Fetishzation & Exotization of US Creoles, Louisiana history & People

[AlainLocke]

Creole in the Louisiana sense of the word just means you have roots in the region dating back to the French/Spanish era.

Yeah, I get that now.

I never heard of this argument to make Louisiana Creoles a special ethnic group though. Nor have I heard about Louisiana Creoles being represented in Louisiana in the modern day as a distinct group.

 

[IllmaticDelta]

Yeah, I get that now.

I never heard of this argument to make Louisiana Creoles a special ethnic group though. Nor have I heard about Louisiana Creoles being represented in Louisiana.

They (OG stock) were more like a sub-group the same way you have/had Gullah-Geeches, Afro-Dutch, "Black Indians" etc..all as distinct subsets of Afram history-identity. The Haitians that came in were another group but they blended into a population/culture that already existed and over time, their "foreignness" got blended out.

 

[Supper]

- Jazz being linked to Congo Square in New Orleans or Cuba .​

​

As for Jazz music. While yes, it was born in New Orleans. It's origins have nothing to do with Congo Square other being in the same city.

@IllmaticDelta rippin this from you, breh.

So, what was unique about New Orleans that lead to the birth of Jazz?

Answer: Brass marching bands

African-Americans have been playing in marching bands since the 18th century. They became a common way for AAs to raise money for benevolent/social aid/pleasure societies and black colleges(drumline anyone?).

New Orleans had the most AA benevolent societies in the south during the post reconstruction era. And when the brass marching band movement began it hit hardest in New Orleans, when it's leader, Patrick S. Gilmore, performed his “Grand National Concert” in New Orleans, on March 4, 1864.

These brass bands became a way for black New Orleanians to raise money for their benevolent societies. The oldest African-American benevolent society in New Orleans, Young Men’s Olympian Jr, still to this day host annual second line parades.





It was the combination of the high amount of brass bands, with folk ragtime, and blues(as well as black church spirituals) music that set New Orleans apart as a breeding ground for the evolution of Jazz music. It has nothing to do with Congo square or some mythical caribbean influence. Budden bolden said to be the father of Jazz was a bluesman that played in a brass band, himself.


And of course second lining and 'jazz funerals'(which actually predate jazz) come from this brass band tradition as well.

For instance NYC and any other city where AA military personal were stationed also had the ingredients for jazz music also. Which is why James Resee Europe and his "Harlem Hellfighters" corps also produced music that a lot of scholars have trouble classifying because it's very "Jazz like" but is contemporary or predates the earliest "dixie land" ensembles in New Orleans. In a similar way as you had the Watts Prophets and Pigmeat Markham producing music that was very "Hip Hop like", that predate or was contemporary to the birth of Hip Hop in the Bronx, NY, but lacked certain aspects such as the djing style. As it was the large among of "ghetto" outdoors disco djs that made NYC a unique breeding ground for Hip Hop, not any Jamaican influence.

Blues, Ragtime, and Spirituals were already ubiquitous in AA musical culture at that point. The only thing that set NO apart was it's the high amount of brass band ensembles. But, large congregations of AA military persons also had all of these traits as well


James Reese Europe's Proto-Jazz
Harlem's James Reese Europe Invented Jazz, 1881 – 1919



So, again improvised folk rag, blues, spirituals, and march/brass bands = Jazz



What about the Cuban influence?

A complete misnomer. The rhythm that people often ascribe to in Jazz as being of Cuban origin is actually of Central African origin and a motif used across various African-American genres, folk songs, and dances all across the US, not just new orleans. Afr'Ams know it as the hambone, while Cubans know it as the Habenera, and use it as the foundation of basically all of their music, while Afr'Ams only use it as a decorative motif in most genres for the most part. The person, Jelly Roll Morton, who's quote they use to link it with Cuba didn't even make the connection himself and simply called it the "spanish tinge", again, because of it's common use in Latino music, not nesessarily citing "spanish" music as an origin.. Most other early AA musicians like Bo diddley, Red Saunders, and James P Johnson attest that they heard it from various African American folk songs and dances.

