European vs North American description of the Moors

[Swagnificent]

Who's moving the goalposts now? cacs are either trying to hide things or they aren't. Which is it? Yes, as time goes on and scientific techniques make advancements more and more facts emerge. What a concept

the difference here is that race can't be tested scientifically. its a human construct. which humans have the oldest genes can be tested scientifically and it was only after it was proven that the oldest fully human genes were found in Africans that crakkas accepted the out of africa theory

according to science, these people

are most related to these people

as an indian I'm sure you've heard of the Andaman Islanders. a group that look very african but once their genes were tested, they showed they were very distant from modern africans and their closest genetic neighbors were mainland indians.

this is why race can't be tested genetically. and it also shows why race is simply a social construct and not a biological reality.

as we've stated many times in this thread, I can be considered a black man here in america, but if I go to somewhere like Brazil or South Africa I might be something else. no one here has tried to argue for some sort of racial absolutism. all we've said is under the AMERICAN CONSTRUCT OF RACE, the Ancient Egyptians and Moors would be black. PERIOD.

 

[Deluuxe]

Who's moving the goalposts now? cacs are either trying to hide things or they aren't. Which is it? Yes, as time goes on and scientific techniques make advancements more and more facts emerge. What a concept

You sound like a fukking jackass. Many of the people who were bringing those ideas forward had alot of proof on the "Out of Arica" theory, but many of those "scholars" would simply reject them and it wasn't until they had proof that they couldn't go around no more or try to mystify that they had NO CHOICE but to accept it. Even Van Sertima in many of his lectures has spoken about how they white people in "academia" are. That same mentality is prevelant in every stream of the society and is why when a kid gets shot for playing loud music and all the evidence is clear of what has happened they still take YEARS to solve the case, and when they do they STILL find a way to go around it (not actually charging the dude of murdering the kid but of attempted murder of the other kids in the car, the part they couldn't mystify or weasel their way out of)

 

[GetInTheTruck]

You sound like a fukking jackass. Many of the people who were bringing those ideas forward had alot of proof on the "Out of Arica" theory, but many of those "scholars" would simply reject them and it wasn't until they had proof that they couldn't go around no more or try to mystify that they had NO CHOICE but to accept it. Even Van Sertima in many of his lectures has spoken about how they white people in "academia" are. That same mentality is prevelant in every stream of the society and is why when a kid gets shot for playing loud music and all the evidence is clear of what has happened they still take YEARS to solve the case, and when they do they STILL find a way to go around it (not actually charging the dude of murdering the kid but of attempted murder of the other kids in the car, the part they couldn't mystify or weasel their way out of)

Oh I get it, so they were trying to keep it hidden by choosing not to hide it anymore?

 

[GetInTheTruck]

do you have hair like wool? because if you don't, you wouldn't have been a moor. the moors were described not only as dark skinnned but with wooly hair. typical of the description of modern day black people.

I have hair like matt barnes, is he a moor

wow you really are the WOAT.

 

[Deluuxe]

I have hair like matt barnes, is he a moor

wow you really are the WOAT.

How the Moors described their European foes: Sa-id of Andalusia (1029-1071) wrote the following of his White Iberian opponents: They “are nearer animals than men.. . They are by nature unthinking and their manners crude. Their bellies protrude; their color is white and their hair is long. In sharpness and delicacy of spirit and in intellectual perspicacity, they are nil. Ignorance, lack of reasoning power and boorishness are common among them.” (Kitab Tabakat al Umaxn (Blachere K. p. 36. 1935)

 

[Poitier]

You guys want to see the world as black and white and then accuse others of being "cacs" or "agents" of cacs.

culture language and ethnicity have separated groups of people since the beginning of human society. Skin color and hair texture means jack shyt.

Why is it always light on top and dark on bottom no matter where you go in the world? Most us can agree that race is silly and culture is a better measuring stick, why can't white man see that?

If race doesn't exist then what are you arguing about?

Europeans didn't base their characterizations of superiority/inferiority on the "skin color" of peoples, that's absurd...they based them on what they believed certain groups of people had accomplished. Europeans always admired civilizations like Egypt and India (who were dark skinned) that's why they tried to claim them as white. They considered other groups of africans to be inferior because they didn't believe they had civilizations worth talking about....it had nothing to do with the fact that they were "black."

all this black/white shyt is for the birds.

Which is why they went through a great deal of trouble destroying many of those "inferior" African civilizations? Is it why they said things like The Great Zimbabwean Empire was White and destroyed proof a century ago? Great logic.

