Jamaican Toasting? The connection is oldschool Afram Jive speak/patter/other oral traditions! Jamaican Toasting is an offshoot of Afram Jive that Jamaicans picked up on in the 1940's/50's from Black Radio DJ and Jazz R&B records. Read below..

More on Jocko, one of the american dj's who was imitated in Jamaica

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Douglas "Jocko" Henderson ranks with Daddy O' Daylie and Hot Rod Hulbert as one of the original rhythm and blues radio disc jockeys. His smooth, swinging, rhymed talkovers were imitated by the jocks of the early rock and roll era, and became one of the major sources for the rap style. Though his influence on hip-hop was crucial, it took an indirect route as the model for the toasts of early Jamaican sound system deejays. Some say that Jocko's syndicated radio shows, beamed into the Caribbean from Miami provided the standard for Jamaican deejays. Another story claims that sound system promoter and record producer Coxsone Dodd encountered Jocko on one his record buying trips to the U.S., and encouraged his dee-jays to imitate Jocko's style. However his influence reached Jamaica, titles like "The Great Wuga Wuga" by Sir Lord Comic and "Ace from Space" by U. Roy were catch phrases directly appropriated from Jocko's bag of verbal tricks. When Kool DJ Herc adapted the Jamaican sound system to New York City party crowds, the stylized public address patter that accompanied his bass heavy program was rooted in Jocko's rhyming jive patter.

Jocko started in radio in the Baltimore of 1950, moving to Philadelphia, where he attained enough momentum to arrange a daily commute to New York for a second shift. It was in New York that he hosted "Jocko's Rocket Ship", a black oriented television dance party show that was the forerunner of "Soul Train". He also made many appearances as an M.C. of rhythm and blues shows and hosted large scale record hops that anticipated ballroom disco shows."

http://www.allmusic.com/artist/jocko-mn0000113325/biography

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Definition of toasting in Jamaican culture

toasting, chatting, or deejaying is the act of talking or chanting, usually in a monotone melody, over a rhythm or beat by a deejay. The lyrics can be either improvised or pre-written. Toasting has been used in various African traditions, such as griots chanting over a drum beat, as well as in Jamaican music forms, such as dancehall, reggae, ska, dub, and lovers rock. Toasting's mix of talking and chanting may have influenced the development of MCing in US hip hop music. The combination of singing and toasting is known as singjaying.

In the late 1950s deejay toasting was developed by Count Machuki. He conceived the idea from listening to disc jockeys on American radio stations. He would do American jive over the music while selecting and playing R&B music. Deejays like Count Machuki working for producers would play the latest hits on traveling sound systems at parties and add their toasts or vocals to the music. These toasts consisted of comedy, boastful commentaries, chants, half-sung rhymes, rhythmic chants, squeals, screams, and rhymed storytelling.

Definition of "Toasts" in Black American culture

Part of the African American oral tradition is toasting (rhymed folk tales about various mythical folk heroes) and signifiying (Signifying refers to the act of using secret or double meanings of words to either communicate multiple meanings to different audiences, or to trick them. To the leader and chorus of a work song, for example, the term “captain” may be used to indicate discontent, while the overseer of the work simultaneously thinks it’s being used as a matter of respect.). Signifiying also involves taking concepts and situations and redefining them. It is part ingenuity, innovation, adaptation, and style. Stories, ideals, and songs can all be signified.


Traditional African American toasting
Toasting has been part of African American urban tradition since Reconstruction as part of a verbal art tradition, dating back to the griots of Africa. African American stories usually lauds the exploits of the clever and not entirely law-abiding trickster hero (not always human) who uses his wits to defeat his opponents.
Toasters continue the oral tradition by recounting the legends and myths of the community in venues ranging from street corner gatherings, bars, and community centers, to libraries and college campuses. As with oral traditions in general, and with other African American art forms as the blues, toasting uses a mixture of repetition and improvisation.
There are many versions of the best-known toasts, often conflicting in detail. Historically, the toast is very male- oriented, and many toasts contain profane or sexual language, although more family-oriented versions also exist.
Well known toasts include "Shine and the Titanic", "Dolemite", "Stack O Lee", "Jo Jo Gun," and "Signifyin' Monkey."

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Now to get a description of what Herc and his 2 sidemen were doing on the mic..The first people to "rap" in the Bronx scence were members of the Furious Five. These were people like Melle Mel and Cowboy

Quote from Scorpio one of the founding members to the group, Grandmaster Flash and the Furious 5

JQ : Furious was one of the original groups outside of the Herculords right ?

SC : With the Herculords - Timmy Tim & Coke La Rock they never rhymed ; they just said lil phrases like "yes yall youre now listening to the sounds of Kool Herc and the Herculords" . But we were the first group in the Bronx to do full rhymes to the beat . If we own any patent ,its that rhymin' to the beat

http://www.thafoundation.com/scorpiof5int.htm



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Quote From Kool Herc on how rapping started

With that in mind I wondered something: If Coke La Rock (Kool Herc’s MC) was just spittin’ little phrases on the mike, not full all out rhymes as we know it today, then who was the first real MC spittin’ lyric for lyric on beat with a continuous flow?

“Mr. Herc,” I asked him as I scratched my head and searched for the right words. “I’m curious about something.” I said, “Who was the first person that you saw rap as we know it today?”

