Fetishzation & Exotization of US Creoles, Louisiana history & People

IllmaticDelta

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- Jazz being linked to Congo Square in New Orleans or Cuba



also, Buddy Bolden's roots were in Virginia



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jazz @ (his or her) - story: Buddy Bolden


white jazz historians were scrambling hard to turn him into a "Creole" so they could, in their twisted minds, make the claim he was heavily european, therefore europeans/whites have claims to jazz:mjlol:


The lengths many white jazz writers and even some latino critics will go to put their names into the origins of jazz

Alot of false info out there claiming this guy below was Mexican/Latino and using this false info as proof of latinos being Jazz founders:camby:


Dude was Creole of Color native to New Orleans whose fam migrated to mexico and then came back to New Orleans. Slick white/latino music critics tried to paint this dude as a Mexican to lay claims as Jazz being some sort mongrel music that comes from various nations:mjlol:

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Lorenzo Tio, the real facts!

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IllmaticDelta

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MYTH - A typical jazz history framework that cac's used as an attempt to claim Jazz was to state how mixed the Creoles were and that the non-creoles were dark-"pure" black. By highlighting the euro side of creoles they think they're moving Jazz's origins away from "blackness"


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this is also in part, why white jazz historians were/are so hung up on what Buddy Bolden was (Creole or non-Creole) and how dark he was since all the early Jazz guys, Creole and Non-Creole, said that w/o question, Bolden was the one who started Jazz


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Anyone who's seen pictures of the early figures of jazz in New Orleans knows this is straight BS. Just to show you how BS that narrative was/is, I'll highlight many of the players, both Creole and non-Creole to illustrate how there was no real difference in phenotypes.


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The John Robichaux Orchestra, 1896. Seated, left to right: Dee Dee Chandler (anglo-african), drums; Charles McCurdy (anglo african), clarinets; John Robichaux (franco-african), violin & leader, Wendell MacNeil (anglo african), violin. Standing, left to right: Batiste DeLisle (franco african), trombone; James Wilson (anglo african), cornet; James MacNeil (anglo african), cornet; Octave Gaspard (franco-african), string bass.



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Imperial Band circa 1908. From left to right: John McMurray (anglo-african), drums; George File (franco-african), trombone; James A. Palao(franco-african), violin; ''Big Eye'' Louis Nelson Delisle(franco african), clarinet; Rene Baptiste (franco-african), guitar; Manuel Perez (franco-african), cornet; Jimmy Brown (anglo african), bass.


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"Big Eye" Louis Nelson Delisle, and Freddie Keppard. (both are franco-african)


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^^buddy boldens son and albert nicholas (both anglo-african)




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(anglo-african)

William Manuel "Bill" Johnson (August 10, 1872 – December 3, 1972), was an American jazz musician, considered the father of the "slap" style of double bass playing.[2]

Johnson claimed to have started "slapping" the strings of his bass (a more vigorous technique than the classical pizzicato) after he accidentally broke his bow on the road with his band in northern Louisiana in the early 1910s. Other New Orleans string bass players picked up this style, and spread it across the country with the spread of New Orleans Jazz.[3][1]

Johnson was founder and manager of the first jazz band to leave New Orleans and tour widely in the 1910s, The Original Creole Orchestra.[1]

In Chicago in the early 1920s he assembled King Oliver's Creole Jazz Band, considered perhaps the best of the early ensemble style jazz bands. He taught younger Chicago musicians (including Milt Hinton) his "slap" style of string bass playing. He made many fine recordings in Chicago in the late 1920s.[3]

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(everybody in this picture was anglo-african except jelly morton who was franco-african, 3rd in from the left)
 

Sbp

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Just off top let me further explain this.

When I speak of creoles I'm talking about people with Afro-Louisianaian colonial heritage. As that was the original meaning. White Louisianians didn't adopt the term creole until AFTER the louisiana purchase to differentiate themselves from the white anglophone settlers from the "old US". Before that white louisianians simply referred to themselves as Acadian/Cajun, French, or Spanish/islenos. But, traditionally creole always referred to the people and culture of Afro-Louisianians to differentiate them from African born slaves. Hence why the language "louisiana creole" is the name given to that which developed by the black slaves in colonial louisiana, "plantation french" is the language of white french louisianians, and cajun is the language of cajuns. White french louisianians have historically refered to the louisiana creole language as "nyggur french", showing that there is a massive disconnect between them and louisiana (afro)creoles. For more info you should read Gwendolyn Midlo Hall's book "Africans in Colonial Louisiana". So, if we're making colonial louisiana the cut off point for creole heritage, then you can't refer to white louisianians as creole as that is a POST LA purchase phenomenon.
No breh there were hardly any cajuns in new Orleans at the time. They were mainly in the Lafayette area. White French and Spanish speakers in N.O. did call themselves Creole all it meant was your parents wede immigrants from Europe and your first language was french or Spanish but you were born in America. The Black freedmen who were mixed were called Gens De Couleur Libres. But you're right all of black people from down here trying to pretend that Creole is an entirely different race when its not to separate themselves from "regular " black people.
 

