GetInTheTruck
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Which books are you referring to?
Genetic evidence suggests European migrants may have influenced the origins of India's caste system
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Which books are you referring to?
KenyaDoll
Demonic eyebrows & animal print
As I mentioned in my posted, the discussion was nuanced and that wasn't the only thing mentioned. They also discussed one of the things you mentioned, such as surname. I appreciate your response though given that you are in fact Indian (I study race and culture and often use qualitative interviewing).
I can't believe I'm posting this but @Camile.Bidan has helped me look at this different in some areas! I thought you were just on some bullshyt, which you are with a lot of things dealing with race, but I learned something from you. I just love knowledge and doesn't care where it comes from, as long as it has some truth to it that can be proven.
I will bow out though because the only thing I can put my belief in is the genetic study, and the archaeological video @Camile.Bidan posted. Other stuff helps like the language connection but, when we go into the religious stuff, I can't go there, it's too biased. Especially when the person arguing with me is from the higher caste in this debate, and their whole belief comes from books that can altered. They will always try to make things seem cool, even though most people who aren't in this class are trying to end this caste system like @GetInTheTruck (no dissing just telling it like I see it). Or they are are arguing about what they learned in school or read in a certain book, so they argue with you to prove their opinion is right, and just ignore the new info being discussed(others in this thread). This is why I don't get into arguments with christians or muslims because they only come at me with their council approved books, everything else they don't even pay any mind. Even their own common sense.
Like I stated earlier, I deal with finding answers to problems, its just who I am. If I need money, I find ways to get it. When I wanted to be the sex god, and make girls go crazy, I figured that out. When I want to be innovative with making music, I figure it out, and do it. When i wanted to learn how the body works, and to manipulate it to get what I wanted, I figured it out. With this religious, and history shyt, I started the journey, in 1997, and still have answers to questions. The shyt never stops. When I think I figured it out, new things are discovered, and I'm right back to square one. It's like that with the physical, and art sciences, but you still accomplish something, not the case with this religious, and history shyt. I'll just take my time with this. I do not want to turn into a simple minded a$$hole or crazy nut like soooo many people who I seen go this route. I want my sanity
I will bow out though because the only thing I can put my belief in is the genetic study, and the archaeological video @Camile.Bidan posted. Other stuff helps like the language connection but, when we go into the religious stuff, I can't go there, it's too biased. Especially when the person arguing with me is from the higher caste in this debate, and their whole belief comes from books that can altered. They will always try to make things seem cool, even though most people who aren't in this class are trying to end this caste system like @GetInTheTruck (no dissing just telling it like I see it). Or they are are arguing about what they learned in school or read in a certain book, so they argue with you to prove their opinion is right, and just ignore the new info being discussed(others in this thread). This is why I don't get into arguments with christians or muslims because they only come at me with their council approved books, everything else they don't even pay any mind. Even their own common sense.
Like I stated earlier, I deal with finding answers to problems, its just who I am. If I need money, I find ways to get it. When I wanted to be the sex god, and make girls go crazy, I figured that out. When I want to be innovative with making music, I figure it out, and do it. When i wanted to learn how the body works, and to manipulate it to get what I wanted, I figured it out. With this religious, and history shyt, I started the journey, in 1997, and still have answers to questions. The shyt never stops. When I think I figured it out, new things are discovered, and I'm right back to square one. It's like that with the physical, and art sciences, but you still accomplish something, not the case with this religious, and history shyt. I'll just take my time with this. I do not want to turn into a simple minded a$$hole or crazy nut like soooo many people who I seen go this route. I want my sanity
GetInTheTruck
Member
@lotty I don't know why you keep bringing up religion, I don't even consider myself a Hindu even though I happen to come from a brahmin family so 
with that.
You're bowing out now because you've realized you aren't really equipped to discuss a matter as complex as caste and genetics beyond posting articles you read online that you think support your worldview.
with that. You're bowing out now because you've realized you aren't really equipped to discuss a matter as complex as caste and genetics beyond posting articles you read online that you think support your worldview.