Just then at that moment a warm smile enveloped Kool Herc’s street hardened face. He looked out the window across the street at Lake Merritt, almost as if he was looking back at that day, in a quiet voice he said, “It was Mele Mel… Mele Mel and Kid Creole. They were at a boxing gym on 169th St, in the Fort Apache area, as a matter of fact, it was the last place that I seen Big Pun alive at.”

In a quiet and almost somber voice he recalled the events while sometimes taking a pause to look down at his battle scarred hands. “They was in the middle of a boxing ring with these big Afro’s… Kid Creole, as little as he is, had one too. Flash was behind them cuttin’. When I saw them I just smiled cause I knew where they got it from…they got it from me. And they knew that they got it from me. I wasn’t mad. Mele Mel saw me in the crowd and just nodded at me. I laughed to myself.”

It must’ve been one helluva moment.

Hanging above the dimly lit gym was a thick cloud of smoke; it was a pungent mixture of cigarettes and reefer laced with angel dust. Stoned out dust heads tripped out as the dazzling display of flashing lights played psychedelic tricks on their minds. In the red light haze surrounded by stick up kids, gangsters and hyperactive b-boys Kool Herc got to see the first steps of his creation taking on a new dimension, as brothers Mele Mel and Creole were laying down the foundation for rap, as we know it today..

http://hiphop101a.blogspot.com/2008/06/once-upon-time-in-bronx-rise-of.html

Quote from Kevie Kev the captain of the L- Brothers, Leader of the Fantastic Four and Five M.C.s and a member once of the Furious Five M.C.s. This interview is very telling because it explains why what he call "rappers" today were called "emcees" in the Herc Bronx scene.

Q -The first m.c. you heard on the mic was one of Herc’s boy’s?



A -No, no, they wasn’t really m.c.ing, they just use to talk on the mic. The first m.c.’s I saw was Creole and Mele Mel.



Q- So what about Coke La Rock, did he also just talk on the mic?



A - Yeah he used to talk on the mic, little slurs or what ever, but he was like the strong arm to Herc’s crew. He was like the voice unheard, you know what I am saying, the low. That’s my man.



Q - As far as an m.c., did he get down like ya’ll did, because I have a lot of people that ask me about Coke La Rock?



A - No, it’s different, it was totally different. If we used to try to rhyme, he used to just talk.



(interviewer) Right.



A -Like a real m.c., a master of ceremony.

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Definition of Master of Ceremonies (MC)

A Master of Ceremonies (MC or emcee), or Compère, is the official host of a staged event or similar performance. An MC usually presents performers, speaks to the audience, and generally keeps the event moving

This is exactly what Herc and his 2 sidemen were doing in the early days in the Bronx. At that point, there were no rappers=syncopated talking that rhymes while flowing to a beat/music . Rappers in the modern sense did exist with the Disco DJ's though. You didn't have rappers in the Bronx/herc scene before Melle Mel and Cowboy.

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Read Grandmaster Caz's and Grandmaster Flash's thought on the early MC's and where rapping came from below. Afrika Baambaata alos cites some influences

 

[IllmaticDelta]

Rapping and the Dancehall style (they call it Deejaying in Jamaica) are cousins and here is the connection
black american oral traditions---->Jive/Patter---->Scatting--->Jazz/tribal poetry-->Rapping
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Jive/Patter + scatting-->Toasting--->Deejay===Dancehall style

The Jive/Patter is what connects them but the two styles basically evolved independently of each other. Modern Rapping is the evolution of pre-existing black american practices while Jamaican Dancehall styles evolved out of Toasting which evolved from BlackAmerican Jive/Patter that they heard Black American radio DJ's doing.


Black America

1920's







1930's



his is pretty much the same flow, cadence and delivery as Rapper Delight, the first commercial Rap song






1940s

These 3 would a type of Jive talking









Gospel cats were even flowing in the same period










1968 Jive talk over a true Funk break!





Jazz related

Scatting (1920s)




Jazz-Tribal Poetry (1960's-1970s)


1971





what's called "toasting" in Jamaica is what we called "Jive Talk" in America. What we called "Toasts" in America is like the album 'Hustlers Convention"

The album was a major influence on hip hop music[1] and combined poetry, funk, jazz, and toasting.[2] Hustlers Convention helped add a sociopolitical element to black music.[3] The album narrates the story of two fictional hustlers, named Sport and Spoon.

and...

Chuck Berry flowing in the early late 1950's/1960's







Modern Rap 1979




vs


Jamaica



Jamaican Toasting (between 1960's-1970's)

Movements - Count Machuki



SIR LORD COMIC - JACK OF MY TRADE



king stitt--dance beat



U-Roy - Version Galore





Modern Dancehall "Deejay" style

Yellow Man - Over me (1981)



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Now that can some examples from above. The biggest difference is the American examples are more steady flowing and syncopated with the rhymes while the jamaican examples are more freelanced and not syncopated/rhyming to the steady beats. Read below.....



