Does the large Caribbean presence in NYC's Hip Hop scene explain the disconnect with other regions?

ogc163

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:jbhmm: The South Bronx is full of PR, DR, West Indians, Africans, and AA's. Lots of people from the Carribbean.

On my block there's a rasta spot where you see old Jamaicans drinking and playing dominos. On 167th street there is a Jamaican bakery. They not as deep as North Bronx and Gun Hill area but they in the South BX heavy too.

South BX in the years of hip-hop formation was not filled with West Indians. It ain't filled with West Indians even today, Africans are a modern group that have gained prevalence in the South BX. Dominican's were not deep in the South BX, the few Dominicans used to catch hell in the South BX growing up because they 1.a small minority 2. had a tendency to not assimilate like the ones in the Heights/Dyckman were able to do. PR's have always been heavy in the South BX, but DR's,Caribbeans, and Africans? Nah they were not deep. I would argue Black Hondurans in the 80's/90's were more prevalent in the South BX than all those groups combined.
 

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Dominicans and Mexicans are on the come up fast :wow:
Dominicans been here since the 60's a lot of MC's are half or full Dominican (AZ, JR Writer, Dave East, Fabolous, Juju, Juelz, Irv Gotti, etc.)

Africans especially from countries like Ghana and Gambia, Mexicans/Ecuadorians, and Afro-Hondurans seem to be the biggest groups to me coming up.
 
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ISO

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South BX in the years of hip-hop formation was not filled with West Indians. It ain't filled with West Indians even today, Africans are a modern group that have gained prevalence in the South BX. Dominican's were not deep in the South BX, the few Dominicans used to catch hell in the South BX growing up because they 1.a small minority 2. had a tendency to not assimilate like the ones in the Heights/Dyckman were able to do. PR's have always been heavy in the South BX, but DR's,Caribbeans, and Africans? Nah they were not deep. I would argue Black Hondurans in the 80's/90's were more prevalent in the South BX than all those groups combined.
Word? I didn't know Afro-Hondurans was deep since the 90's mostly see them in the Soundview area. They are easy to confuse with Dominicans.

I know Wild Cowboys set up shop in the South Bronx in the 90's. And that area around 170, Jerome, Concourse been predominately Dominican for as long as I can remember to be honest even have their parade there. High Bridge and the Heights is pretty much connected.
 
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AB Ziggy

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Dominicans been here since the 80's a lot of MC's are half or full Dominican.

Africans especially from countries like Ghana and Gambia, Mexicans/Ecuadorians, and Afro-Hondurans seem to be the biggest groups to me coming up.

Neglected to mention this of the African population boom. Especially Ghanaians. I know one doctor down by Burnside who practically THE go to doctor for that entire community.
 
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ogc163

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Yeah Black Hondurans have always been a big group in the South BX, and different parts of BK (Taxstone and Rowdy Rebel are Hondu). You were more likely to hear reggae at a South BX if it was a Black Honduran,Guatemalan, or Belizean DJ than a AA DJ. The South BX was overwhelmingly descendants of southern AA's when I moved to Co-op it was like night and day, a lot of cultural ish that would have gotten the side eye in the South BX was tolerated uptown (mainly Jamaicans rocking the skinny jeans b4 it became cool AND them nikkas never purchasing coats during the winter).
 

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Word? I didn't know Afro-Hondurans was deep since the 90's mostly see them in the Soundview era. They are easy to confuse with Dominicans.

I know Wild Cowboys set up shop in the South Bronx in the 90's. And that area around 170 and Concourse been predominately Dominican for as long as I can remember to be honest. High Bridge and the Heights is connected.

Yeah the Wild Cowboys were Black Dominicans and AA's and they from Beekman Ave./Treyside where the battle rapper Joe Lite is from and Neek Bucks used to claim. Black guatemalans were huge in setting up the 1090 set around prospect.
 
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ISO

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The Bronx might be the most diverse place in the country :wow:
 

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The Caribbean influence wasn't limited to the Bronx. I used to go to King Charles parties
throughout Queens and Brooklyn. For many of us, he was on the same level as Flash.
I believe he was Jamaican.

By '81/'82, you'd hear deejays spinning "Dangerous Diseases" by Michigan and Smiley
at parties. Yellowman, too.
 

