Fetishzation & Exotization of US Creoles, Louisiana history & People

[IllmaticDelta]

Ehh, the more I look into it I think the 2 vs 3 tiered caste system was more of a distinction between North & Upper South vs Deep South. Deep southern cities like Charleston & Savannah absolutely did have large free mulatto populations that were very much distinct from even the free black-black community just like New Orleans.



For the longest time the deep south in general rejected the one drop rule, because the one drop rule was originally a NORTHERN concept that later spread to the upper south, alien to the deep south. Lets not forget that many of the "free people of color" in New Orleans had origins in South Carolina, not colonial louisiana.


Redbone (ethnicity) - Wikipedia

But, I will concede that miscegenation on average was more common in colonial Louisiana than other parts of the deep south(upper south had even more miscegenation). But, that was only in practice as it was still illegal in colonial LA(again, see louisiana code noir 1724), it was just less enforced.

Yeah, they did early on but they started switching up before New orleans did

Spoiler

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That label has been the lone constant in an ever-evolving checklist of identities that reflect the changing demographics of this country — and the changing language the government has used to define it. In 1790, the three categories available were "free white females and males," "all other free persons" and "slaves." By 1830, that last category had splintered into "slaves" and "free colored persons." By 1890, the census separately counted blacks — now all legally free — as "blacks," "mulattos," "quadroons" and "octoroons."

Blacks, like whites, are the only other group continuously identified by the census since 1790, although the language used to refer to blacks has changed in ways the Census Bureau is surely not proud of today. In the second half of the 19th century, census data helped drive scientific theories of race that were used at the time to justify discrimination. That's why the census added "quadroons" and "octoroons" as categories in 1890. These were the instructions given that year to enumerators:

Write white, black, mulatto, quadroon, octoroon, Chinese, Japanese, or Indian, according to the color or race of the person enumerated. Be particularly careful to distinguish between blacks, mulattoes, quadroons, and octoroons. The word 'black' should be used to describe those persons who have three-fourths or more black blood; 'mulatto,' those persons who have from three-eighths to five-eighths black blood; 'quadroon,' those persons who have one-fourth black blood; and 'octoroons,' those persons who have one-eighth or any trace of black blood.

The term "mulatto" didn't vanish entirely from the census until 1930. (aka when the real one drop rule took over)

 

[GoAggieGo.]

Mane, the knowledge being kicked in here.

@Supper and @IllmaticDelta thank you brehs! I didn’t know any of this. I’ve probably been to New Orleans thousands of times, and Cajun/creole strongholds like Lafayette and St Charles quiet a bit, but never knew this detailed history.

It also makes sense why so many that I knew from Biloxi and Gulfport, Miss sounded and acted just like those from southern Louisiana.

This whole Ados/Afram journey has been a bumpy road, but I’m learning a lot about my ethnic group and look forward to learning more. Thank y’all! Classic thread.

 

[IllmaticDelta]

MYTH- NEW ORLEANS IS DIFFERENT FROM OTHER BLACK AREAS OF THE SOUTH BECAUSE OF IT'S CREOLE CATHOLIC CHURCH INFLUENCES

If New Orleans had more Protestant cultural influences, then the expressions of that culture would be more similar to African Americans in other states. I believe it’s not. I believe the uniqueness of New Orleans is due to the influences of several different cultures, with each culture exerting influence at different parts of the city’s history.

repost

Black New Orleans Catholics Already Incorporate Culture Into Worship

Black catholics in New Orleans are heavily influenced by southern Afram protestant traditions. Nothing "french" about them.

facts





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this sure sounds alot like typcial catholic church music this creole man is giving a history lesson on

Father Jerome LeDoux talks about the origin of music in New Orleans: "Well, our Music grew natuarlly out of our history..", it all began with the slavery, when bibel verses became lyrics of traditional songs and spiritual dances. Since then music took its development to the Holy Blues, Jazz and Gospel

Worshippers Flock To Century-Old Black Catholic Church

Every Sunday morning at 10 a.m. you can feel the spirit of the African-American church through the beats of a drum, the bluesy progressions of the piano and the soulful lyrics of its gospel music.

Take a guess at what denomination it is, though. You don’t have to go far, just look at the statue of the black Virgin Mary outside the church’s front door. They’re Catholic. Our Mother of Mercy Church has been there nearly 100 years.

“Jospehite’s founded this as a black church as they have all their churches,” said Rev. Jerome Ledoux, the church’s pastor.