No, I told you why I'm bowing out. It's because @Camile.Bidan posted shyt that made me rethink what I was taught. My rethinking is not about IF aryans invaded india, and caused the caste system as we know it today. The rethinking is WHO the Aryans were and how they spread, and where they were from. You really think I'm bowing out because of you?@lotty I don't know why you keep bringing up religion, I don't even consider myself a Hindu even though I happen to come from a brahmin family so
You're bowing out now because you've realized you aren't really equipped to discuss a matter as complex as caste and genetics beyond posting articles you read online that you think support your worldview.
You know how many times I had to rethink my "worldview"? The shyt is tiring. YOU gave me a headache because you are intellecutally dishonest. I still can't believe you tried to tell me buddha was wearing a hat, like I'm fukking blind
I really don't want to end up like you. A fool who just goes by what he was taught and ignores everything unless it coincides with his beliefs. See the difference between me & you? A real lover of knowledge(me) and someone who just wants a circle jerk(you).Do you even know what religion does to people? You are telling me things you were taught from a RELIGIOUS TEXTS. That's like a Christian saying they aren't christian but, every time you talk to them about history they refer to what happened in the bible. And you JUST HAPPEN to come from a Brahmin family. That still effects the way you see things. Most white people don't want to hear about police brutality, slavery or Jim crow because their family most likely had something to do with it. The same thing with you and hindusim. Don't bullshyt yourself.
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@Camile.Bidan Hook me up with some more info like the archaeological video? Don't give me hour long videos though, I ain't got time to watch that shyt. Just short videos, and stuff I can read. I can't believe I'm going to you for this info but you know a little more then others on this so, give me what you got
GetInTheTruck
Member
No, I told you why I'm bowing out. It's because @Camile.Bidan posted shyt that made me rethink what I was taught. My rethinking is not about IF aryans invaded india, and caused the caste system as we know it today. The rethinking is WHO the Aryans were and how they spread, and where they were from. You really think I'm bowing out because of you?
Do you even know what religion does to people? You are telling me things you were taught from a RELIGIOUS TEXTS. That's like a Christian saying they aren't christian but, every time you talk to them about history they refer to what happened in the bible. And you JUST HAPPEN to come from a Brahmin family. That still effects the way you see things. Most white people don't want to hear about police brutality, slavery or Jim crow because their family most likely had something to do with it. The same thing with you and hindusim. Don't bullshyt yourself.
You're babbling man. And I've spoken about caste discrimination here before I never denied it existed, my only issue with you regarding this topic was your claim that caste was race-based. That's it.
I believe it is race based in it's ORIGINS. I said this since we started this conversation. The origins of it has effected what goes on to this day, but on the surface it's about profession. Notice I keep saying the same things but, for some reason you twist the way you say things thinking I'm going to give a different answer. Think what you want. Peace to you.
I'm looking at @Camile.Bidan now because he actually has info that has some type of credibility. That is what I'm about. Me, and you, can agree to disagree. You believe in religious teaching, I believe in what makes sense, and what can be proven. We are never going to agree because we have too much differences in how we think.
Camile.Bidan
Banned
No, I told you why I'm bowing out. It's because @Camile.Bidan posted shyt that made me rethink what I was taught. You know how many times I had to rethink my "worldview"? The shyt is tiring. YOU gave me a headache because you are intellecutally dishonest. I still can't believe you tried to tell me buddha was wearing a hat, like I'm fukking blind
Do you even know what religion does to people? You are telling me things you were taught from a RELIGIOUS TEXTS. That's like a Christian saying they aren't christian but, every time you talk to them about history they refer to what happened in the bible. And you JUST HAPPEN to come from a Brahmin family. That still effects the way you see things. Most white people don't want to hear about police brutality, slavery or Jim crow because their family most likely had something to do with it. The same thing with you and hindusim. Don't bullshyt yourself.
Back out because of what? You're right. indo-European did not originate in India.
I faced same arguments with South East Asians. They didn't want to believe that they were a mixed blood peoples of black and Asian, so they latched on to the South East Asian origin hypothesis. They used the same arguments-- Austronesian languages originated south east Asia, Oldest Y-DNA K was found in the Philippines therefore Asians ( and by implication Europeans and Indians also came from the south), and Polynesians were a transitional form between East Asians and the "original" black Asians.