ThiefyPoo

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The biggest lie in hip hop history is that rapping derived from Jamaican toasting. Rapping already existed in African American communties before Jamaicans immigranted to the United States. The Jamaican style of toasting is heavily influenced by African Americans.
Pardon my ignorance what is toasting ?
 

IllmaticDelta

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Pardon my ignorance what is toasting ?



Jive Talking and Toasting



“The Jives of Dr. Hepcat” by KVET-AM DJ Albert Lavada Durst, published in 1953.

I was reading Beth Lesser’s amazing Rub-a-Dub Style: The Roots of Modern Dancehall, which is available for free download here, and I found a quotation from Clive Chin that set me off on a wild goose chase through the roots of toasting. I have long had a fascination with the connection between toasting and hip hop and have written about that in this blog before, and presented on it at conference after I had the pleasure of interviewing DJ Kool Herc last year, but I hadn’t thoroughly ventured back to jive–until Beth Lesser.

Clive Chin, writes Lesser, remembers toaster Count Matchuki carrying around a book. “There was one he said he bought out of Beverly’s [record shop] back in the ‘60s. The book was called Jives and it had sort of slangs, slurs in it and he was reading it, looking it over, and he found that it would be something that he could explore and study, so he took that book and it helped him.” Lesser writes that this book of jive may have been a boo, written in 1953, The Jives of Dr. Hepcat, which was published by Albert Lavada Durst, a DJ on KVET-AM in Austin, Texas. This version (read the entire copy here) featured definitions for words and phrases commonly used by jive talking DJs like “threads,” which are clothes; “pad,” for house or apartment; “flip your lid,” for losing one’s balance mentally; and “chill,” to hold up or stop. Durst wrote in the introduction to his book, which sold for 50 cents, “In spinning a platter of some very popular band leader, I would come on something like this: ‘Jackson, here’s that man again, cool, calm, and a solid wig, he is laying a frantic scream that will strictly pad your skull, fall in and dig the happenings.’ Which is to say, the orchestra leader is a real classy singer and has a voice that most people would like. For instance, there was a jam session of topnotch musicians and everything was jumping and you would like to explain it to a hepster. These are the terms to use. ‘Gator take a knock down to those blow tops, who are upping some real crazy riffs and dropping them on a mellow kick and chappie the way they pull their lay hips our ship that they are from the land of razz ma tazz.’


Cab Calloway’s “Hepsters Dictionary: Language of Jive,” 1944 version.

I decided to search further and found there was another popular book of jive written before Dr. Hepcat, although it is likely that Matchuki obtained Durst’s version given the era and the content. But Cab Calloway had his own publication of jive called “Cab Calloway’s Hepster Dictionary: Language of Jive” which was first published in 1939 and then revised to add more words in a 1944 printing. Calloway was the original emcee, the master of ceremonies, the hepcat, who understood jive and brought it to those who wanted to become part of this culture. As frequent band leader at the Cotton Club in front of Duke Ellington’s band during performances that were broadcast all over the continent, and as star in a number of feature films, Calloway brought the language of Harlem, jive, to audiences uneducated in the dialect of the black musicians. He established jive as a form of discourse.


Interior of Cab Calloway’s “Hepsters Dictionary”

Some of the words in these dictionaries, and certainly the word “jive” itself, appear in the toasts of Count Matchuki, Lord Comic, and King Stitt. The style is similar as well, scatting over the music, punctuating the rhythm with verbal percussion, and boasting. Next week I will blog about the jive-talking American DJs like Vernon Winslow, Tommy Smalls, and Douglas Henderson, who influenced the Jamaican toasters since these similarities are fascinating as well.
Jive Talking and Toasting - Foundation SKA


Here is some additional information from Beth Lesser:

Hi Heather,

To continue the conversation from Facebook, this is what Steve Barrow wrote to me about the Hepcat book:
Count Machuki actually told me that he bought the magazine in Beverley’s ice-cream parlour, and that it was called ‘Jive’. Dan Burley did a ‘Jive Dictionary’ too. I used the quote in the ‘Rough Guide’ and in subsequent sleeve notes for Randy’s. Maybe Clive got the info from there ! I asked Count Machuki – where did you get your lyrics from ? and he told me from imitating various styles – even ‘British cockney’ as he called it… Then he said about the magazine called ‘Jive’, from ‘Harlem’, exact words !! Dan Burley turned out to be quite a character, an early ‘nationalist’ type of ideology, played piano, invented ‘skiffle’ [word] and claims to have invented the word ‘bebop’ [perhaps] But quite a few of Chuki’s genartioon looked to ‘harlem’ as the black ‘capital. Junior Tuckers dada was another, the one who wrote the Jamaican national anthem, and of course all the soundmen who could travel to the States in late 40s early 50s – Dodd, and Edwards in particular. They dug all that slang and imagery.