Father Ledoux moved here from New Orleans after Katrina. His style of gospel mass came with him.

“I thought the Catholic Church was Catholic,” Ledoux said. “Catholic means universal, embracing everything. And finally it became universal when it began to embrace the Negro spiritual, black gospel.”

Decades before in the Catholic Church, the gospel melodies were allowed but the songs weren’t sung in English.

And singing gospel music in Latin just didn’t have the same impact.

“There is no music more sacred than the Negro spirituals,” LeDoux said. “It is straight out of the

Gospel. It is straight out of the heart of the slaves. Where Were You When They Crucified My Lord? You don’t get any more spiritual than that.”

The church’s message is delivered in a manner that’s evolved as the foundation of worship for generations of worshipers.

“It’s very important because we get to practice our faith with people who are very similar to our culture,” said Richard Alexander, a church member who said he tried attending several other churches before settling his family into the Our Mother of Mercy parish.

“The only way to preach the gospel effectively is according to a man a woman’s or child’s culture,” LeDoux said. “That’s the way you communicate with a person.”

Worshippers Flock To Century-Old Black Catholic Church

@Supper , you posted some great info on this before so I'll let you post it in here too

 

[IllmaticDelta]

Louisiana Vodoun vs Haitian Vodou

What does a "real name" even mean? And the majority of Africans practice Christianity and Islam. Which was enforced on them in their OWN lands. And if we wanna be real AAs in the deep South have their own religion i.e Louisiana Voodoo and Hoodoo. Its just not practiced as much.

Brought by Haitians

hoodoo isn't hatian

So you gonna purposely ignore voodoo? And ignore the fact that the origins of hoodoo and voodoo are from the same region in africa?

Lmfao

^^some old chatter on the subject


as I previously posted....

NS: France basically abandoned the colony after 1731, right?

GMH: Well, “abandoned” in the sense that most of the French colonists left, and very few came, so that there was a majority of Africans in all of the French settlements in colonial Louisiana, so that French Louisiana was heavily African. And it remained heavily African during the Spanish period, although there were more European-type colonizers who were brought in during the Spanish period, but there was still a slight majority of Africans and their descendants – a slight majority of slaves, in fact. There were also some Native American slaves.

NS: One of the major points I get from reading Africans in Colonial Louisiana was that there was an Afro-Louisianan identity firmly established early on.

GMH: Yes, it was established through language and culture. And the language, of course, was Louisiana Creole, which arose in the first generation. And that’s normal; Creole languages do that, they are established very early, and then newcomers have to pretty much learn that language, although of course, all languages evolve. But Louisiana Creole had been established for a long time before there was any substantial immigration from Haiti. So that Haitian Kreyol and Louisiana Creole are fairly distinct languages. And you cannot attribute Louisiana Creole to Haitian Kreyol, which is often done.

NS: If an Afro-Louisianan culture was well-established from an early date, that also would necessarily have included music.

GMH: Yes. Now, unfortunately, at least from what I’ve seen, I’ve seen much less about music than what we would want. Just a few descriptions of dances and instruments and stuff like that in the documents, but not a lot.

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NS: There’s a certain amount of lore that suggests that from that point we start to see – though there was already, as you pointed out, a Dahomeyan population in Louisiana. At that point we start to see voodoo appear in New Orleans culture. And I notice that in Louisiana they have “voodoo queens,” something unknown in Haiti…

GMH: Exactly. It’s distinctive. And Marie Laveau – you know, there’s this tendency to have everybody be Haitian. And they weren’t! Including Marie Laveau. She had no Haitian ancestors. She was Louisiana Creole. Charles Lalond, who was the leader of the 1811 slave revolt on the German Coast – Charles Gayarré passed the misinformation that he was a free man of color from Haiti. He was no such thing. He was a mulatto Creole slave of Louisiana. And I have not found any Haitians involved in any revolt or conspiracy against slavery in Louisiana. And I’ve looked through lots and lots of documents. And you can look yourself in my database. None of them were Haitians.

Gwendolyn Midlo Hall

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Louisiana Vodoun

Louisiana Voodoo, also known as New Orleans Voodoo, describes a set of spiritual folkways developed from the traditions of the African diaspora. It is a cultural form of the Afro-American religions developed by West and Central Africans populations of the U.S. state of Louisiana. Voodoo is one of many incarnations of African-based spiritual folkways rooted in West African Dahomeyan Vodun. Its liturgical language is Louisiana Creole French, the language of the Louisiana Creole people.