Bruh, you read Diops and John G. Jacksons books, good for you, so have I. That doesn't disprove anything I've said so far. I never claimed the ancient Egyptians shouldn't be considered a "black" people....but they were culturally and ethnically different from other African societies. You can't blame cacs for making those divisions because those divisions existed before cacs even stepped on the scene.

How were the Egyptians different than the Nubians?

 

[Ikwa]

you should understand that he's referring to "black" there as the west african phenotype. there are other black afican phenotypes. you claim to be somalian, i'm sure you'll agree with me that the east african phenotype is different from the west african phenotype but still black. right?

well it shouldn't be surprising. I don't think anyone here has claimed that the berbers looked exactly like the bantu tribes of west africa. what we are saying is that they were similar in type of the black tribes living there RIGHT NOW.
you know these people

if you don't believe me then please explain away this picture

this is a picture and news clipping about the barbary pirates. as you can see from the news clipping, this riff pirate was off the seaboard of Morocco. and he is CLEARLY black.

Now hold on a minute, a few pages back you were simplifying the world as Black and White but now you're coming with the "different phenotype", "black but not this type of black" and so on. You claimed that Filipinos and Sri Lankans are Black but now you're saying Northwestern and West Africans are not the same type of Black. Just as I thought you're making things up as you go along. Meanwhile this was my post way back on page 5 before you came in with your extreme view of the world.

@Deluuxe like I said the Moors were a mix of West Africans (black skin) and North Africans (tanned skin) which were united by their common belief in Islam.

This is common knowledge out here in Europe.

What I mean by tanned skin is something like this: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/98/Sahrawi_with_flag.jpg this man is from the Sahrawi tribe which formed the Almoravid Dynasty in Northwestern Africa and Southern Spain in 1062.
Another example: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...z,_2005.jpg/165px-Mohamed_Abdelaziz,_2005.jpg this is the current president of Sahrawi Arab Republic. In America you may consider them black but that's not how it works in the rest of the world. These people refer to themselves as Berbers, not Black. Your American opinion is null and void here.
I also believe people with Black skin were part of the Moors http://newshour.s3.amazonaws.com/photos/2013/10/15/camels_blog_main_horizontal.jpg

So what I was saying back on page 5 of this thread is what you're saying right now smh.

well it shouldn't be surprising. I don't think anyone here has claimed that the berbers looked exactly like the bantu tribes of west africa.

Basically you wasted my time. I've been saying the Moors were a mixture of people, tanned skinned from North Africa (Morocco, Algeria, Libya) and black skinned further south (Mali, Niger). Mauritania would be a good example of what the Moors looked like, they came in many shades.

On the other hand you've been saying that Moors were strictly a black group, when I cornered you with Ibn Battuta's quote you then switched it up to "they're black but not this type of black" smh.

CONTINUED BELOW

 

[Ikwa]

@Swagnificent
Furthermore I still need to know why the inhabitants of modern day North Africa are not predominantly black skinned but come in various shades like I've claimed. Most of them having a tanned skin complexion, what you Americans refer to "sandnikkas". The Arabs did not affect the looks of North African people and after the Ummayad Dynasty of Syria lost control of Spain, Berber empires rose in NA and southern Spain. So when did this mixing of the Berbers take place then?

The Almoravid Dynasty of Northwestern Africa and Southern Spain founded in the 11th century.

The Almoravids (Berber: ⵉⵎⵕⴰⴱⴹⴻⵏImṛabḍen, Arabic: المرابطون‎ Al-Murābiṭūn) were a Berber dynasty of Morocco,[1][2] who formed an empire in the 11th century that stretched over the western Maghreb and Al-Andalus. Their capital was Marrakesh, a city they founded in 1062. The dynasty originated among the Lamtuna and the Gudala, nomadic Berber tribes of the Sahara, traversing the territory between the Draa, theNiger and the Senegal rivers.[3]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Almoravid_dynasty

The Sahrawi tribe which I've mentioned above are an offshoots of the Lamtunas.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamtuna

We also have reports that those Berbers went to war with sub-saharan Africans in the 10th century.

The western Sanhaja had been converted to Islam some time in the 9th century. They were subsequently united in the 10th century and, with the zeal of neophyte converts, launched several campaigns against the "Sudanese" (pagan black peoples of sub-Saharan Africa).[12] Under their king Tinbarutan ibn Usfayshar, the Sanhaja Lamtuna erected (or captured) the citadel of Awdaghust, a critical stop on the trans-Saharan trade route.

