Elijah Muhammad is the greatest Black leader ever in North America

Losttribe

[Formerly Blackking]
Joined
Jan 14, 2016
Messages
5,458
Reputation
-750
Daps
10,682
Integration as Martin imagined it was no more idealistic than Garveyism.

Martin also understood the real damage of capitalism much better than the NOI or Garvey.
The noi actually spoke out against capitalism... Malcolm and every other minister til now.
And MLKs pov didn't evolve until the week after he met with Elijah Muhammad.

And I agree that Garveyism was idealistic.... But integration actually did damage and hurt us financially and mentally
 

Poitier

My Words Law
Supporter
Joined
Jul 30, 2013
Messages
69,411
Reputation
15,449
Daps
246,375
The real damage was capitalism, so seek white accomodation and fairness in a socialist system of communism, where those same whites who are lynching you have even more "legal" /"justified" power over your life than the Washington/NoI/Garvey and later day Du Bois option of championing voluntary black seperation physically and economically?

I don't see your argument, unless you just think capitalism is the root of racism, ignoring the history of socialists of all types, even communists being equally racist and white supremacist as white capitalist.

"Black sepraration" does not undo the injustices of capitalism.
"Black capitalism" does not undo the injustices of capitalism.

The Poor Peoples Campaign and the fight for reparations was much more on the ball.
 

Poitier

My Words Law
Supporter
Joined
Jul 30, 2013
Messages
69,411
Reputation
15,449
Daps
246,375
The noi actually spoke out against capitalism... Malcolm and every other minister til now.
And MLKs pov didn't evolve until the week after he met with Elijah Muhammad.

And I agree that Garveyism was idealistic.... But integration actually did damage and hurt us financially and mentally

The problem with the NOIs ideology is it could not be replicated on a large scale without some sort of reparations which Martin understood.
 

jackson35

Banned
Joined
Jun 26, 2015
Messages
6,750
Reputation
-2,338
Daps
6,429
WEB DuBois in his own work initally calls for integrationism, so its time to admit you have never read a single article or paper from Du Bois and just move on.
Another show in your intellectual laziness is that you initially claim it was Du Bois who had Garvey's sentence commuted (which was his deporting to Jamiace), now you claim he didn't have enough juice to do the same thing. You literally have no idea what you are writing about.

So there is no reason to continue a discussion with you. That said I hope you get the want to pick up a book and educate yourself on the men we are discussing.
you can't have a dicussion with me because you refuse to listen. i'm willing to listen you, but you won't give me the same respect. i said he tried to influence Washington to to lower his time, they responded by kicking him out of the usa, that's the president and j edgar hoover's doing. web dubois can't be a intergrationist and a communist at the same timel LOL. trust me homie i know more about the garvey dubois conflict then you do.
 

Losttribe

[Formerly Blackking]
Joined
Jan 14, 2016
Messages
5,458
Reputation
-750
Daps
10,682
The problem with the NOIs ideology is it could not be replicated on a large scale without some sort of reparations which Martin understood.
Why couldn't it be replicated?

Also, it doesn't take much to do as the noi did, the point is simplicity of the plan, the culture, eating, and group business

Martin spent his career, honestly, asking.... Sometimes dealing, and even begging. Trying to make deals with oppressors and thought pulling on devil heartstrings was an effective model for liberation. Right?
 

jackson35

Banned
Joined
Jun 26, 2015
Messages
6,750
Reputation
-2,338
Daps
6,429
The real damage was capitalism, so seek white accomodation and fairness in a socialist system of communism, where those same whites who are lynching you have even more "legal" /"justified" power over your life than the Washington/NoI/Garvey and later day Du Bois option of championing voluntary black seperation physically and economically?

I don't see your argument, unless you just think capitalism is the root of racism, ignoring the history of socialists of all types, even communists being equally racist and white supremacist as white capitalist.
can you give an example of communistic racism? i'm waiting with baited breath.
 