Voodoo became syncretized with the Catholic and Francophone culture of New Orleans as a result of the African cultural oppression in the region resulting from the Atlantic slave trade. Louisiana Voodoo is often confused with—but is not completely separable from—Haitian Vodou and Deep Southern Hoodoo. It differs from Haitian Vodou in its emphasis upon gris-gris, Voodoo queens, use of Hoodoo paraphernalia, and Li Grand Zombi. It was through Louisiana Voodoo that such terms as gris-gris (a Wolof term)and "Voodoo dolls"' were introduced into the American lexicon

Louisiana Vodoun is markedly different from Haitian Vodou. It is more of an amalgamation of religious and magical practices found in the southern United States. This includes some of the Lwa found in Haitian Vodou, a strong presence of the Catholic Saints, and elements of southern folk magic like gris-gris, wanga and mojo bags. There is not a “regleman” in the same manner as Haitian Vodou and there is more of an emphasis on self-made Vodou Queens like the famous Marie Laveau. Louisiana Vodoun has a strong connection with Spiritualism and shares many magical techniques with Hoodoo (southern folk magic) – but should not be confused with Hoodoo. You will see the use of veves (ornate painted symbols) in Louisiana Vodoun, much as in Haitian Vodou. Louisiana Vodoun’s primary liturgical language is English with a bit of French Creole.

What is the difference between Voodoo, Hoodoo and Santeria?
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as you can see, there was already a dahomeyan population + a bigger senegambian population which is part of the reason why New Orleans Vodoun is distinct from Haitian Vodou

vs

 

[IllmaticDelta]

GMH: For the U.S., but it was earlier in Louisiana. Because they were afraid, you know. I think there was a lot of fear of new Africans. The greatest fear of all was for Caribbeans. But new Africans were also feared.

NS: Then there was also a commercial motive, given the power of Virginia, to sell Americanized slaves from Virginia and Maryland down South.

GMH: Oh, that became tremendous business in the 19 th century.

NS: The slave-breeding industry…

GMH: Yes. That’s something else that needs to be databased, because there are shipping records giving great detail about slaves who were shipped from the east coast ports, all the way through 1860. Especially into New Orleans, but you can track them, you know, where they went from there, a few other ports, these were customs-house records of the United States, and they’re on microfilm. And so somebody needs to database that too.

Gwendolyn Midlo Hall

a little nugget

Oscar James Dunn (1826 – November 22, 1871) was one of three African Americans who served as a RepublicanLieutenant Governor of Louisiana during the era of Reconstruction.[1]

In 1868, Dunn became the first elected black lieutenant governor of a U.S. state.

Early life

Oscar James Dunn, Lieutenant Governor of Louisiana 1868–1871, National Archive Mathew Brady Collection
He was born into slavery in 1826 in New Orleans. As his mother, Maria Dunn, was enslaved, he took her status under the law of the time. His father, James Dunn, had been freed in 1819 by his master. James was born into slavery in Petersburg, Virginia and had been transported to the Deep South in the forced migration of more than one million African Americans from the Upper South.[2]

 

[Supper]

MYTH- NEW ORLEANS IS DIFFERENT FROM OTHER BLACK AREAS OF THE SOUTH BECAUSE OF IT'S CREOLE CATHOLIC CHURCH INFLUENCES







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this sure sounds alot like typcial catholic church music this creole man is giving a history lesson on







@Supper , you posted some great info on this before so I'll let you post it in here to

Ahh, you beat me to it. I was going to make a post about this. lol That's what I get for being slow to the punch, I guess.


So I'll just add this.

The religious themes of gospel music resonate throughout Louisiana, among blacks and whites alike, in both the predominately Protestant north and the predominately Catholic south. White gospel groups are rooted in British-American musical traditions, and tend to represent fundamentalist Protestant denominations. Black gospel, heard in Catholic as well as Protestant churches, evolved from the African-rooted ante-bellum traditions of spirituals and ring-shouts. It also bears the imprint of a late 19th-century style known as jubilee singing, which incorporated various European elements.

Gospel Music in Louisiana

Notice how the christian music tradition in Louisiana tends to cluster more along the lines of race/ethnicity than faith. ie AA catholics and protestants have more in common with each other than they do with whites of their particular faith.

Which goes back to this point.

"The scene varies little from that at the black Baptist church around the corner. But this is the 10:30 Gospel Mass at St. Monica Catholic Church."

But in New Orleans, several mostly black Catholic churches have already adapted the Mass to fit their style of worship, combining gospel music and revival-style preaching with the traditional Catholic liturgy.