But, people are so desperate to draw a connection between Jazz and the Caribbean they come up with shyt like this:

- Mississippi artist like Bo diddley were known for playing the hambone rhythm

- AAs all the way in south carolina have folk songs and dances using the same rhythm

- Buddy Bolden the non-creole protestant bluesman who played in a brass marching band who's credited for developing jazz music in New Orleans played songs on the rhythm as well
- Creole exoticist logic: The rhythm must come from the Cuban habenera(cuban name for the hambone) to new orleans congo square and then to jazz music.

​

 

[IllmaticDelta]

​

As for Jazz music. While yes, it was born in New Orleans. It's origins have nothing to do with Congo Square other being in the same city.

@IllmaticDelta rippin this from you, breh.

So, what was unique about New Orleans that lead to the birth of Jazz?

Budden bolden said to be the father of Jazz was a bluesman that played in a brass band, himself.

- Buddy Bolden the non-creole protestant bluesman who played in a brass marching band who's credited for developing jazz music in New Orleans played songs on the rhythm as well
- Creole exoticist logic- The rhythm must come from the Cuban habenera(cuban name for the hambone) to new orleans congo square and then to jazz music.

​

also, Buddy Bolden's roots were in Virginia

Many early jazz musicians credited Bolden and the members of his band with being the originators of what came to be known as "jazz", though the term was not in common musical use until after the era of Bolden's prominence. At least one writer has labeled him the father of jazz.[8] He is credited with creating a looser, more improvised version of ragtime and adding blues to it; Bolden's band was said to be the first to have brass instruments play the blues. He was also said to have taken ideas from gospel music heard in uptown African-American Baptist churches.

Instead of imitating other cornetists, Bolden played music he heard "by ear" and adapted it to his horn. In doing so, he created an exciting and novel fusion of ragtime, black sacred music, marching-band music, and rural blues. He rearranged the typical New Orleans dance band of the time to better accommodate the blues; string instruments became the rhythm section, and the front-line instruments were clarinets, trombones, and Bolden's cornet. Bolden was known for his powerful, loud, "wide open" playing style.[6] Joe "King" Oliver, Freddie Keppard, Bunk Johnson, and other early New Orleans jazz musicians were directly inspired by his playing.

three of those questions relate to more finite information about Buddy’s ancestors: where they were born, were they born into slavery, and how much African blood they carried.

Many musicians and writers (none of whom had ever seen Bolden or heard him play) described Buddy Bolden as a black Baptist from Uptown New Orleans. Jelly Roll Morton was, without doubt, the best and most accurate chronicler of musicians, sports, and events in New Orleans in the early years of the twentieth century, and, fortunately for us, his recollections were documented by the late Alan Lomax for the Archive of American Folk Song at the Library of Congress in Washington D. C. In response to a question by Lomax whether Buddy Bolden was a Negro and dark, Jelly Roll had this to say:

“Buddy Bolden was a New Orleans boy . . . as far as I know. . . . He was a Negro, yes. Right in New Orleans. . . . No, no . . . he was light complected. He was what you call a light brown skin boy.” [AFS 1658-B]

Don Marquis discovered that Buddy was born in New Orleans on 6th September 1877 as Charles Bolden, the son of Westmore Bolden and Alice Harris. As is the case of many children born in 19th century New Orleans, whether black or white, there are no official birth records for Bolden. Details of his birth were recorded on 7th March 1884 in the Baptismal Register of the First Street Baptist Church, which was also known as the St. John the Fourth Baptist Church, in uptown New Orleans.

Buddy’s father, Westmore Bolden, was the son of Gustave Bolden and Frances Smith. On the strength of a rather peculiar statement on Gustave Bolden’s death certificate issued in the name of “Augustus Bolen” on 4th August 1866 that the deceased was “a native of the United State of Louisiana,” Don Marquis incorrectly assumed that Gustave Bolden was born in Louisiana. In actual fact, both Gustave and his wife were born in the state of Virginia. Their three children, however, were born in Louisiana but not in New Orleans.

jazz @ (his or her) - story: Buddy Bolden


white jazz historians were scrambling hard to turn him into a "Creole" so they could, in their twisted minds, make the claim he was heavily european, therefore europeans/whites have claims to jazz

 

[AlainLocke]

​

As for Jazz music. While yes, it was born in New Orleans. It's origins have nothing to do with Congo Square other being in the same city.

