how did young Mike get to the basket with such ease?
- Thread starter Devil Plisken…CMS
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Sunalmighty
Superstar
no one can get to the rim vs a zone?They ain’t play zone in the 80’s
The Devil's Advocate
Call me Dad
i know it wasn't at it's best... he was also 40 damn years old... and he could avg 22 pointsNo one ran a zone schemed around stopping Jordan in 2002 or 2003.
1. Zones were in their infancy in 2002, it wasn't even until the 2010s that teams really starting developing elite zone schemes (perhaps a bit earlier with the Spurs).
2. Jordan couldn't drive to the basket like that by 2002 anyway, so he wasn't the sort of scoring threat you schemed a zone for. Teams just gave him single-coverage.
3. Jordan's scoring in 2002 and 2003 was almost entirely based on an elite fadeaway (often out of the post) that had taken him a decade in the NBA to develop. He didn't have that shot as a young player.
Zones would have been a much more effective tool against young Jordan. They certainly wouldn't have stopped him, but they would have limited him a hell of a lot more than 6'3" White guys in single coverage.
yes it would slow him down... but you not gonna tell me these bum ass all stars we getting, flash in the pans, even perrenial, are doing anything young jordan couldn't be doing
i'm not seeing kyrie avg damn near 25 and then also tell me jordan wouldn't be able to do that... harden winning an MVP based on flopping to the hole or getting a wife open lane to it.... but Jordan wouldn't be getting the same calls and doing the same moves
lowry, derozen, pg, lillard, beal.... all these nikkas damn near scoring jordan numbers on the zone and man/zone defenses.. but prime jordan gonna be limited a lot more... nah
The Devil's Advocate
Call me Dad
this all sounds great... but y'all living off this narrative that jordan just went to the holeHe faced single coverage without a zone. When they threw a double-team at him, that guy had to run all the way over from another player, and no one else could shade off their man to cover the new opening.
Jordan would always get the ball with just one man on him (doubling a guy without the ball was illegal), so he could attack the single coverage immediately. If they tried to throw a double-team at him, that guy took time to get there as long as spacing was good, which led to open shooters and easy buckets.
Then take a look at the guys who were guarding him...overall shorter, less athletic, and less committed to defense than most players today.
But there are a LOT more guys who have the size and speed to at least stand a chance while defending him.
In Jordan's day, how many shooting guards over 6'4" were there? And how many were athletic and played good defense?
I mean, this is the era where Dan Majerle was on the All-Defensive team. He played hard on defense and all, but really? Dan Majerle?
Every once in a while Jordan would run into a Clyde Drexler, but that was the exception. Fat Lever, Sleepy Floyd, Ricky Pierce, Alvin Robertson, and Jeff Malone were elite shooting guards back then - they'd be considered undersized for the position today. In the playoffs MJ faced guys like (old) Jeff Hornacek, Kerry Kittles, Rex Chapman, John Starks, Voshon Lenard, Hersey Hawkins, Craig Ehlo, Terry Teagle, Paul Pressey, Dennis Johnson, Sidney Moncrief. The quick guys were too short, the tall guys were too slow or too skinny, and few of them had elite defensive chops.
I mean, in 1988, the guards playing in the All-Star Game on the East behind MJ and IT were Danny Ainge, Doc Rivers, and Maurice Cheeks. In 1989, the only two guards on the bench for the East in the All-Star game were Mark Price and Mark Jackson. You serious? It was NOT a good era for SG talent.
Put Jordan in an era with Kawhi, Jimmy Butler, PG13, Tony Allen, Marcus Smart, Klay, Iggy, Tatum, Brown, Josh Richardson, PJ Tucker, Oladipo, Danny Green, Andre Roberson, Jonathan Simmons, Robert Covington, Ben Simmons, Jrue Holiday, Michael Kidd-Gilchrist, Dejonte Murray...that's 20 guys right there who would blow most 1990s guards out of the water on defense. Didn't even mention guys like Josh Jackson, Andrew Wiggins, Shump, JR, KCP - even though they don't defend at the same level they still have so much more size and speed than the second-tier guards that Jordan faced.