" Rather than riding the beat with a constant flow of syncopated syllables as rappers have since the late 70s, Jamaica’s DJs of the 60s and early 70s and hip-hop’s earliest DJs/MCs would pepper songs with short phrases, often in the form of rhyming couplets, employing the latest slang (including scat-filled routines), and often in a relatively free manner — i.e., without relating too directly to the rhythm of the track playing on the turntable (but frequently connecting to the track’s theme or to specific lyrics or connotations the song may have)."

http://wayneandwax.com/?page_id=271

A bit more on the differences between the Disco Dj's and the Herc scenes and how they impacted the formation of HipHop

From the article below:

"In contrast to Herc's pulled-ups and needle drops, disco dj's favored smooth segues from track to track. They also tended to rap in a more mellifluous style, relating directly, if casually, to the steady beats of the music they were playing, and stringing together long verse like presentations of their own set of stock phrases rather than the freer, more fragmented interjections of the Herculords and their streetwise colleagues. The next generation of hiphop Dj's and Mc's would synthesize these distinct strands, refining (if not outright commercializing) "street" style while bringing in a harder edge to the smooth surfaces of club rap and disco djing."

 

[IllmaticDelta]

Thats it

Rapping over beats started in Jamaica, Jamaicans called it toasting. Toasting caught on in America and became rapping


Toasting is rhyming over the break of beats, Jamaicans were doing this in the 1950s. If an someone was toasting with an American accent it would be considered rapping.

I just posted the examples above, Jamaican toasting isn't rapping for the simple reason that it's not syncopated to the beat. It's more like freelance interjections. Not rapping at all

 

[IllmaticDelta]

People believe this lie for two reasons.

1-They have a dislike of America or Black Americans so they don't like to give us credit.

2-They saw a clip on TV, saw herc was from Jamaica, and just repeat shyt without thinking about it. Once you study the time hip hop was born, you can see what we were told is pure bullshyt, and used to make money.

Tons of people (pioneers) from back in the days who were around know that it's BS about HipHop/Rapping coming from jamaica through Herc and the standardized history of HipHop is false.The facts have been outthere in print since the 80's but noone is reading in between the lines


Interesting riff between Herc and Bambattas camp (Zulu Nation) on the origin of HipHop culture. Who said there was no debate on the origins from the Og's?


Zulu Nation Says DJ Kool Herc Did Not Start Hip Hop And Is Misrepresenting The Culture

AllHipHop News) There has been a lot of fanfare over the past week in celebration of what has been reported as the 40th anniversary of the birth of Hip Hop.
DJ Kool Herc is one originator that has become almost synonymous with the creation of the culture, but Quadeer “M.C. Spice” Shakur of the Universal Zulu Nation released a statement announcing that Hip Hop did not begin with Herc’s famous party at 1520 Sedgewick Avenue in the Bronx on August 11, 1973.

According to Shakur, Herc is a founding father of Hip-Hop, but he has been misrepresenting his role in the founding of Hip Hop on various news outlets.

The Zulu Nation Minister of Information also states that Kool Herc has asked his name not be included in any Zulu Nation Hip Hop Culture anniversary flyers several of years ago.


In portions of his statement titled “MISREPRESENTATION OF A CULTURE BY A FOREFATHER”, Shakur writes:

Herc is our brother, but when our family strays from us, we must first forgive them for mistakes, but let them know of their wrongdoings, and of course, welcome them back with open arms. We could go on forever about how many artists who are heavily a part of, or were a part of the Universal Zulu Nation, know and understand how serious this is. By no means should ANY of us attempt to change the course of history and flip it for a dollar or for accolades from an industry of Culture Vultures called “the media”, when we have known and still do know that many in the media want the false, doctored-up UN-truths, not the REAL truth. Especially when it comes to Hip-Hop. What is further disturbing is the falsehood that Kool Herc failed to respect the TRUE first ladies of Hip-Hop: ShaRock, Lisa Lee, Debbie Dee, Queen Amber. The women who were there ON THE MIC representing this Culture. Kool Herc went as far as saying his SISTER is the “first lady of Hip-Hop”. Kool Herc’s sister is also his marketing rep, and is part of promoting the falsehood that she (Cindy) is the “First Lady” of Hip-Hop. That’s NOT TRUE.

Kool Herc, aka Clive Campbell DID NOT BIRTH HIP-HOP CULTURE 40 YEARS AGO ON AUGUST 11, 1973. In fact, Kool Herc only did a Back To School JAM in the recreation room at 1520 Sedgewick Avenue in the Bronx. No emcees were present, no “Hip-Hop” was present (a term heavily used by LoveBug Starski and Keith Cowboy), and the Zulu Nation was already in effect. THIS is the reason for this message. Please get a pen and write this down, or go stand near the chalkboard and write this one hundred times to make SURE you remember: HIP-HOP CULTURE IS 39 YEARS OLD…ZULU NATION IS 40 YEARS OLD.

Some may say there’s no difference, and it’s only a year. But truth is, Kool Herc appears to be working with outside forces to overstep and outshine what is taking place THIS November 12th: The 40th Anniversary of the Universal Zulu Nation. Do you know how big that really is? How dangerous that really is? That so many brothers and sisters of the same accord have been together THIS strong for THIS long?