Supper

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Wanted to come back to this thread a little later but just to address this.

No breh there were hardly any cajuns in new Orleans at the time. They were mainly in the Lafayette area.


I didn't specify New Orleans when talking about Cajuns. Reread my post.

White Louisianians didn't adopt the term creole until AFTER the louisiana purchase to differentiate themselves from the white anglophone settlers from the "old US". Before that white louisianians simply referred to themselves as Acadian/Cajun, French, or Spanish/islenos.

I'm well aware that Cajun's ancestors by and large settled in Rural SW Louisiana, not new orleans.


White French and Spanish speakers in N.O. did call themselves Creole all it meant was your parents wede immigrants from Europe and your first language was french or Spanish but you were born in America.

Not during the colonial era, they didn't. "Creole" was a slave term used to differentiate native born Africans from people of African descent born in the colonies. The white French and Spanish elite in Louisiana, particularly in the pointee coupe parish of Louisiana and downtown neighborhood of New Orleans, adopted the term after the louisiana purchase to distinguish themselves from Anglo white settlers from the "old US".

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And they eventually tried to appropriate the term exclusively for themselves.


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Again, see gwendolyn midlo hall's "africans in colonial louisiana".



But you're right all of black people from down here trying to pretend that Creole is an entirely different race when its not to separate themselves from "regular " black people.

(Afro)Creoles are sub group of the greater African-American ethnicity. They fit every definition. There's no two ways around that.
 
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Sbp

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Wanted to come back to this thread a little later but just to address this.




I didn't specify New Orleans when talking about Cajuns. Reread my post.



I'm well aware that Cajun's ancestors by and large settled in Rural SW Louisiana, not new orleans.




Not, during the colonial era they didn't. "Creole" was a slave term used to differentiate native born Africans from people of African descent born in the colonies. The white French and Spanish elite in Louisiana, particularly in the pointee coupe neighborhood of New Orleans, adopted the term after the louisiana purchase to distinguish themselves from Anglo white settlers from the "old US".

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And they eventually tried to appropriate the term exclusively for themselves.


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Again, see gwendolyn midlo hall's "africans in colonial louisiana".





(Afro)Creoles are sub group of the greater African-American ethnicity. They fit every definition. There's no two ways around that.
I got sone stuff stating different a out white creoles i'll post it later Great thread btw.
 

Sbp

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creole in the louisiana context did mean anyone with roots going back to the spanish french people


BUT!!!


1)when jim crow came through, WHITE CREOLES didn't wan't to be confused with CREOLES OF COLOR aka gens de couleur libres (these are the ones of african descent, dark and/or light skinned) so over time, they stopped calling themselves "Creole". Today, Creole is synonymous with the ones of African descent. The white creoles just blended into white america and cajuns.


2) light skinned creoles of color were mad color struck even against darker creoles of color and they were the ones who created/perpetuated that myth that Creoles/true Creoles were light skinned






she means franco-african (creole) + anglo-african (non-creole, afram)





because of the 3 tier caste system (black, white and mixed) in Louisiana before the Anglos (2 tier caste system, only black and white) took over had the Creoles of Color acting:mjpls:similar to what you get in Latin America:heh:. Jim Crow came through:ufdup:and the rest is history.
Bingo I grew up here and trust me they're still color struck. Funny thing is I rarely heard anybody referring to themselves as Creole back in the day. Red , Lightskin High Yella. I guess Creole wasn't chic at the time.
 

Geode

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Excellent thread.

I like the fact that all these misconceptions are being cleared up, especially that creoles are some super-elite class as opposed to a distinct AA group, which can be found elsewhere in the AA culture.

Also good looks on the Sojourner truth info. I think it was fairly recently that I learned about her dutch accent. As a NYer, I tend to forget that the dutch hung around for a good while after the British takeover.
 