Again we see a clear differentiation between Berbers and Black sub-saharan Africans. What will it take for you to understand that the region is complex and doesn't simply end at either black or white?

The Almoravids later on went to war with the Ghana empire, defeated them and then intermarried.

The Almoravids conquered the Ghana Empire sometime around 1075 CE.[19] According to Arab tradition, the ensuing war pushed Ghana over the edge, ending the kingdom's position as a commercial and military power by 1100. It collapsed into tribal groups and chieftaincies, some of which later assimilated into the Almoravids while others founded the Mali Empire. However, the Almoravid religious influence was gradual and not heavily involved in military strife; there the Almoravids increased in power by marrying among the nation's nobility.

After the Almoravids you had the Almohad Caliphate that ruled until 1269.

The Almohad Dynasty (Berber: Imweḥḥden, from Arabic الموحدون al-Muwaḥḥidun, "the monotheists" or "the unitarians") was a Moroccan[5][6]Berber-Muslim dynasty founded in the 12th century that established a Berber state in Tinmel in the Atlas Mountains in roughly 1120.[7]

The movement was started by Ibn Tumart in the Masmuda tribe, followed by Abd al-Mu'min al-Gumi between 1130 and his death in 1163, the Almohads defeated the ruling Almoravids, extending their power over all of the Maghreb. Al-Andalus (Islamic Iberia) under the Almoravid dynasty, followed the fate of Africa.[8]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Almohad#Origins

The Almohad originated from the Masmuda tribal confederation, their leader was Ibn Tumart. Here's how they were organised.

Ibn Tumart organized the Almohads as a commune, with a minutely detailed structure. At the core was the ahl ad-dar (house of the Mahdi, composed of Ibn Tumart's family); they were supplemented two councils, an inner Council of Ten, the Mahdi's privy council, composed of his earliest and closest companions, and the consultative Council of Fifty, composed of the leading sheikhs of the Masmuda tribes. The early preachers and missionaries (talbaand huffaz) also had their representatives. Militarily, there was a strict hierarchy of units. The Hargha tribe coming first (although not strictly ethnic; it included many "honorary" or "adopted" tribesmen from other ethnicities, e.g. Abd al-Mu'min himself). This was followed by the men of Tinmel, then the other Masmuda tribes in order, and rounded off by the black slave-fighters, the abid.

Notice how the Berbers (Masmuda tribes) and Blacks are once again differentiated? Why do they keep doing that if Berbers were predominantly Black themselves? Can you answer this? You're making me post things that I don't want to.

Who took over after the Almohads? The Marinid Dynasty, they ruled between 1244 and 1465.
What is important about this period of time is that this was the years Ibn Battuta was alive. Sometime around 1324 Ibn Battuta travelled to Mali and that's when he said "Walata is the Northern-most town of Blacks". I've already shown that Walata is in Southern Mauritania, this is when you suddently changed your worldly view from being confined to Black and White to now seeing many shades and diverse people out there

The Marinid came from the Zenata tribe that was located somewhere around Tunisia/Libya and where forced to migrate West to Morocco to escape the Arab Banu Hilal invasion.

The Marinids were an offshoot of the Wassin, a nomadic Zenata Berber tribe originated from Ifriqiya[5] that migrated to the West following theBanu Hilal invasion in the 11th century. They took their name from their ancestor, Marin ibn Wartajan al-Zenati

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marinid

So the Marinid escaped from the invading Arab Banu Hilal tribe therefore no mixing could have taken part there. Also the white slaves started arriving at North African markets in the 16th century however the Marinid only ruled until the 15th.

From this we can conclude that no mixing took part with white people nor did any take part with Arabs therefore Berbers still had their original look at this time. Why did Ibn Battuta then refer to a town in Southern Mauritania as the Northern-most region of Black people?
Because Berbers were not a predominantly Black group, yes they had Black tribes within them but the majority of Berbers had a tanned skin (see my earlier example of this further up the post).

At the height of their power, during the rule of Abu al-Hasan 'Ali (1331–1348), the Marinid army was large and disciplined. It consisted of 40.000 Zenata cavalry, while Arab nomads contributed to the cavalry and Andalusians were included as archers. The personal bodyguard of the sultan consisted of 7.000 men, and included Christian, Kurdish and Black African elements.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marinid

Again, Berbers and Blacks are clearly being differentiate. I'm sure you'd also believe that Kurdish people are Arabs...