@IllmaticDelta rippin this from you, breh.

So, what was unique about New Orleans that lead to the birth of Jazz?

Answer: Brass marching bands

African-Americans have been playing in marching bands since the 18th century. They became a common for AAs to raise money for benevolent/social aid/pleasure societies and black colleges(drumline anyone?).

New Orleans had the most AA benevolent societies in the south during the post reconstruction era. And when the brass marching band movement began it hit hardest in New Orleans, when it's leader, Patrick S. Gilmore, performed his “Grand National Concert” in New Orleans, on March 4, 1864.

These brass bands became a way for black New Orleanians to raise money for their benevolent societies. The oldest African-American benevolent society in New Orleans, Young Men’s Olympian Jr, still to this day host annual second line parades.





It's when you combine the high amount of brass bands, with folk ragtime, and blues(as well as black church spirituals) music that set New Orleans apart as a breeding ground for the evolution of Jazz music. It has nothing to do with Congo square or some mythical caribbean influence. Budden bolden said to be the father of Jazz was a bluesman that played in a brass band, himself.


And of course second lining and 'jazz funerals'(which actually predate jazz) come from this brass band tradition as well.

For instance NYC and any other city where AA military personal were stationed also had the ingredients for jazz music also stationed also. Which is why James Resee Europe and his "Harlem Hellfighters" corps also produced music that a lot of scholars have trouble classifying because it's very "Jazz like" but is contemporary or predates the earliest "dixie land" ensembles in New Orleans. In a similar way as you had the Watts Prophets and Pigmeat Markham producing music that was very "Hip Hop like", that predate or was contemporary to the birth of Hip Hop in the Bronx, NY, but lacked certain aspects such as the djing style. As it was the large among of "ghetto" outdoors disco djs that made NYC a unique breeding ground for Hip Hop, not any Jamaican influence.

Blues, Ragtime, and Spirituals were already ubiquitous in AA musical culture at that point. The only thing that set NO apart was it's the high amount of brass band ensembles. But, large congregations of AA military persons also had all of these traits as well


James Reese Europe's Proto-Jazz
Harlem's James Reese Europe Invented Jazz, 1881 – 1919



So, again improvised folk rag, blues, spirituals, and march/brass bands = Jazz



What about the Cuban influence?

A complete misnomer. The rhythm that people often ascribe to in Jazz as being of Cuban origin is actually of Central African origin and a motif used across various African-American genres, folk songs, and dances all across the US, not just new orleans. Afr'Ams know it as the hambone, while Cubans know it as the Habenera, and use it as the foundation of basically all of their music, while Afr'Ams only use it as a decorative motif in most genres for the most part. The person, Jelly Roll Morton, who's quote they use to link it with Cuba didn't even make the connection himself and simply called it the "spanish tinge", again, because of it's common use in Latino music, not nesessarily citing "spanish" music as an origin.. Most other early AA musicians like Bo diddley, Red Saunders, and James P Johnson attest that they heard it from various African American folk songs and dances.

But, people are so desperate to draw a connection between Jazz and the Caribbean they come up with shyt like this:

- Mississippi artist like Bo diddley were known for playing the hambone rhythm

- AAs all the way in south carolina have folk songs and dances using the same rhythm

- Buddy Bolden the non-creole protestant bluesman who played in a brass marching band who's credited for developing jazz music in New Orleans played songs on the rhythm as well
- Creole exoticist logic: The rhythm must come from the Cuban habenera(cuban name for the hambone) to new orleans congo square and then to jazz music.

​

Bro what book is that quote from. I like to collect books such as those.

And thanks for creating this thread.