To be forthcoming about the FACTS concerning this message, we MUST inform those who are a part of this Culture that Universal Zulu Nation does NOT condone falsehoods with respects to this Culture of ours. Kool Herc may have done PARTIES, but a PARTY does NOT represent a MOVEMENT. Nor does a PARTY CREATE a movement. But the CULTURE of Hip-Hop CREATED a MOVEMENT and REPRESENTS a movement. Zulu represents and always WILL represent the four spiritual PRINCIPLES of The Culture: Peace, Unity, Love and Having Fun. We also promoted and rocked parties UTILIZING the five physical ELEMENTS of the Culture: Deejaying, Graffitti, Breakdancing, Emceeing and KNOWLEDGE. I would hope that Herc would adhere to the KNOWLEDGE of our Culture and refrain form the misrepresentation and falsehoods. This message is to inform you that there is NO TRUTH to what you have been hearing about Kool Herc and Hip-Hop having a 40th anniversary. Maybe Kool HERC was deejaying for 40 years. Maybe so. But Kool Herc has nothing to do with the TERM “Hip-Hop”. It was a Culture he was INVITED to once our founder Afrika Bambaataa FOUNDED the Culture USING the term. That said, I would venture to say that perhaps Kool Herc’s SOUND system , “The Herculords” is 40 years old, but not Hip-Hop. Give it another year, Herc. And give it a rest. We love you, but we MUST correct you, brother. Happy 39th birthday, Hip-Hop. Happy 40th Birthday, Zulu Nation.

http://allhiphop.com/2013/08/20/zul...t-hip-hop-and-is-misrepresenting-the-culture/


A couple of interesting posts from Rahiem of Grandmaster Flash & The Furious 5, who came up in the Herc scene..

"I'm Rahiem of Grandmaster Flash & The Furious 5 and the minister of information of the Zulu nation is a clown and so is ANYONE else if after 40 years of Hip-hop culture and agreeing that DJ Kool Herc is the father of Hip-hop so why would that have changed after 40 years? I used to be in Bronx river when the Zulu nation began and the Zulu nation began in 1977-78 and Kool Herc began in 1973 so do the math and the Zulu nation were still the Black Spades during the "Blackout" of 1977 and shortly afterwards became the Bronx river organization and then the Zulu nation and honestly the people who are considered to be forefathers of the Hip-hop culture actually changed the game by adding to it and Everyone who was truly there you knew who did what and we know who set trends or brought something to the game to change it and Bambaataa and the Zulu nation didn't change the game! Grandmaster Flash Changed the game!!!!! Kool Herc is the genesis of the game and Bambaataa added what? More beats? STOP IT!!!!!!!!"

^^It's well known Herc is before Baambatta and Flash.


Now here is his take on how rapping started...

"Dancers that did a dance called the B-boying or that danced to Boioing music came directly from Kool Herc parties. Kool Herc's emcees didn't rhyme to the beat but they said catchy phrases that were adopted by emcees who expounded on what they were doing after Herc's emcees and then when emcees heard DJ Hollywood is when they began rhyming to the beat!"

Again, confirms everything I've said the whole time. Disco Dj's are the ones who started that syncopated rhyming (rapping) style. Totally different flavor from what Jamaican toasters/deejays were doing like U-Roy and the examples I gave earlier in the thread. Numerous people from the Herc scene acknowledge that there was no rapping in the Herc scene before like 1976 and that all Herc and his boys did was basically freelance shout outs.

 

[NvrCMyNut]

There's a reason Hiphop was born in the melting pot and not some segregated shyt hole in the south.

 

[IllmaticDelta]

Some other takes on rapping and the Disco Dj's vs Bronx bboys dynamic...


KID CREOLE from Furious 5

JayQuan : Peace ; its an honor to speak to you , what year did you start Emceeing and who made you want to Emcee ?


Creole : It was around ' 75 , Mel was hangin' out with Flash & them - thats how I got associated with Flash.

We used to go to Kool Herc parties ; really anybody that had equipment we would go see them in the parks. Herc was one of the few Djs that had legitimate equipment and he would have inside parties and charge people . They didn't have a distinction between who was the Dj and who was the Emcee , because all the Djs Emceed . Pete Dj Jones and those cats had the Hank Span Disc Jockey voice. Timmy Tim , Clark Kent and Coke La Rock were three guys who were down with Herc . Tim & Clark Kent would say phrases like " on down till the A.M. " or " back & forth / forth & back " - just lil phrases , not full rhymes. They would say either nursery rhymes or stuff that the Last Poets had said. My sister Linda used to write poetry , so thats how we were introduced to it in general . Tim & Clark Kent would say it to the beat ; even though it wasn't that rhythmic. It was like " A taste of the pace with the bass in ya face". Because it was done in that pattern we wrote rhymes that were to that pattern. So for me it was Timmy Tim , Clark Kent , My Brother (Mele Mel) and my sister.


JQ : Im told that you and Mel were the first to split words between each other & go back & forth.


CR : Yeah , when we first started rhyming we wrote everything together , so it was a natural progression.


JQ : How about the " throw ya hands in the air " and all the call and response tactics ;

are you all responsible for that ?


CR : We weren't the first , but it was an evolution. Hollywood had mad crowd responses like "where's that place we work it out?" And the crowd responded "at the Alps (hotel) is where we work it out". We thought it was so fly . Cowboy really excelled at that kinda thing , lyrically he wasn't at the level of me & Mel , but he had no fear of asking the crowd to say this or do that.

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FUNKY 4 + 1

JQ : So who was the first person you ever saw Emcee...and who influenced you ?