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Don't mix up talking before songs like radio DJs do as 'toasting' because it isnt. That's like saying spoken word is the same as rapping.

Read the article above and..

More on Jocko, one of the american dj's who was imitated in Jamaica


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"
Douglas "Jocko" Henderson ranks with Daddy O' Daylie and Hot Rod Hulbert as one of the original rhythm and blues radio disc jockeys. His smooth, swinging, rhymed talkovers were imitated by the jocks of the early rock and roll era, and became one of the major sources for the rap style. Though his influence on hip-hop was crucial, it took an indirect route as the model for the toasts of early Jamaican sound system deejays. Some say that Jocko's syndicated radio shows, beamed into the Caribbean from Miami provided the standard for Jamaican deejays. Another story claims that sound system promoter and record producer Coxsone Dodd encountered Jocko on one his record buying trips to the U.S., and encouraged his dee-jays to imitate Jocko's style. However his influence reached Jamaica, titles like "The Great Wuga Wuga" by Sir Lord Comic and "Ace from Space" by U. Roy were catch phrases directly appropriated from Jocko's bag of verbal tricks. When Kool DJ Herc adapted the Jamaican sound system to New York City party crowds, the stylized public address patter that accompanied his bass heavy program was rooted in Jocko's rhyming jive patter.

Jocko started in radio in the Baltimore of 1950, moving to Philadelphia, where he attained enough momentum to arrange a daily commute to New York for a second shift. It was in New York that he hosted "Jocko's Rocket Ship", a black oriented television dance party show that was the forerunner of "Soul Train". He also made many appearances as an M.C. of rhythm and blues shows and hosted large scale record hops that anticipated ballroom disco shows."

Jocko | Biography & History | AllMusic

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Definition of toasting in Jamaican culture

toasting, chatting, or deejaying is the act of talking or chanting, usually in a monotone melody, over a rhythm or beat by a deejay. The lyrics can be either improvised or pre-written. Toasting has been used in various African traditions, such as griots chanting over a drum beat, as well as in Jamaican music forms, such as dancehall, reggae, ska, dub, and lovers rock. Toasting's mix of talking and chanting may have influenced the development of MCing in US hip hop music. The combination of singing and toasting is known as singjaying.

In the late 1950s deejay toasting was developed by Count Machuki. He conceived the idea from listening to disc jockeys on American radio stations. He would do American jive over the music while selecting and playing R&B music. Deejays like Count Machuki working for producers would play the latest hits on traveling sound systems at parties and add their toasts or vocals to the music. These toasts consisted of comedy, boastful commentaries, chants, half-sung rhymes, rhythmic chants, squeals, screams, and rhymed storytelling.

Definition of "Toasts" in Black American culture

Part of the African American oral tradition is toasting (rhymed folk tales about various mythical folk heroes) and signifiying (Signifying refers to the act of using secret or double meanings of words to either communicate multiple meanings to different audiences, or to trick them. To the leader and chorus of a work song, for example, the term “captain” may be used to indicate discontent, while the overseer of the work simultaneously thinks it’s being used as a matter of respect.). Signifiying also involves taking concepts and situations and redefining them. It is part ingenuity, innovation, adaptation, and style. Stories, ideals, and songs can all be signified.


Traditional African American toasting
Toasting has been part of African American urban tradition since Reconstruction as part of a verbal art tradition, dating back to the griots of Africa. African American stories usually lauds the exploits of the clever and not entirely law-abiding trickster hero (not always human) who uses his wits to defeat his opponents.
Toasters continue the oral tradition by recounting the legends and myths of the community in venues ranging from street corner gatherings, bars, and community centers, to libraries and college campuses. As with oral traditions in general, and with other African American art forms as the blues, toasting uses a mixture of repetition and improvisation.
There are many versions of the best-known toasts, often conflicting in detail. Historically, the toast is very male- oriented, and many toasts contain profane or sexual language, although more family-oriented versions also exist.
Well known toasts include "Shine and the Titanic", "Dolemite", "Stack O Lee", "Jo Jo Gun," and "Signifyin' Monkey."
 
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