 

[Kasgoinjail]

Insightful

I did watch a video on here distinguishing creole/Cajun

Prior I thought Creole was a language/dialect as it’s spoken all over, from Dominica to Benin

 

[xoxodede]

@Supper Can you explain the Free People of Color - "gens de couleur libres" -- and if there was any influence or how many think they are the face of "Creole" culture.

 

[AlainLocke]

@Supper Can you explain the Free People of Color - "gens de couleur libres" -- and if there was any influence or how many think they are the face of "Creole" culture.

Just to highlight how this Free People of Color history and influence on me when doing some family research and how many people think of them as the face of Creole.

My great grandfather was a very light skinned man from Louisiana and his side of the family look like White people and honesty, probably are just White people with some Black in them. I thought they were Creole and my grandma and uncle was the "Black" kids that nobody wanted because my great grand father left and went and had a whole another family.

When I did my research cursory research back in the day, Creole did mean anybody that was from Louisiana's French and Spanish colonial period but now that I think about it - never saw dark skin people presented as Creole when I did my research. It was always White people and then the mixed Blacks. I am talking about the historical pictures. It was always presented like a mixed Black and French and Spanish thing.

Like my grandma and my great grandmother probably are Louisiana Creole but it was never expressed to me. I don't think it was even expressed to them.

Now I am beginning to understand what this thread is about because even in my own mind, when I went to the family reunion in Louisiana the light skinned family, I thought was Creole and the rest of us were just Black.

Even Formation, when you "mix that Negro with that Creole you get a Texas Bama"

Or when she had that Olay commercial and it called her Creole, Native American and Black.

The history of the Free People of Color did a number on Louisiana Creoles because when people hear about Creole in everyday terms, they think about a mixture of people or languages.


This thread was very much needed.

I am gonna have to ask my mom how far back her peoples go in Louisiana.

 

[IllmaticDelta]

Just to highlight how this Free People of Color history and influence on me when doing some family research and how many people think of them as the face of Creole.

My great grandfather was a very light skinned man from Louisiana and his side of the family look like White people and honesty, probably are just White people with some Black in them. I thought they were Creole and my grandma and uncle was the "Black" kids that nobody wanted because my great grand father left and went and had a whole another family.

When I did my research cursory research back in the day, Creole did mean anybody that was from Louisiana's French and Spanish colonial period but now that I think about it - never saw dark skin people presented as Creole when I did my research. It was always White people and then the mixed Blacks. I am talking about the historical pictures. It was always presented like a mixed Black and French and Spanish thing.

Like my grandma and my great grandmother probably are Louisiana Creole but it was never expressed to me. I don't think it was even expressed to them.

Now I am beginning to understand what this thread is about because even in my own mind, when I went to the family reunion in Louisiana the light skinned family, I thought was Creole and the rest of us were just Black.

creole in the louisiana context did mean anyone with roots going back to the spanish french people


BUT!!!


1)when jim crow came through, WHITE CREOLES didn't wan't to be confused with CREOLES OF COLOR aka gens de couleur libres (these are the ones of african descent, dark and/or light skinned) so over time, they stopped calling themselves "Creole". Today, Creole is synonymous with the ones of African descent. The white creoles just blended into white america and cajuns.


2) light skinned creoles of color were mad color struck even against darker creoles of color and they were the ones who created/perpetuated that myth that Creoles/true Creoles were light skinned

Even Formation, when you "mix that Negro with that Creole you get a Texas Bama"

Or when she had that Olay commercial and it called her Creole, Native American and Black.

she means franco-african (creole) + anglo-african (non-creole, afram)

The history of the Free People of Color did a number on Louisiana Creoles because when people hear about Creole in everyday terms, they think about a mixture of people or languages.


This thread was very much needed.

I am gonna have to ask my mom how far back her peoples go in Louisiana.

because of the 3 tier caste system (black, white and mixed) in Louisiana before the Anglos (2 tier caste system, only black and white) took over had the Creoles of Color actingsimilar to what you get in Latin America. Jim Crow came throughand the rest is history.

 

[AlainLocke]

creole in the louisiana context did mean anyone with roots going back to the spanish french people


BUT!!!