LRC : The first person I ever saw Emcee was Keith Cowboy . He was a crowd motivator....he was mostly doin chants . The person that made me say that I can do this is Melle Mel....he really influenced me . Kid Creole was an early Emcee too . Hollywood and Starski and all those cats will tell you that they were first . They are right to an extent , but there were two classes of Hip Hop at the time...Disco & then the hard B Boys that used breakbeats . Hollywood and them were Disco Djs. Also Mel & Creole were the first Emcees to do back & forth rhyming.

http://www.thafoundation.com/funk4int.htm

 

[IllmaticDelta]

From Markskillz,the HipHop historian

Ok, time to hype my own site. If you really want to get quotes on this subject ya need to check out the articles I've been writing for the last three years. I have covered this part of the story extensively the whole "disco side" of hip-hop thing. Go over to my site http://hiphop101a.blogspot.com and check it out for yourselves.

Here's Eddie Cheba
http://hiphop101a.blogspot.com/2007/09/ ... -yall.html

Here's Reggie Wells
http://hiphop101a.blogspot.com/2007/06/ ... tunes.html

Here's DJ Hollywood
http://hiphop101a.blogspot.com/2007/05/ ... ywood.html

Here's both Pete DJ Jones and Kool DJ Herc along with AJ
http://hiphop101a.blogspot.com/2007/05/ ... house.html

Here's the story of Disco Fever
http://hiphop101a.blogspot.com/2007/05/ ... fever.html

And finally in this one the Rise of Grandmaster Flash and the Furious Five you here from Mel himself what he heard Coke La Rock and Timmy Tim doing
http://hiphop101a.blogspot.com/2008/06/ ... se-of.html

Some basics that I have uncovered: Sometime in the early 70's deejays in Manhattan (more than likely KC the Prince of Soul started this) started talking "slick stuff" on the mic. Not to the beat and not even rhyming but saying slick s--t that flowed together. check the Reggie Wells joint for elaboration on that. Hollywood told me in the beginning of his career he was using that style to intro records, and then it progressed. At the same time Coke La Rock was talking on the mic as well. From all accounts he was not rapping as we know it today. In fact, when you read my story "Once Upon A Time in the Boogie Down Bronx" you'll see Kool Herc's take on the rappin'.

I gotta add to this conversation what Pete Jones told me - and he told Jayquan the same thing too, no one person created anything, it all emerged from different things. Mike Barnes, I read somewhere that Tee Scott and Walter Gibbons used to mix breaks in their sets, is that true, did you witness that? Those dudes were some real fly spinners in their time and they were doing their thing in the mid 70's too.

The point I've been trying to make for years is that no one's contributions should be dismissed. I have debated Bambaataa, Caz and Toney Tone on this very issue many times. Kool Herc shut me down as soon as I mentioned Hollywood, but, it ain''t just a coincidence that the man is credited by many many many many peo[ple as being the father of rap. Whether you like his style of rhyming or his rhymes or not, the man has been credited by people for being the father of rap for three decades. And I gotta add, during the period before records he was known on the streets in every borough as the king of rap. Don't agree don't listen to me just ask around... people from outside of the Bronx will credit Wood day and night. In the Bronx - no, them dudes front on Wood like its a contact sport. For real.

When I first heard Afrika Bam talking about Wood in interviews he would be very dismissive of him and say that he played disco for that hustle type crowd , the bourgeois Black type crowd. He said that so many times and always said the words "disco" and "Hustle" in the same sentence so that a person reading it would think: white suit and open silk shirt and white folks doing the hustle...

Not true. And not one reporter back then asked him to clarify that statement.

When I interviewed Wood, I asked him, so did you play at Studio 54? He said 'Oh hell no. I played for the hustlers. You know the brothers who were about their money and dressin fly who came sharp to the party. You know the powder people.

Which is a Big difference! He was playing for Freddy Myers, Guy Fisher, Bats Ross, Pee Wee Kirkland and people like that. That ain't the Steve Rubell/Mark Benacke crowd, oh hell no! Them dudes were in the streets for real!

When I interviewed Kool Herc he told me that he and Coke used to play at spots that were kind of sort of like 'Speak-easies" he told me. It was an older crowd, they were more mellow, so he couldn't rock APACHE he played things like T Plays it Cool. He told me that's where Guy Fisher and Bats Ross and them dudes would check him out at. Later Fisher and ROss would check him out at Executive Playhouse and Hevalo as well. So you see, how the two scenes would overlap?

And it Flash, Theodore, Starsky, Pete Jones, Wood and others to played on the same bill together from time to time.

 

[IllmaticDelta]

@IllmaticDelta From the last post, it really does look like jealousy, and ego, is stopping the truth from being told. The jealous part is them not doing it like the "disco dj's" were doing it at the time, and they didn't get the props those dj's got, so once they seen hip hop was gaining some traction they claimed it as their own. The ego is not letting them acknowledge the truth or at least tell the truth. They are even arguing with each other as to who started it. To me that sounds like a collusion that is starting to fall apart!

True. These Bronx dudes trying to take all the credit

Herc doesn't like Hollywood at all he even once hated Flash

According to Nelson George, Herc has always been indignant toward the competition. “I remember him having resentment toward Grandmaster Flash when I first interviewed him in 1977.” Years later, when George campaigned to have Herc included on the Hip Hop Honors of 2004, he was annoyed that D.J. Hollywood was also included. “Herc was very upset.”

http://nymag.com/anniversary/40th/50665/index2.html


From the same markskillz guy:

I think you are talking about an article that Kurtis Blow wrote, it was for the liners for the History of Hip Hop series it was a CD comp he put together. Somewhere in it, Kurtis said something to the effect that Hollywood and Herc couldn't stand each other.