And that's before you even take into account the zone schemes that would be used against him, and the far more mobile bigs that would be closing into the lane.
Jordan at least has to work harder in this era. There are just SO many more guys with the size and speed to actually stay in front of a 6'6" ultra-athletic guard instead of being a revolving door.
Here is MJ's shooting numbers from 90-92
Shot Chart
At Rim: 629/847 FG (74.3%)
In Paint (Overall): 786/1333 FG (59.0%)
Midrange: 793/1552 FG (51.1%)
3 Point: 93/243 FG (38.3%)
He was shooting from mid to outside at the same clip as he was coming to the hole... and this was before he perfected the fadeaway. so all that cutting him off to the hole, would result in him shooting 51.1% from the field anyway
Art Barr
INVADING SOHH CHAMPION
Dawg,..
you do not know at all what you are tallemboit.
Michael Jordan was the glove, that was his nickname given to him by his peers for his defensive ability.
You never saw air Jordan play past clips and then undermine what you saw, just because.
you did not watch any Jordan like that.
so why are you trying to speak like you did.
Art Barr
I think prime Jordan could average 25ppg in the current era. Who said he couldn't?
Your comparisons are off though. Lowry, PG, Beal? When the hell were those guys scoring Jordan numbers? You're talking about guys who average 20ppg.
Derozen has ONE season scoring over 23ppg, and then he gets locked up in the playoffs every. single. year. You sure you want to run with him?
Kyrie and Lillard are MUCH better three-point shooters than Jordan ever was, by a wide margin...and Kyrie still only has 2 seasons over 22.5ppg and none over 25. Lillard is barely higher.
Where'd you get those numbers? They're a complete lie.
Jordan shot 31% from three in 1991 and 27% from three in 1992.
Jordan only shot 51.9% total in 1992, so if he was shooting 51% from midrange than he must have been a Lonzo Ball-level finisher at the rim to not be hitting 60% overall.
White American All-stars in MJ's era:
Larry Bird (12-time)
Bill Laimbeer (4-time)
Jack Sikma (7-time)
Kevin McHale (7-time)
Tom Chambers (4-time)
Danny Ainge (1-time)
Mark Price (4-time)
John Stockton (10-time)
Chris Mullin (5-time)
Mark Eaton (1-time)
Jeff Hornacek (1-time)
Dan Majerle (3-time)
Christian Lattner (1-time)
Tom Gugliotta (1-time)
First foreign White player to make All-Star Game: Detlef Schrempf in 1993. The second one was Rik Smits in 1998. Until the 2000s there weren't really foreign stars like that.
White American All-stars in Lebron's era:
Kyle Korver (1-time injury replacement only)
Chris Kamen (1-time injury replacement only)
David Lee (2 times, once injury replacement)
Kevin Love (3 times, once injury replacement)
Gordon Hayward (1 time)
There's only 8 total All-star appearances by White American players in Lebron's entire era, and half of those were mediocre guys inserted as injury replacements.
Lebron's era has stronger Black talent and far stronger foreign talent than MJ's era ever had. And that's why White Americans aren't stars anymore.
Larry Bird (12-time)
Bill Laimbeer (4-time)
Jack Sikma (7-time)
Kevin McHale (7-time)
Tom Chambers (4-time)
Danny Ainge (1-time)
Mark Price (4-time)
John Stockton (10-time)
Chris Mullin (5-time)
Mark Eaton (1-time)
Jeff Hornacek (1-time)
Dan Majerle (3-time)
Christian Lattner (1-time)
Tom Gugliotta (1-time)
First foreign White player to make All-Star Game: Detlef Schrempf in 1993. The second one was Rik Smits in 1998. Until the 2000s there weren't really foreign stars like that.
White American All-stars in Lebron's era:
Kyle Korver (1-time injury replacement only)
Chris Kamen (1-time injury replacement only)
David Lee (2 times, once injury replacement)
Kevin Love (3 times, once injury replacement)
Gordon Hayward (1 time)
There's only 8 total All-star appearances by White American players in Lebron's entire era, and half of those were mediocre guys inserted as injury replacements.