CONTINUED BELOW

 

[Ikwa]

@Swagnificent

You then had the Wattasid Dynasty, again descending from the Zenata tribe followed by brief rules of other dynasties and finally the Alouite Dynasty founded in 1631 and is currently the Royal Family of Morocco. The Alouite also had a brigade made up only of Black soldiers.

The organization of the sultanate developed under Ismail Ibn Sharif (1672–1727), who, against the opposition of local tribes began to create a unified state. Because the Alaouites had difficult relations with many of the country's Berber and Bedouin-Arab tribes, Isma'īl formed a new army of blacks, the Black Guard. However, the unity of Morocco did not survive his death—in the ensuing power struggles the tribes became a political and military force once again.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alaouite_dynasty

This is what is written about the Black Guard

The Black Guard were the corps of West African and Black Moroccan soldiers assembled by the Alaouite sultan of Morocco, Moulay Ismail (reigned 1672–1727).[1] The Black Guard descended from black tribes of the south brought to Morocco from sub-Saharan Africa, who were settled with their families in a special colonies

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Guard

Need I say more? This clearly says the Black Guard came from ancestors which were brought from sub-saharan Africa, can you see the recurrence of this and constant differentiation between Berbers and sub-saharan Black tribes?

You also had other Dynasties in present day Algeria, Tunisia, Libya such as the Fatimid.

Stop trying to paint the Moors as a strictly Black force, it won't cup it. They were a mix of various groups and came in many shades.

 

[Black Magisterialness]

lol

they was black cuh

the propaganda was created to drive the moors out .. shyt gave birth to racism.. the moors were actually very much appreciated by whitefolks before that.

It's like the reconquista of spain... shyt never even happened. Half the so called muslim moors that they kicked out of spain.. were spainards themselves.

you know that's why i never understood the level of racism in Spain. Half their population besides the Catalans and the Basque owe lineage Moors. Southern Spanish and Southern Italian/Sicilian self hate its a muthafukkka manye

 

[Chesirecatdaddy]

you know that's why i never understood the level of racism in Spain. Half their population besides the Catalans and the Basque owe lineage Moors. Southern Spanish and Southern Italian/Sicilian self hate its a muthafukkka manye

that's the entire problem

before the moors they were redheaded ppl....now when they look at their architecture.. or in the mirror they have constant reminders of us. We actually made them greater...it's funny because at first they embraced us... there wsa a movement that was propagandized to remove our influence and create hate...and it worked...and it's working to this day.


Even recently that actor Javier Bardem (no country for old men) released a propaganda film demonizing morocco and praising francisco franco and colonial rule over morocco. Dude got blasted by the UN ambassadors of france and morocco.. and caused a strain in france morrocan and spanish relations. Great actor who needs to stick to acting and not politics and propaganda. The basque and Catalans been asking for independence forever.

 

[Deluuxe]

Now hold on a minute, a few pages back you were simplifying the world as Black and White but now you're coming with the "different phenotype", "black but not this type of black" and so on. You claimed that Filipinos and Sri Lankans are Black but now you're saying Northwestern and West Africans are not the same type of Black. Just as I thought you're making things up as you go along. Meanwhile this was my post way back on page 5 before you came in with your extreme view of the world.

What I mean by tanned skin is something like this: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/98/Sahrawi_with_flag.jpg this man is from the Sahrawi tribe which formed the Almoravid Dynasty in Northwestern Africa and Southern Spain in 1062.
Another example: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fa/Mohamed_Abdelaziz,_2005.jpg/165px-Mohamed_Abdelaziz,_2005.jpg this is the current president of Sahrawi Arab Republic. In America you may consider them black but that's not how it works in the rest of the world. These people refer to themselves as Berbers, not Black. Your American opinion is null and void here.
I also believe people with Black skin were part of the Moors http://newshour.s3.amazonaws.com/photos/2013/10/15/camels_blog_main_horizontal.jpg

So what I was saying back on page 5 of this thread is what you're saying right now smh.

Basically you wasted my time. I've been saying the Moors were a mixture of people, tanned skinned from North Africa (Morocco, Algeria, Libya) and black skinned further south (Mali, Niger). Mauritania would be a good example of what the Moors looked like, they came in many shades.

On the other hand you've been saying that Moors were strictly a black group, when I cornered you with Ibn Battuta's quote you then switched it up to "they're black but not this type of black" smh.