I have interviewed both men - extensively I might add. I can say that Hollywood holds no beef nor grudge or any bad feelings toward Herc.

Herc has gone on record - as has Bambaataa, and said, that Hollywood wasn't hip hop and didn't start hip hop.

Wood told me in my interviews with him and a really good one that he did with with my friend and collegue Davey D, that he didn't start hip hop and doesn't take credit for it.

Davey did a phone interview with Kurtis Blow, Kool Herc and Dj Hollywood - Herc flat out said, "You didn't start hip hop you weren't hip hop", to which Wood responded something to the effect of, "Ok, I'm not hip hop, but as far as rap goes, yes I am one of the founding fathers of rap - not hip hop".

I am working with my editors at Wax Poetics to see how quickly we can get my article with Eddie Cheba out. I talked with Cheba at great lengths and got a lot of good info from him. I honestly don't know when Wax will be dropping that issue- but I promise you it is GHETTO RED HOT.

But before that issue drops I wrote one about Planet Rock - I interviewed the MC's for this one: GLOBE and Mr Biggs. Mr Biggs told me "Rap started with guys like DJ Hollywood and Eddie Cheba and Jocko Henderson, they had that radio style of rap."

I asked him about Kool Herc and he said the most interesting thing to me:

"You know, alot of people got Kool Herc twisted, back in the days Kool Herc was not hip hop. He played for the older crowd the bougousie type of crowd. They wore mock necks and things like that, we were [the Black Spades/Zulu] hip hop back then. His crowd left him and he started playing for us."

As b-boys started growing up they went from the hardcore b-boy clubs to the older set where deejays like Hollywood and Cheba ruled. As much as I love hip hop today, I cannot hang out with a bunch of youngsters. When I go out I get dressed up a lil somethin throw on my nice ****, no what I mean? I don't drink 40's - I'm damn near 40 can't be drinkin that ****. I drink red wine now. I'm married I take my wife with me we hang out a little somethin somethin and it's all good ya know.

Now when i was younger I rolled to certain sets in my sweat suit and hat and sneakers, I drank beer all night, I went with my home boys, I rolled around the spot a little somethin collecting numbers and whatever have you- that's how I rolled back then - but mostly i was there to check out the deejays and get up on some girls!

That is the transition cats made from Flash, AJ, Herc and Theodore parties (sneakers and jeans) to Pete Jones, Flowers, Plummer, Reggie Wells, Hollywood, Cheba parties (slacks, shirt, jewelry, dress shoes)

In case ya don't know Mr Biggs was/is a very close friend of Bam's and an original member of the Zulu Nation - matter of fact he went with Bam from the Spades to Organization to the Zulu's.

Herc told me (do a google and you can hear the audio interview that Davey D and I did with him) that he and Coke played at after hours spots, he referred to them as "speak-easies", he said the music was a little more laid back so he'd play stuff like "T Play's It Cool", "Change (Makes You Want to Hustle)" all that kind of stuff - and who would be there? Nicky's people.

Those guys transitioned out of Herc parties into Pete Jones/Hollywood type spots. You know as you get older you ain't trying to be around a bunch of kids, you want to be around people your age. You want to dress up so that you can catch the ladies in the house and buy them drinks and whatnot so that you get their phone numbers and run your game...

This quote here from Mr Biggs: "You know, alot of people got Kool Herc twisted, back in the days Kool Herc was not hip hop. He played for the older crowd the bougousie type of crowd. They wore mock necks and things like that, we were [the Black Spades/Zulu] hip hop back then. His crowd left him and he started playing for us."
Doesn't contradict anything when you think about it - it backs it up.

Herc played for the people he went to school with when he first started - that was the first audience, from what i can tell they weren't all gang members and things like that, they were regular kids from average homes. In fact, in some interviews Herc has done he has said as much, that his audience wasn't as hard core as would be believed. But those people graduated from high school and went to college, after a while they wanted to hang out in more mature spots.

In the book 'Can't Stop Won't Stop" Flash told my man Jeff Chang: "After a while I started noticing my crowd was disappearing. Turns out they were going to a place called Club 371 where this big fat guy who called himself Dj Hollywood was rocking the hell out of them people."

Depending on where you were from back then, determined what you were exposed to first.

But the most important thing that I want people to walk away with from this series of articles that I am doing (which started with Reggie Wells, DJ Hollywood, Disco Fever, One Night at the Executive Playhouse and ends by the way with Eddie Cheba), is that, yes, there were two different camps for hip hop back then the commercial side were the Uptown cats Pete Jones, Hollywood and Cheba; the hardcore side: Flash, Herc, Bam, Aj, Theodore...

Both camps started roughly at the same time and did basically the same things. Yes, there were differences (scratching and record selection) but it was basically the same thing. Chuck D and Kurtis Blow told it to me the best: They took hip hop and put a suit and bow tie on it, they made it classy for the over 18 crowd outside of the Bronx.