Black New Orleans Catholics Already Incorporate Culture Into Worship

Which is just another example of one of the fruits of this cultural convergence of African-Americans into a unified ethnic group mentioned below.

People of African descent in the contiguous US have for the greater part of their history have CONVERGED culturally, politically, and ancestrally into a single ethnic community for almost 250 years. This cultural convergence of African-Americans as a people occured in many stages, most notably being:

- the domestic slave trade

- underground railroad

- reconstruction era black carpetbaggers in the south

- the great migrations of blacks from the south to the north, going back to the earliest exodusters in 1879

- legal and unwritten racial segregation in the US
​

 

[IllmaticDelta]

...that's why I tagged you so you could post all the good stuff you had on the topic

Ahh, you beat me to it. I was going to make a post about this. lol That's what I get for being slow to the punch, I guess.


So I'll just add this.


Gospel Music in Louisiana

Notice how the christian music tradition in Louisiana tends to cluster more along the lines of race/ethnicity than faith. ie AA catholics and protestants have more in common with each other than they do with whites of their particular faith.

Which goes back to this point.




Black New Orleans Catholics Already Incorporate Culture Into Worship

Which is just another example of one of the fruits of this cultural convergence of African-Americans into a unified ethnic group mentioned below.

 

[IllmaticDelta]

MYTH - BEING CREOLE MEANS YOU ARE OF HAITIAN DESCENT

“mix that negro with that creole”

that is beyonce in that quote, not me. creole refers to the caribbean.

ppl who are black creole can trace their culture back to haiti.

u act as if this is ridiculous because if it’s true, which it is, it’s a blow to your cac informed identity.

the south and the caribbean are culturally inextricable.

read history without an agenda and this will be obvious to u.


there’s already a thread on the coli about rakim’s dad being jamaican. you’ll be hard pressed to find nyc artists WITHOUT caribbean heritage.

it’s either that, the south, or both.

I mean it was all addressed in this thread...
Always thought this came from Africa or Caribbean ...actually it was New Orleans

@Supper @IllmaticDelta and what does he mean a significant part of the South?

no it doesn't.

a lot of yall talkin bout how caribbean ppl wear african american culture like clothes to be taken on and off. this the type of shyt that makes u sound like bots.

because if all that’s true, beyonce, future, lil wayne and a large portion of southern culture, y’all gotta give that back, because a lot of that is haitian influence before and after the haitian revolution. this being the case if your logic is true, but it’s not, so these artists stayin on my playlist.

^^some old chatter on the subject


Creole in the Louisiana sense of the word just means you have roots in the region dating back to the French/Spanish era. It doesn't mean anything about the caribbean. For example, Suzzane and Bryant are both LA Creole descent but neither has any haitian ancestors

relevant video


Three African-American guests delve deep into their family trees, discovering unexpected stories that challenge our assumptions about black history. Find local listings here: TV Schedule | Watch | Finding Your Roots

Bryant Gumbel learns that his surname comes from a German Jewish community by way of his second great grandfather — a white man who arrived in America midway through the Civil War. He also learns that on a different line of his father’s family, his second great grandfather was a manumitted slave who signed up for the Confederate army in New Orleans, then changed sides when the Union arrived in his city.

Tonya Lewis-Lee, a descendant of free people of color going back centuries on her father’s side, learns about her mother’s unknown heritage, including her third great-grandfather, a slave who fought for the Union only to struggle with poverty later in life.

Suzanne Malveaux discovers that her roots include a black slave owner, a French-Canadian fur trader, and a Native American from the Kaskaskia tribe. Along the way, our guests are reminded that there is no universal African American narrative — that there are as many ways to be black as there are black people.

 

[im_sleep]

In

 

[IllmaticDelta]

A typical jazz funeral begins at a church or funeral home and leads the way to the cemetery. Mourners are joined by a brass band that plays music that starts off heavy and sad but soon turns celebratory. Everybody dances.

In The Music of Black American, Eileen Southern describes the ceremony: “On the way to the cemetery it was customary to play very slowly and mournfully a dirge, or an old Negro spiritual such as 'Nearer My God to Thee,' but on the return from the cemetery, the band would strike up a rousing, 'When the Saints Go Marching In,' or a ragtime song such as 'Didn't He Ramble.'