It's uncomfortable for south East Asians to accept that they are indeed descendants of invaders who mixed with natives, and Northern Asians use that as a means to insult south East Asians. The SEAs have a biased against that so they create fallacious arguments
Now, of course genetics has proven that to be completely false. Austronesians came from the north. Polynesians are a mix of black and Asian so are South East Asians.
Indians of course don't want to accept that they are also a product of a similar process. I have met Indians from the deep southern regions, and I have seen 100s of pictures of the Andaman islanders. They were CLEARLY lots black people in India, and those people were being bred out long before the Britain showed up.
I know a lot of older punjabis because I have worked with them and had them as neighbors, and I have heard them insult southerners as being "too black", "too dark", "too weak" or "too ugly" on multiple occasions. There is definitely some sort of de jure segregation going out there.
Hit me off with that info man.
Let me ask you something. What do you feel about the statues of the Buddha with kinky hair?
Do you think those statues are referring to the original black southern asians? If so, do you think the story of Buddha originated with them, and over time the Northern indians took the story and changed it up, as well as the look of the Buddha like Europeans did with jesus? Or are the statues the Southeast Asian versions of buddha? When the study i posted showed most of the southern Indians, had dna more closely to the Asian Dna, that was big to me also as far as the story of Buddha, the way some built statues with how he looked, and other statues I seen of Southeast Asians with kinky hair that were old as shyt. Let me know what you think
I don't know if you read this but, check this article out. It goes along with what Michael Bradley was saying that the neanderthals may have bred with an unknown Asian form of man!
http://www.nature.com/news/mystery-humans-spiced-up-ancients-sex-lives-1.14196
"The ancient genomes, one from a Neanderthal and one from a member of an archaic human group called the Denisovans, were presented on 18 November at a meeting on ancient DNA at the Royal Society in London. The results suggest that interbreeding went on between the members of several ancient human-like groups in Europe and Asia more than 30,000 years ago, including an as-yet-unknown human ancestor from Asia."
"All modern humans whose ancestry originates outside of Africa owe about 2% of their genome to Neanderthals. Certain populations living in Oceania, such as Papua New Guineans and Australian Aboriginals, share about 4% of their DNA with Denisovans, members of a group named after a cave in the Altai Mountains in Siberia, Russia, where they were discovered. The cave contains remains deposited between 30,000 and 50,000 years ago."
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This an old study but most don't know about it but it helps prove the theory that europeans created the caste system as we kniw it today when they conquered northern india. People tried to say it was bullshyt but now we see it wasn't. They used religion to divide everyone and maintain power. Sounds familiar right. They may look different now but the power is still there.
http://www.genomenewsnetwork.org/articles/05_01/Indo-European.shtml
"Bamshad's team found that Y chromosomes from the Brahmin and Kshatriya closely resembled European Y chromosomes rather than Asian Y chromosomes. The Y chromosomes from the lower castes bore more similarities to the Asian Y chromosome. The mitochondrial DNA showed the same pattern.
The authors believe their results support the notion that Europeans who migrated into India between 3,000 and 8,000 years ago may have merged with or imposed their social structure on the native northern Indians and placed themselves into the highest castes.
Analysis of the paternally transmitted Y chromosome among Indians in general indicated that the Y chromosome had a more European flavor. Maternally inherited mitochondrial DNA among Indians is more Asian than European. This suggests that the Europeans who entered India were predominantly male."
@GetInTheTruck
Any student of history already knew this. Its confused indians like getinthetruck that likes to act as if the most racist system in the world (the caste system) is somehow based on some colorblind fallacy. When everyone knows india was colonized by the british who taught them everything they know about racism and classicism.
My man, this was about the history WAY before the brits came to india!
@Camile.Bidan Whats your feelings on this? I think I know already because you posted about this earlier but, I like to ask questions to pick people brains a part to see who I'm dealing with. I might have read you wrong. To me this theory makes more since then the the multiple migration out of africa theory.
http://atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/KL19Df03.html
"The HUGO Pan-Asian SNP Consortium, as the project is called, overturns accepted knowledge that multiple migrations of populations directly went to East Asian countries from Africa, nearly a hundred thousand years ago.
