Does the large Caribbean presence in NYC's Hip Hop scene explain the disconnect with other regions?

IllmaticDelta

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Interesting. Sounds like there were so many influences and pieces that eventually formed in to hip hop that its hard to find a definitive root.

But I'm still not convinced by Herc saying it had zero impact. Sounds like he's drawing a line based on semantics and his own logic. If he is indeed the father/creator of hip hop I don't think its possible for there to be "zero" influence when he himself (and many other early hip hop pioneers) grew up in West Indian culture. Even if he isn't the sole "father" you can't really separate New York from Caribbean culture...


because he along with the other HipHop dj's was actually adapting American Funk/Disco music along with Disco dj'ing techniques. Disco djing is totally different from theJamaican sound system style. For example



As far as djing, I never heard of any Jamaican DJ doing backspins, cutting, blends, scratches, chops,etc. All they do is slam records, and literally start the record over. I'm not dissing them because they do those things well but that is nothing like turntablism that we do in the states. These things should be mentioned when people say Jamaica was the home of the creation of hip hop.

I don't how anyone could look at the sound system turntable operators and think HipHop djing came from that considering they didn't even use 2 turntables and a mixer for continuous mixing. That came straight from Disco.

Although Herc was known for letting records play before and beyond their breaks (sometimes, to the consternation of some observers, including the “wack” or undesirable parts, or all the way to the end of a track), perhaps his most lasting legacy is the practice of isolating and extending these breakbeats, transforming the fleeting, funky moments into loops that could last for many minutes. Eventually, by employing two turntables and two copies of a record, Herc developed what he called the “Merry-Go-Round” technique. Dropping the needle back to the beginning of the break on one record just as the other was about to end, and repeating the process ad infinitum, Herc could keep a break — and a crowd of b-boys — breaking for as long as that particular section would work. Though the hip-hop story has enshrined Herc as the first to isolate and repeat breakbeats in this way, it should be noted that Herc’s technical proficiency was never exactly heralded, and so his focus on and liberation of the break should perhaps be understood more as an aesthetic than a technical achievement. Later DJs, such as Grandmaster Flash, influenced by Herc’s model but more virtuosic in their control over the turntables and mixer, would improve on the formula, moving beyond drop-the-needle imprecision by backspinning, scratching, and cutting the records while cueing them via monitoring headphones, thus allowing one to mix breaks more seamlessly into one another and to isolate shorter and shorter sections for repetition.

As an element of style, Herc’s less-than-seamless, stop-and-start approach to selection draws yet another connection to reggae performance practice. Whereas hip-hop DJing — partly related to its roots in disco and the club scene — has since developed in a manner that privileges smooth, beat-matched transitions between tracks, reggae selecting has remained a style more defined by stark cuts and mixes. This is often the case even when a selector is “juggling,” or mixing sequentially, several songs on the same underlying riddim: when a popular song receives requests for a “pull up,” the selector rewinds it, usually suddenly and audibly, and lets it play again. Reggae-style selecting arises partly out of the constraints of using a single turntable


Herc tried to the Disco Djing style but he never caught on. Disco djing is where Herc got the idea to use 2 copies of the same record with 2 turntables. They never did that in Jamaican sound system culture. For example

This video is a good example of the transition from pure Disco Djing to HipHop djing before the scratching and other tricks came in. This is like playing the break parts but with smooth disco djing skills.




This is a great example when it fully came into it's own and added new ideas such as back spinning and scratching






You will not find anything like this in the Jamaican Sound system operators because it relates more to Disco







 
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Grandmaster Flowers (Jonathon Cameron Flowers) was a DJ from Brooklyn, New York. One of the earliest DJs to mix records together in sequence,[1] Flowers was known as one of the earliest pioneers of hip hop. Flowers was involved in the disco and funk scene and used to hold block parties. Flowers is cited as having a "formative influence" on hip hop DJs[2]such as Grandmaster Flash[3] and Afrika Bambaataa in the early 1970s. In 1969, Grandmaster Flowers opened for James Brown at Yankee Stadium. Although an inspiration to many of hip hop's early greats - he is highly respected by those he influenced - Flowers never himself made it to the heights of his successors in hip hop culture. As he found himself being overtaken by the younger up-and-coming DJs at the end of the 1970s, Flowers succumbed to a life of hardship and dependence on hard drugs. He died in 1992.
 

tuckgod

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I don't think the disconnect is because that. If it was then ny hip hop would sound more like dancehall, grime, toronto



Outside of the tri state and Florida, Jamaicans barely exist.

There's plenty of Jamaicans in the 757... VA
 

bouncy

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lol see, i forgot to include slick rick on the list.

What i'm saying is all of these artist had at least one single on the radio with a heavy Jamaican/reggae influence during that era. If not a single, they DEF had a track like that on the album.

What I'm also saying is many of these rappers mentioned are of Carrib descent as well. That is going to influence the way you make music.
Again, it was because dancehall was the new in thing. Red Alert helped bring it to the masses when he played it on friday, and saturday. They weren't singles, it was just what dj's played to be different, then it became the norm in the mid 90's for mostly BROOKLYN artist.