Lebron's era has stronger Black talent and far stronger foreign talent than MJ's era ever had. And that's why White Americans aren't stars anymore.
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FunkDoc1112
Heavily Armed
Yeah, those numbers are pretty crazy, although IIRC the guy who put together the stats basically looked at all of the MJ games from that time that are available on the Internet, so less of his "off" shooting nights were available, naturally. His FG% over that sample was almost 55% whereas his actual FG% during that time was 53%
So someone just put together all of Jordan's classic games where he was on fire and then called those his shooting percentages.
This is the exact same thing people do when they usually overate earlier eras (cause all the old-timer games they've seen are the ones with the best players at the biggest moment), but now we've finally turned typical Coli bias into statistical form.
FunkDoc1112
Heavily Armed
Well he also included all of his games from the '92 and '93 playoffs too, which had some pretty rough shooting performances against the Cavs and Knicks. Although that kinda further strengthens my original point because those numbers would be even more inflated without those Knick series dragging them downSo someone just put together all of Jordan's classic games where he was on fire and then called those his shooting percentages.
This is the exact same thing people do when they usually overate earlier eras (cause all the old-timer games they've seen are the ones with the best players at the biggest moment), but now we've finally turned typical Coli bias into statistical form.
Charlie Broadway
Greg Ward Jr. SZN
Is saying Jordan only did what he did because he was physically superior to his peers really the card ppl want to play?
Might be the worst argument I've heard from Bron stans yet
Might be the worst argument I've heard from Bron stans yet
Nah, he just looks that way relative to the people of his day.Young mj would still be the most athletic player in the league today
guess they act like leading the league in steals 3 times and having back to back seasons of 100+blocks means you're overrated defensively. Oh and while he was winning scoring titles at that too
shyt at 40 he still had time to block and end Ron Mercer's career before it barely started
The Devil's Advocate
Call me Dad
jordan was routinely avg 29 and up... this entire thread is people saying the zone would have slowed or stopped him... so if we all think he could avg 25 in today's nba, we arguing about a total of 4 points or two shots...I think prime Jordan could average 25ppg in the current era. Who said he couldn't?
Your comparisons are off though. Lowry, PG, Beal? When the hell were those guys scoring Jordan numbers? You're talking about guys who average 20ppg.
Derozen has ONE season scoring over 23ppg, and then he gets locked up in the playoffs every. single. year. You sure you want to run with him?
Kyrie and Lillard are MUCH better three-point shooters than Jordan ever was, by a wide margin...and Kyrie still only has 2 seasons over 22.5ppg and none over 25. Lillard is barely higher.
Where'd you get those numbers? They're a complete lie.
Jordan shot 31% from three in 1991 and 27% from three in 1992.
Jordan only shot 51.9% total in 1992, so if he was shooting 51% from midrange than he must have been a Lonzo Ball-level finisher at the rim to not be hitting 60% overall.
meanwhile currently in the nba, we have current PG's, SG's, SF's that are around jordan's size or smaller... and they are CLEARLY nowhere close to being Jordan... and yet we still talking about prime MJ only being able to score 25 ppg
i'm simply saying hell fukking no... he could get those 4 points of the change of how they call fouls... he could get those 4 points off the fact you can't hand check nor put your elbow on him when he post up for the fadeaway
the "the zone would stop him" narrative is retarded when you got these fools like the one i named, leading teams in scoring and taking them to the ECF, with players about 3 levels lower than a prime Jordan... zone didn't stop them... it for damn sure ain't stopping no MJ
you're right about the stats though. somebody posted some advanced stats but i found the source and they was over 126 games, not full years
Art Barr
INVADING SOHH CHAMPION
More proof you don't know bball and you never saw mj really play.
You nikkaz fail because you don't even know the source material and have the internet at your disposal to get the answer.
yet try to do the dummies and act like the facts are not avaiLable.
when the facts are there at the touch of a finger tip, too.
Y'all new Gen dudes are so far from high quality the shyt a joke.
as you got the internet to ramp and get anything you lack, too.
Art Barr