CONTINUED BELOW

??? I never said that tan skinned moors who were more of arabic descent didn't go into Europe, but Im saying they were a minority in that invasion. Even Van sertima said this, of the 7000 that went in 711 6700 where black africans and 300 where other types probably the more fair skinned arabian types.

watch from about 48:40 he speaks about how everything came to be up until the 711 invasion.

 

[Chesirecatdaddy]

@Swagnificent
Furthermore I still need to know why the inhabitants of modern day North Africa are not predominantly black skinned but come in various shades like I've claimed. Most of them having a tanned skin complexion, what you Americans refer to "sandnikkas". The Arabs did not affect the looks of North African people and after the Ummayad Dynasty of Syria lost control of Spain, Berber empires rose in NA and southern Spain. So when did this mixing of the Berbers take place then?

The Almoravid Dynasty of Northwestern Africa and Southern Spain founded in the 11th century.

The Sahrawi tribe which I've mentioned above are an offshoots of the Lamtunas.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamtuna

We also have reports that those Berbers went to war with sub-saharan Africans in the 10th century.

Again we see a clear differentiation between Berbers and Black sub-saharan Africans. What will it take for you to understand that the region is complex and doesn't simply end at either black or white?

The Almoravids later on went to war with the Ghana empire, defeated them and then intermarried.

After the Almoravids you had the Almohad Caliphate that ruled until 1269.


The Almohad originated from the Masmuda tribal confederation, their leader was Ibn Tumart. Here's how they were organised.

Notice how the Berbers (Masmuda tribes) and Blacks are once again differentiated? Why do they keep doing that if Berbers were predominantly Black themselves? Can you answer this? You're making me post things that I don't want to.

Who took over after the Almohads? The Marinid Dynasty, they ruled between 1244 and 1465.
What is important about this period of time is that this was the years Ibn Battuta was alive. Sometime around 1324 Ibn Battuta travelled to Mali and that's when he said "Walata is the Northern-most town of Blacks". I've already shown that Walata is in Southern Mauritania, this is when you suddently changed your worldly view from being confined to Black and White to now seeing many shades and diverse people out there

The Marinid came from the Zenata tribe that was located somewhere around Tunisia/Libya and where forced to migrate West to Morocco to escape the Arab Banu Hilal invasion.

So the Marinid escaped from the invading Arab Banu Hilal tribe therefore no mixing could have taken part there. Also the white slaves started arriving at North African markets in the 16th century however the Marinid only ruled until the 15th.

From this we can conclude that no mixing took part with white people nor did any take part with Arabs therefore Berbers still had their original look at this time. Why did Ibn Battuta then refer to a town in Southern Mauritania as the Northern-most region of Black people?
Because Berbers were not a predominantly Black group, yes they had Black tribes within them but the majority of Berbers had a tanned skin (see my earlier example of this further up the post).

Again, Berbers and Blacks are clearly being differentiate. I'm sure you'd also believe that Kurdish people are Arabs...

CONTINUED BELOW

that's all well and good but the berbers are a mixed bunch they didnt go to war with sub saharan africans just because they were black breh... and it's already well known that the tribes from arabia didn't t diminish anyone that was already in the region.. the lightening happened a long time ago..so there's nothing new here. The whole lie about the tribes from the Arabian peninsula changing the make up the people and completely eliminating the way they look is a farce. They spread culture and religion that was the goal.

 

[Ikwa]

??? I never said that tan skinned moors who were more of arabic descent didn't go into Europe, but Im saying they were a minority in that invasion. Even Van sertima said this, of the 7000 that went in 711 6700 where black africans and 300 where other types probably the more fair skinned arabian types.

watch from about 48:40 he speaks about how everything came to be up until the 711 invasion.

That post wasn't directed at you, I'm the one who said Moors had a mix of tanned and black skinned folks.

 

[Ikwa]

that's all well and good but the berbers are a mixed bunch they didnt go to war with sub saharan africans just because they were black breh... and it's already well known that the tribes from arabia didn't t diminish anyone that was already in the region.. the lightening happened a long time ago..so there's nothing new here. The whole lie about the tribes from the Arabian peninsula changing the make up the people and completely eliminating the way they look is a farce. They spread culture and religion that was the goal.

That's all I been saying from the start but you got folk in here that'll have you believe Moors were strictly Black and that Berbers became whitewashed due to the Arabs and Barbary slave trade smh.