Also, AGAIN, these people had caribbean backgrounds, but they didn't show it in their music until it became cool from dancehall taking off.

Look, we can go back, and forth, but you are not excepting what I'm trying to convey to you. I will say it one more time. When Red Alert made it cool to play dancehall, more people who weren't into rap started listening because of that. Then as time went on, some started incorporating it into their music to also be DIFFERENT from the rest, and it was the new cool thing to do! AND most of these artist were from brooklyn, and some from the bronx. Find me a rapper from Queens who did that. Then you go to diffrenet neighborhoods. Find me a rapper from Bed stuy who did that jamaican style. It's going to be hard to find. The rappers who did that were from either flatbush, east flatbush which is close to brownsville which explains smif'n'wessun, or crown heights. If you from NYC,a dn went to all the hoods, you should know this. I went all over NYC, except for staten island, so I could tell you the different neghborhoods had different vibes, and that influenced their styles. You should now this, man.
 

Blessup

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These dudes were not operating under carib music. They were operating under Afram music/culture, which was Soul/Funk/Disco.
First of all, If you are of Carib descent it's going to influence everything in your life. Them being of Carrib descent and hearing carib music growing up in addition to american music is going to influence their music, style of dj'ing etc.

This is getting pathethic.

The 3 FOUNDING FATHERS (Grandmaster Flash, Kool Herc, Afrika Bambaataa) all of caribbean descent, 2 actually BORN in the carrib (Kool Herc, GM Flash) yet we STILL have AA's in this thread denying Carib influence. :mjlol:

Keep lying to make yourself feel better.
 

Supa

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Using a little patois in a verse didn't mean you have a right to claim hip hop. Phife and Q Tip used to do that but 90% of their sound was based off sampling jazz. You mentioned Nas. What Jamaican influence was there on Illmatic? Again those were jazz and soul samples. The patois mc's like Smif and Wessun and Mos came much later. Dancehall didn't get live in NY until the 90's. You're trying to claim something that doesn't belong to you.

NY's if different from the rest of the country due to environment and lifestyle. It's a huge city while they're in rural/suburban areas.

I used to be in the South Bronx often to visit family. We were out there with boom boxes playing Brucie B tapes. We weren't listening to any reggae or dancehall. My family never played reggae in the crib. We didn't use your slang or dress like you. When summer came I don't know anyone who went to Jamaica. Everyone went to the Carolinas or other southern states to visit family. Yes NY has more Caribbean people than LA or Chicago but black Americans built hip hop. My maternal grandmother is from the islands and I have zero connection to them.
 

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Because Afrika Bambaataa, grandmaster flash, AND kool herc ALL have carribbean roots.

You gotta remember AT FIRST it wasn't "cool" to be of carrib descent. Many used to deny their Carrib heritage. Like how haitians used to deny being haitian in miami at first. Now look at them today.

And this is where the lies start. Yeah, they let it be known NOW, but back then no one was saying they were west indian, and didn't even mention it. You couldn't hear no west indian influence in their music. It was after reading articles about these people that it became known. So what happens, rewriting history is starting to happen.
 

Blessup

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Using a little patois in a verse didn't mean you have a right to claim hip hop. Phife and Q Tip used to do that but 90% of their sound was based off sampling jazz. You mentioned Nas. What Jamaican influence was there on Illmatic? Again those were jazz and soul samples. The patois mc's like Smif and Wessun and Mos came much later. Dancehall didn't get live in NY until the 90's. You're trying to claim something that doesn't belong to you.

NY's if different from the rest of the country due to environment and lifestyle. It's a huge city while they're in rural/suburban areas.

I used to be in the South Bronx often to visit family. We were out there with boom boxes playing Brucie B tapes. We weren't listening to any reggae or dancehall. My family never played reggae in the crib. We didn't use your slang or dress like you. When summer came I don't know anyone who went to Jamaica. Everyone went to the Carolinas or other southern states to visit family. Yes NY has more Caribbean people than LA or Chicago but black Americans built hip hop. My maternal grandmother is from the islands and I have zero connection to them.
Q TIP (Montsarrat) AND PHIFE(trini) are of CARRIBBEAN DESCENT.

The 3 Founding Fathers Grandmaster Flash, Kool Herc and Bambaataa are ALL of Caribb descent (Jamaica and Barbados). Of course it's going to play a part in the music my dude. WE HELPED BIRTH HIP HOP
 
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stop trying to write us out of our own history
@Blessup
I have a treat for you:
Reggae (/ˈrɛɡeɪ/) is a music genre that originated in Jamaica in the late 1960s. The term also denotes the modern popular music of Jamaica and its diaspora.[1] While sometimes used in a broad sense to refer to most types of popular Jamaican dance music, the term reggae more properly denotes a particular music style that was strongly influenced by traditional mento andcalypso music, as well as American jazz and rhythm and blues, especially the New Orleans R&B practiced by Fats Domino and Allen Toussaint.

Without us, you'd have nothing. Without you? Hip hop would exist.
 
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