 

[IllmaticDelta]

another dj from the black disco scene Reggie Wells

(standing with Kool Herc)

Cats on the hiphop circuit know about the work Reggie Wells put in at Club 371(Along with Hollywood, Eddie Cheeba, Junbug/Rip), During the mid 70's to early 80's, But, Cats on the dance music circuit most definitely know about Reggie Wells reputation for rockin a spot all-night to the morning lite at Justines(35thst and 8thave in Manhattan),

From 1979-1984, Reggie Wells started mixing on the Dance music circuit in 1974(Along with Reggie Wells mixing on the radio at CCNY in Harlem, During the mid/late 70's too, Reggie Wells was also mixing on BLS during the late 70's(1978-1980), Too, Reggie Wells, Junbug and Lovebug Starski, Are a few of the cats that i have ever heard, Who could

Rock a party for any type of crowd(Dance music crowd/R&B commercial crowd, Hiphop crowd, Stickup kid crowd, Big Willy drug dealer crowd, Etc), Reggie Wells was one of the premiere Dj's in New York, During ther late 70's to late 80's, Reggie Wells was one of the first cats to mix on the Intrepid(Battleship on 45thst and the Westside Highway),

he didn't do syncopated rhyming like Hollywood, he just did slick talk over the record more in the way like Coke La Rock/Herc

“Hotel/Motel, Holiday Inn, if you don’t tell, then I won’t tell, but I know where you been!”
That’s official son, that’s the original version of the chant that Big Bank Hank used in Rapper’s Delight. It started at a spot called Club 371, way back in 1976. It’s the spot where Harlem’s smooth style came to the Boogie Down Bronx. It’s also the spot where four Manhattan deejays pioneered the disco side of hip hop.

“See, after the club, if you met a young lady and you wanted to take her to a motel or whatever, the place to go was the Courtesy in Jersey”, said pioneer deejay Reggie Wells.

“We called it the “Big C”, so if you were at the “Big C” after the club and somebody saw your car there; you’d find a note on your windshield that said “Hotel/Motel, Holiday Inn, if you don’t tell then I won’t tell, but I know where you been!”

Around the same time that a Bronx deejay named Kool Herc was pioneering the break beat style that would later be called hip hop, black club deejays in Manhattan were refining a slick style of talk over disco records.

“It wasn’t really rhyming with the music, just saying slick stuff over the music,” says Wells, “I’d say something like: This is the man with the golden voice, that talks more shyt than a toilet bowl can flush, do more gigs than your grand momma wear wigs, got more clothes than you should wear pantyhose, yes baby sexy lady I hear ya hummin’ I see you comin’, come on momma with your bad self, keep a pep in your step – ain’t no time for no half steppin’. It’s W-e- double L-s, the worlds exciting and most long lasting sound…WELLS…if you hear any noise, its just Reggie Wells and the boys.”
Starting in 1974, CCNY student Reggie Wells went on-air at WCCR. One of the students that was there at the time was rap pioneer Kurtis Blow. Wells, who got his inspiration to be a deejay from WWRL radio personality Hank Spann, is one of the few deejays of his generation to play in both clubs and on the radio.

With a changing voice at the age of 13, Wells took to crank calling random people in the phone book, “ I would call somebody up and say, “Hello, is this the Smith residence?” and I’d pretend like I was on the radio – I had the radio up real loud so that the person on the other end would think I was from a radio station – they’d be like, “Yeah it is!” and I’d say, “If you can name your favorite radio station, I have a grand prize selected just for you. They’d go “WWRL” and I’d say, “Yes, this is WWRL, and my name is Reggie Wells, and you just won a brand new Panasonic color television set that doesn’t work!”

“Hearing people respond as if I was on the radio, made me think, that, maybe that’s what I should be doing.”

The first club that Wells started rappin’ on the mike at, was on 67th St. and was called Le Martinique and after that, he did clubs like Cork in the Bottle and Casablanca. But the place that made him a legend in the city was Club 371 in the Bronx, that’s where he joined such legends as rap innovators Eddie Cheeba, DJ Hollywood and the late-but unsung hero DJ Junebug.

A group called the Ten Good Guys owned Club 371, and it was there, that the four deejays bought Harlem’s style to the Bronx. Men wore dress shirts, slacks and dress shoes and women got in their fly wares as well, when they went out to party at 371.

However, before it was a spot for the disco side of hip hop, it had another reputation, “Club 371 was where big-time gangsters like Nicky Barnes and his crew used to hang out at in the Bronx”, says foundation-era promoter Van Silk.

“All the hustler types that went to 371 shopped at AJ Lester’s on 125th St., you had to be making money then to shop there. We bought nothing off the rack, everything was tailor-made. Brothers today don’t know about getting their pants measured from their waist to their toes”, said Silk, who back then was known as RC.

“Ron Isley and that old R&B group Black Ivory; they shopped at AJ Lester’s too. Brothers used to go there and buy sharkskin suits and gator shoes and Al Packer sweaters,” added Silk.

On the hip hop scene at that time, at clubs like the Hevalo and the Dixie, hip hop audiences wore sneakers and jeans and mock necks to jams. But, for the most part, initially, hip hop jams were in parks where anyone could attend.

“I remember going to Club 371 and standing in the middle of the place, and a record with a break came on, and we started breaking, and Hollywood, he’s my man and I love him to death, got on the mike and said, “There will be no diving on the floor in here!” That’s the kind of spot that was,” says foundation deejay and hip hop pioneer Toney Tone of the Cold Crush Brothers.