Juneya

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Dude, this was your quote





military bands doesn't have shyt to do with african hand drums




they didn't have to sneak to play military style drums is the point you're missing

I read the book. Great book.
You saying its a myth that drums only existed in congo square? if so, you right. Just because they were outlawed doesn't mean they didnt exist. Im wrong.
 
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IllmaticDelta

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MYTH - Brass band, as far as aframs go was strictly a New Orleans phenomena.

In truth, black brass bands were found all over the USA and were heavily documented since the early 1800s and those same traditions that would eventually lead to Jazz, first lead to to ragtime bands and the seeds of HBCU bands.

As with other forms of bands in the US, black marching bands formed as part of the military with the earliest musicians being fifers, drummers, trumpeters and pipers in Colonial-era militias. Historians believe that nearly 5,000 Blacks were integrated in the pre-revolutionary war military as musicians, as many units banned black, mulattos, or native Americans in the military from bearing arms. Many also say that the military band members of the 19th century received most of their training and instruments during the War of 1812 with many all-black brass bands arising after the war in cities such as New Orleans, Philadelphia, and New York. This included a band led by Francis "Frank" Johnson who incorporated keyed and valved brass instruments to become one of the earliest, most popular brass bands in the country.

By 1861, at the beginning of the Civil War, brass instruments became a mainstay in Military bands. In the Union Army, all Black regimens acquired instruments and each had its own band which helped recruit through parades and public appearances. By the end of the Civil War, there were 185,000 black men inducted into the army as "United States Colored Troops". Many would stay on after the war to form the first black units, while others went on to play in civilian bands. Marching Bands had become integrated into the American Society by the late 19th century, including the first permanent black Minstrel troupes with one led by W.C. Handy. These troupes would attract crowds to their shows with an elaborate parade lead by a four horse carriage and a drum major. But these were no ordinary drum majors keeping time for the band, they were performers, artists with a baton. These black Minstrel groups helped disseminate African-American styles of music and dance across the country.

Known as the "Golden Age of the American Brass Band, 1880-1910 saw approximately 10,000 bands in the US, with many of them being Marching Bands. This was also the case in the African-American Community, especially in New Orleans, where black bands helped to raise money for numerous causes. Additionally, there was a rise in rural, self-taught bands that were strongly rooted in gospel and secular music- they basically replaced the voice using their instruments. Much of the music of these bands was characterized by offbeat phasing, polyrhythms, melodies and countermelody, syncopation and call-and-response patterns; all of which are hallmarks of other forms of African-American vernacular music. By the turn of the century, these bands were firmly established in New Orleans, the birthplace of jazz and the blues.

During World War I, many black military units again had military bands, with one of the most famous being the "Harlem Hellfighters" who played in Europe, specifically in the Theatre des Champs-Elysess in Paris. Upon their return to the US in 1919, they marched down Fifth Avenue in New York and are written to have been "the best military band in the world." Many of these musicians went on to join the faculty of the budding music departments of black college and universities. These Universities came about in 1862 after the Land-Grant Act (Morrill Act) enacted by Congress provided each state 30,000 acres of federal lands that could be sold in order to finance schools for African-Americans to teach primarily agriculture and mechanical arts. The second Land Grant Act in 1890 specifically called for equal distribution of higher education fund which lead to 17 black land-grant colleges being established in the Southern and border states between 1880 and 1899. Bands were initially formed at these historically black colleges to help raise money. It is thought that the earliest HBCU band started at Tuskegee Normal School (now Tuskegee University), the Tuskegee Normal School Brass Band. Other early black collegiate bands included Alabama State, Florida A&M, and Kentucky State.

HBCU Bands: A History



1894 in Pennslyvania

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1891 in Detroit


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which leads me to



The orphanage was established in Charleston in 1891 by the Rev. Daniel Jenkins, an African American Baptist minister, who founded it for black children with city assistance. More than 500 lived there by 1896. Its band played concerts across the US and Europe to help fund the orphanage, it was prominent in early jazz history. Alumni played for Duke Ellington, Count Basie and others. Jenkins Orphanage moved here in 1937 but its historic buildings burned in the 1980s. Presently, the organization is actively in business as the Daniel Joseph Jenkins Institute for Children. The state marker is located at the entrance.

Jenkins Orphanage - The Green Book of South Carolina


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this the same band that brought the world the "Charleston" dance craze


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....this is the same motif the music historians/creole fetishist, keep trying to force the misnomer, "latin tinge" description on

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Asicz

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This thread is for history, Culture, Race,photos, info etc in Louisiana.
 
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