1)when jim crow came through, WHITE CREOLES didn't wan't to be confused with CREOLES OF COLOR aka gens de couleur libres (these are the ones of african descent, dark and/or light skinned) so over time, they stopped calling themselves "Creole". Today, Creole is synonymous with the ones of African descent. The white creoles just blended into white america and cajuns.


2) light skinned creoles of color were mad color struck even against darker creoles of color and they were the ones who created/perpetuated that myth that Creoles/true Creoles were light skinned






she means franco-african (creole) + anglo-african (non-creole, afram)





because of the 3 tier caste system (black, white and mixed) in Louisiana before the Anglos (2 tier caste system, only black and white) took over had the Creoles of Color actingsimilar to what you get in Latin America. Jim Crow came throughand the rest is history.

I figured that French Louisiana was structured like Latin America just off of the Haitian Revolution and the Mulattoes doing a lot of and ultimately being like when the revolution kicked off.

The French and Spanish were more lenient in ways that Anglos weren't.

I need to do more research, perhaps there are less romantic sources that just give it to you straight without all the racial mixing and cultural diffusion and just about the lives of Louisiana Creole people.

 

[IllmaticDelta]

I figured that French Louisiana was structured like Latin America just off of the Haitian Revolution and the Mulattoes doing a lot of and ultimately being like when the revolution kicked off.

The French and Spanish were more lenient in ways that Anglos weren't.

I need to do more research, perhaps there are less romantic sources that just give it to you straight without all the racial mixing and cultural diffusion and just about the lives of Louisiana Creole people.

french and iberian colorlines in the americas were 3 tier caste systems that produced alot oftypes when it came to "blackness"

USA anglos basically went by a hard 2 tier system with only slight wiggle room if you were more like an octaroon

 

[AlainLocke]

french and iberian colorlines in the americas were 3 tier caste systems that produced alot oftypes when it came to "blackness"

USA anglos basically went by a hard 2 tier system with only slight wiggle room if you were more like an octaroon

What book is that from?

And have you ever read the Souls of Mixed Folks?

 

[Supper]

- Southern Louisiana having a "strong" connection to the Caribbean

​

​

The slave trade to French Louisiana was for the most part not modeled after and connected at all to the slave trade to french caribbean islands like St. Domingue. In fact trade in general between Louisiana and the Caribbean was highly restricted as to not allow the poor louisiana colony to be economically muscled out by the wealthy caribbean colonies, and slaves from the french caribbean were EXPLICITLY BANNED from entering louisiana due to their "bad nature"(something you caribbeans out there can take pride in instead of using louisiana creoles to appropriate AA culture and history), and louisiana slave traders were ordered to obtain slaves directly from Africa.

The few thousands haitians who migrated to Louisiana in the early 19th century were mostly white and mulatto, not black, migrated from Cuba, and many of whom were not permanent & returned to the Caribbean, espeically at the turn of the US civil war.

 

[Supper]

french and iberian colorlines in the americas were 3 tier caste systems that produced alot oftypes when it came to "blackness"

USA anglos basically went by a hard 2 tier system with only slight wiggle room if you were more like an octaroon

Ehh, the more I look into it I think the 2 vs 3 tiered caste system was more of a distinction between North & Upper South vs Deep South. Deep southern cities like Charleston & Savannah absolutely did have large free mulatto populations that were very much distinct from even the free black-black community just like New Orleans.

For the longest time the deep south in general rejected the one drop rule, because the one drop rule was originally a NORTHERN concept that later spread to the upper south, alien to the deep south. Lets not forget that many of the "free people of color" in New Orleans had origins in South Carolina, not colonial louisiana.

Most families ancestral to the Louisiana Redbones came from South Carolina (where they were at times classified in some census records as "other free persons")

Redbone (ethnicity) - Wikipedia

But, I will concede that miscegenation on average was more common in colonial Louisiana than other parts of the deep south(upper south had even more miscegenation). But, that was only in practice as it was still illegal in colonial LA(again, see louisiana code noir 1724), it was just less enforced.

 

[Cadillac]

Classic thread already.

saving it to throw at a nikkas face when he saying something stupid on this topic