The Jazz Funeral | New Orleans

Jelly Roll talking about it here

 

[IllmaticDelta]

When I did my research cursory research back in the day, Creole did mean anybody that was from Louisiana's French and Spanish colonial period but now that I think about it - never saw dark skin people presented as Creole when I did my research. It was always White people and then the mixed Blacks. I am talking about the historical pictures. It was always presented like a mixed Black and French and Spanish thing.

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you'll usually see pictures of light skinned folks when they talk about creoles (free people of color) from like the 1800's but obviously there were darker skinned ones around. One of the more known free people of color creoles was the composer, Edmund Dede

Edmond Dédé (November 27, 1827 – January 5, 1901)

when we talk about Zydeco, the history of that music is full of darker skinned creoles

 

[im_sleep]

@Supper and @IllmaticDelta

Got a question if yall got an idea or might know some good sources to research this. I been meaning to look more into this myself.

So considering that the Second Line and Mardi Gras Indian traditions are some of the main things often linked to the Caribbean, couldn’t it also be just as possible that these could be surviving links to Jonkonnu traditions in North Carolina and Virginia that died out?

If people can readily consider Haitian immigration as a source, I don’t see why this couldn’t be considered as well. I’ve yet to hear anybody really examine that possibility.

 

[Supper]

People of African descent in the contiguous US have for the greater part of their history have CONVERGED culturally, politically, and ancestrally into a single ethnic community for almost 250 years. This cultural convergence of African-Americans as a people occured in many stages, most notably being:

- the domestic slave trade

- underground railroad

- reconstruction era black carpetbaggers in the south

- the great migrations of blacks from the south to the north, going back to the earliest exodusters in 1879

- legal and unwritten racial segregation in the US
​

More on AA cultural convergence.

Most AA creole foods have some kind of general southern soul food variant.

Red Beans and Rice is a variation of the Hoppin John dish in the US southern soul food tradition.

Jambalaya is a variation of the Charleston Red Rice dish.

Dirty Rice is a variation of Rice Dressing in the US southern soul food tradition.

Gumbo is a variation of Okra Soup in US southern soul food tradition.

Not to mention all of the other typical soul food dishes are present in new orleans/louisiana cuisine as like grits, cornbread, collard greens, dressing, oxtail, pork bones etc etc.

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Architecturally shotgun homes can be found in traditional AAs neighborhoods from Houston, to Louisville, to Florida, to South carolina, North Carolina and even Chicago.

North Carolina

Louisville

Jacksonville

Tupelo, MS

Lowland SC

Houston TX

But, some people act like this is the most uniquely New Orleanian thing in the world.

 

[IllmaticDelta]

@Supper and @IllmaticDelta

Got a question if yall got an idea or might know some good sources to research this. I been meaning to look more into this myself.

So considering that the Second Line and Mardi Gras Indian traditions are some of the main things often linked to the Caribbean,

second line goes with the brass band traditions

mardi gras indians is a combination of white mardi gras parade krewes and black cowboy/wild west imagery

couldn’t it also be just as possible that these could be surviving links to Jonkonnu traditions in North Carolina and Virginia that died out?

If people can readily consider Haitian immigration as a source, I don’t see why this couldn’t be considered as well. I’ve yet to hear anybody really examine that possibility.

yes, those fall under pan-new world black, overlaps in the sense that they all have common african roots but took shape differently depending on regional influences. The pinkster parade of Afro-Dutch America, was something in the same vein

 

[Supper]

@Supper and @IllmaticDelta

Got a question if yall got an idea or might know some good sources to research this. I been meaning to look more into this myself.

So considering that the Second Line and Mardi Gras Indian traditions are some of the main things often linked to the Caribbean, couldn’t it also be just as possible that these could be surviving links to Jonkonnu traditions in North Carolina and Virginia that died out?

If people can readily consider Haitian immigration as a source, I don’t see why this couldn’t be considered as well. I’ve yet to hear anybody really examine that possibility.

Yeah, the official story is that the mardi gras indians originate from paying homage to when African slaves were given refuge to live amongst and fight with the natives of colonial Louisiana. See Natchez revolt and Samba Rebellion.

But, those happened in the 18th century and while there are supposedly some 18th century accounts of black slaves dressing as indians, the oldest surviving Mardi Gras Indian gangs like the Creole Wild West and Black Seminoles were like @IllmaticDelta said were based on cowboy/indian imagery in more western states like Texas (although of course black seminoles originate in FL with SC & GA roots).

Jonkonnu was a Christmas based festival, Pinkster is a Pentecost based festival, and Mardi gras indians are a Lent based festival.

All represent various Afr'Am christian syncretisms.