David_TheMan

Veteran
Bushed
Joined
Dec 2, 2015
Messages
37,126
Reputation
-3,329
Daps
83,513
"Black sepraration" does not undo the injustices of capitalism.
"Black capitalism" does not undo the injustices of capitalism.

The Poor Peoples Campaign and the fight for reparations was much more on the ball.
HIstory is set, nothing undoes what is done, so your first two sentences apply to everything than can ever be done.
A fight for white support for blacks and white funding of blacks is on the ball for what? White dependency is the only thing I see.
Time has shown us that if the argument or goal is black advancement, dependence on white society and a white supremacist power structure is not the way to go. It has failed.

you can't have a dicussion with me because you refuse to listen. i'm willing to listen you, but you won't give me the same respect. i said he tried to influence Washington to to lower his time, they responded by kicking him out of the usa, that's the president and j edgar hoover's doing. web dubois can't be a intergrationist and a communist at the same timel LOL. trust me homie i know more about the garvey dubois conflict then you do.

You said he had no influence you last post now he used his influence, which one is it.
Garvey was commuted by Coolidge, and he was deported since he wasn't a US citizen and convicted of a crime. You have no point with regard to lowering his time, seeing that he never should have been convicted in the first place nor charged.
There are plenty of integrationist/communist, Bayard Rustin and James Baldwin off the top of my head

can you give an example of communistic racism? i'm waiting with baited breath.
Easy look up Richard Wright
Richard Wright (author) - Wikipedia
In 1932, he began attending meetings of the John Reed Club. As the club was dominated by the Communist Party, Wright established a relationship with several party members. Especially interested in the literary contacts made at the meetings, Wright formally joined the Communist Party in late 1933. As a revolutionary poet, he wrote numerous proletarian poems ("We of the Red Leaves of Red Books", for example), for The New Masses and other left-wing periodicals. A power struggle within the Chicago chapter of the John Reed Club had led to the dissolution of the club's leadership; Wright was told he had the support of the club's party members if he was willing to join the party.[13]

By 1935, Wright had completed his first novel, Cesspool, published posthumously as Lawd Today (1963). In January 1936 his story "Big Boy Leaves Home" was accepted for publication in New Caravan. In February of that year, he began working with the National Negro Congress. In April he chaired the South Side Writers Group, whose members included Arna Bontemps and Margaret Walker. Wright submitted some of his critical essays and poetry to the group for criticism and read aloud some of his short stories. Through the club, he edited Left Front, a magazine that the Communist Party shut down in 1937, despite Wright's repeated protests.[14] Throughout this period, Wright continued to contribute to The New Masses magazine.

Pleased by his positive relations with white Communists in Chicago, Wright was later humiliated in New York City by some white party members who rescinded an offer to find housing for him when they learned his race.[15] Some black Communists denounced Wright as a "bourgeois intellectual," but he was largely autodidactic. He had been forced to end his public education after completing junior high school to support his mother and brother.[16]

Wright insisted that young communist writers be given space to cultivate their talents and he had a working relationship with a black nationalist communist; these factors led to a public falling out with the party and leading members. Wright later described this episode through his fictional character Buddy Nealson, an African-American communist in his book Black Boy.[17] The relations with the party turned violent: Wright was threatened at knife point by fellow-traveler co-workers, denounced as a Trotskyite in the street by strikers, and physically assaulted by former comrades when he tried to join them during the 1936 May Day march.[18]

I can cite you the personal writings of Engels and Marx as well
 

Poitier

My Words Law
Supporter
Joined
Jul 30, 2013
Messages
69,411
Reputation
15,449
Daps
246,375
HIstory is set, nothing undoes what is done, so your first two sentences apply to everything than can ever be done.
A fight for white support for blacks and white funding of blacks is on the ball for what? White dependency is the only thing I see.
Time has shown us that if the argument or goal is black advancement, dependence on white society and a white supremacist power structure is not the way to go. It has failed.