According to the new study, Dravidians - the race of people who inhabit south India, including Tamils - could be a common ancestral link to most modern-day Asians."
"But while the new HUGO study could support anthropological knowledge of Aryans invading India, the findings also say modern India shares a closer genetic ancestry with Europe than with Asia. "Most of the Indian populations showed evidence of shared ancestry with European populations," observed page four of the six-page report in Science.
"The current Indians received more genetic input from Aryan invasions which brought more Caucasian genes," says Dr Edison Liu, executive director at the Genome Institute of Singapore and president of HUGO. "So in fact, excluding modern-day Indians, there is clear indication that we are all genetically related in Asia."
Modern-day Indians, Liu says, would mean those in post-Aryan India. In effect, the new HUGO study could point to India having a large Eurasian population, like Russia.
"We have redefined the genetic history of Asian migration," declared Liu. "Previously, it was thought - because of archaeological, anthropological, and limited genetic data - that Asia was populated by two waves of migration. One wave was from Southeast Asia, called the Southern route, and the second from Central Asia, called the Northern route."
Liu informed Asia Times Online that the HUGO Pan-Asian SNP Consortium findings now point to a single wave of migration from Southeast Asia. "This places disparate ethnic groups like the Negritos [in the Philippines], Dayaks [in Borneo, Indonesia] etc. within the Asian fold," says Liu. "The reconstruction is out of Africa to India."
"So do Chinese have Indian ancestors? "It is probably more correct to say that Dravidians [in southern India] and Chinese had common ancestors, than to say that Chinese ancestors originated in India," said Liu, who was born in Hong Kong and emigrated to the United States in 1957.
"What we are seeing is the transit of our ancestors in their travels out of Africa through India and into Southeast Asia and North Asia," Liu explained. "Along the way, they deposited progeny that later expanded, or contracted."
http://atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/KL19Df03.html
"The HUGO Pan-Asian SNP Consortium, as the project is called, overturns accepted knowledge that multiple migrations of populations directly went to East Asian countries from Africa, nearly a hundred thousand years ago.
According to the new study, Dravidians - the race of people who inhabit south India, including Tamils - could be a common ancestral link to most modern-day Asians."
"But while the new HUGO study could support anthropological knowledge of Aryans invading India, the findings also say modern India shares a closer genetic ancestry with Europe than with Asia. "Most of the Indian populations showed evidence of shared ancestry with European populations," observed page four of the six-page report in Science.
"The current Indians received more genetic input from Aryan invasions which brought more Caucasian genes," says Dr Edison Liu, executive director at the Genome Institute of Singapore and president of HUGO. "So in fact, excluding modern-day Indians, there is clear indication that we are all genetically related in Asia."
Modern-day Indians, Liu says, would mean those in post-Aryan India. In effect, the new HUGO study could point to India having a large Eurasian population, like Russia.
"We have redefined the genetic history of Asian migration," declared Liu. "Previously, it was thought - because of archaeological, anthropological, and limited genetic data - that Asia was populated by two waves of migration. One wave was from Southeast Asia, called the Southern route, and the second from Central Asia, called the Northern route."
Liu informed Asia Times Online that the HUGO Pan-Asian SNP Consortium findings now point to a single wave of migration from Southeast Asia. "This places disparate ethnic groups like the Negritos [in the Philippines], Dayaks [in Borneo, Indonesia] etc. within the Asian fold," says Liu. "The reconstruction is out of Africa to India."
"So do Chinese have Indian ancestors? "It is probably more correct to say that Dravidians [in southern India] and Chinese had common ancestors, than to say that Chinese ancestors originated in India," said Liu, who was born in Hong Kong and emigrated to the United States in 1957.
"What we are seeing is the transit of our ancestors in their travels out of Africa through India and into Southeast Asia and North Asia," Liu explained. "Along the way, they deposited progeny that later expanded, or contracted."
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