“We played break down parts of records at Club 371, but we didn’t specialize in that,” says legendary rap innovator DJ Hollywood.

“One reason that there was no break-dancing there was, because, for one thing, you couldn’t dance with a young lady, and be spinning on the floor. Girls were not going for that”, said Wells.

“Harlem was on some smooth shyt way before the Bronx. In Harlem, we were about having money, and rocking nice clothes, and having your hustle game on right. All that diving on the floor shyt, naw, that wasn’t happening. See while you down there on the floor, some smooth cat has come along and stole your girl!” said Hollywood.

“The real hustlers there didn’t drink. Their thing was to keep their game sharp, so if they did drink – they drank Perrier water”, said Wells.

“At that time, we drank Pipers, Moet and Don P. Drinking Don P at that time was the equivalent of drinking Cristal today. You see, back then; it was cool to drink a split. Nowadays, you see a brother in the club, and he’s walking around the club, with a bottle of Cristal – back then, you didn’t mind drinking a split. You didn’t have to buy the bottle – and your girl didn’t mind drinking a split either. You never saw anybody walking around with a bottle, we kept it in the bucket.”

“371 was one of the best clubs I ever worked for; the management, the staff, the deejays, I liked working with all of them. It’s rare that you get so many deejays together and they all got along. I met people that would come to 371 from all over, from places like; Connecticut, New Jersey, Brooklyn, Queens, Philly; this was a club that was known by word of mouth,” says Wells.

The club was doing so well that the deejays could afford to lease cars, “Hey I had a Lincoln Continental, Hollywood had a Cadillac, Junebug had a Cadillac as well; and Eddie Cheeba had a caddy too – except I think he had a driver!”

“I’ll never forget Grandmaster Flash had a yellow Cadillac! And you know that album Kurtis Blow did, where he was wearing the white leather suit on the cover, called “Tough”? Well on the back he’s posing in front of a limousine, that was his limo!”

Over the years it has been said that the jocks at 371 played disco – and it’s true they did, but they played the popular records of that time, that would play on radio stations like WBLS and WKTU like “Melting Pot” by Booker T and the MG’s and “Double Cross” by First Choice. These are records that deejays play today when they play the type of music called ‘classics’.

“The stuff that guys like me and Hollywood, Eddie Cheeba, and god bless Junebug, the stuff that we were doing, at that time, no one else was doing in any club in New York City. I’d say, to me, rap kind of started there, in that club, even though I heard about what was going on in the parks, as far as in the clubs, on a regular basis, that’s one of the first places you heard rap. But back then, there wasn’t so much hip hop because we didn’t have hip hop on wax, the deejays were considered the hip hop artists, but we did our thing on the club scene over disco records,” says Wells.

The distinction between what the deejays did at 371 and what Flash, Bam and Herc were doing is important. Both scenes were well aware of each other, however, they played in different markets. Flash, Bam and Herc played in parks, while Hollywood, Cheeba and Reggie Wells played in clubs for an older adult audience. What is important to point out as well is that the deejays did sometimes jam together.

“I knew about Red Alert and Kool Herc and the rest of the guys, but we played in a different market,” adds Wells.

Q: So, when was the first time you met Lovebug Starski?
A: I met Starski, when he and Hollywood did a concert at CCNY. Brainstorm, Evelyn “Champagne” King and Harold Melvin and the Blue Notes were on the bill that night, and Hollywood and Starski, they rocked the shyt out of that crowd. I mean they totally blew them away. That style of rappin’ where they were talking with the music, I can’t tell you who really originated that style, cause you hear that this one started it - and that one started it; but for me coming from downtown, that was the first time that I had ever seen anyone do the rappin with the turntables and the mike on that level.
Q: So Hollywood was the first person that you saw rap?
A: Yes

vid with him playing disco-r&b type records and funk (breaks)

 

[IllmaticDelta]

Great doc with interviews with many of the early pioneers in the 4 elements



These are the most important parts


23:30->49:43 Early Dj's ( pete dj jones, coke la rock, herc, maboya, flowers, disco king mario, baambatta, Kool Dj D)


1:15:45->1:18:40 The Roots of rapping (Last Poets, Gil Scott Heron, Radio DJ, Ali, PIgmeat Markham, Cab Calloway, Hustlers Convention)


1:14:43 (herc and coke la rock )


1:24:14 (description of the herc/pre-melle mel + cowboy style of mcing )

1:24:27 (description of the luvbug star ski/disco style of mcing)


1:24:44 - 1:25:11 (Grandmaster Caz on Dj Hollywood, Luv Bug Starski and Busy Bee styles of mcing. Basically the Rhyming Disco djs vs Bronx crowd dynamic)


1:27:00 (Bronx based, melle mel, cowboy and kid creole style of mcing)

 

[IllmaticDelta]

False.

Theres reggae songs from the 70s and 80s that had dudes rapping like it was 2003. They were THAT far ahead

No they didn't


You ever hear the Jamaican versions of Rappers Delight?

 

[Blackout]

Let that anger flow.

 

[K.O.N.Y]

Jamaican music is hugely influenced by R&B, I wouldn't debate that

In the same way rapping is hugely influenced by American jive talking, DJing is hugely influenced by disco Deejaying, Rap battling is hugely influenced by disco dj battling etc etc

Gotta give credit where credits due

fixed