Reparations isn't white dependency. One way or another, the capital imbalance caused by Transatlantic slavery will have to be corrected.
 

David_TheMan

Veteran
Bushed
Joined
Dec 2, 2015
Messages
37,126
Reputation
-3,329
Daps
83,513
Reparations isn't white dependency. One way or another, the capital imbalance caused by Transatlantic slavery will have to be corrected.
It literally is white dependency.
You are asking and hoping that those who wronged you, from the goodness of their heart give you capital to be made right, when they have told you no for 100s of years while acitvely working to make your life worse while you are asking.

The results of the slave trade WILL NEVER BE CORRECTED. It happened, and because hte white power structure that allowed it is still in power, to expect them to make right what they did will never happen.

So the question becomes will you sit and wait on them or in the words of Booker T Washington, will you cast down your buckets
 

Poitier

My Words Law
Supporter
Joined
Jul 30, 2013
Messages
69,411
Reputation
15,449
Daps
246,375
It literally is white dependency.
You are asking and hoping that those who wronged you, from the goodness of their heart give you capital to be made right, when they have told you no for 100s of years while acitvely working to make your life worse while you are asking.

The results of the slave trade WILL NEVER BE CORRECTED. It happened, and because hte white power structure that allowed it is still in power, to expect them to make right what they did will never happen.

So the question becomes will you sit and wait on them or in the words of Booker T Washington, will you cast down your buckets

Reparation don't have to be "asked" for.

And the results of slavery have to be corrected. Circulating crumbs isn't going to do a damn thing.
 

David_TheMan

Veteran
Bushed
Joined
Dec 2, 2015
Messages
37,126
Reputation
-3,329
Daps
83,513
Reparation don't have to be "asked" for.

And the results of slavery have to be corrected. Circulating crumbs isn't going to do a damn thing.
Outside of asking reparations can be demanded with force.
Are you arguing black americns should use force to demand reparations from the US, Spain, Portugal, UK, and African nations that participated in the slave trade?
The results of slavery will never be corrected, it happened, either black americans to make moves to start acting in our best interest, or they can brace for war against a society in which we only make up 13% of the population or ask the whtie society to please give us some money. Only one of those options seem feasible.

Calling black income and wealth in this nation crumbs, reeks of the defeatist mindset that a lot of the integrationists had in the 60s. Give up on the wealth and self sufficiency that black americans generated in our own parrallel systems for complete dependence and "white acceptance" because this need for whites and the white power structure to "lift them up" or "value them"
 

Poitier

My Words Law
Supporter
Joined
Jul 30, 2013
Messages
69,411
Reputation
15,449
Daps
246,375
Outside of asking reparations can be demanded with force.
Are you arguing black americns should use force to demand reparations from the US, Spain, Portugal, UK, and African nations that participated in the slave trade?
The results of slavery will never be corrected, it happened, either black americans to make moves to start acting in our best interest, or they can brace for war against a society in which we only make up 13% of the population or ask the whtie society to please give us some money. Only one of those options seem feasible.

Calling black income and wealth in this nation crumbs, reeks of the defeatist mindset that a lot of the integrationists had in the 60s. Give up on the wealth and self sufficiency that black americans generated in our own parrallel systems for complete dependence and "white acceptance" because this need for whites and the white power structure to "lift them up" or "value them"

You're living in the same La La land Garvey was living in and folks like Dr. Claude currently live in :yeshrug:
 

David_TheMan

Veteran
Bushed
Joined
Dec 2, 2015
Messages
37,126
Reputation
-3,329
Daps
83,513
You're living in the same La La land Garvey was living in and folks like Dr. Claude currently live in :yeshrug:
I think you are living in a state of mental subjugation with regard to the system of white supremacy.
Seems like you are done replying like a man now and are resorting to fruitless name calling and insults.
So have a good one, it was nice talking, even if we disagree, while it lasted.
:mjgrin:
 
Top