Does anyone else feel like solo comic book films are suffering from having universe building?

[MartyMcFly]

Most definitely. That's not even to say it can't be done right, because Marvel has done it right for the most part and we''ll see what DC does with suicide squad and the following joints, etc. But these movies being commercials for the next movie rather than being wholly self-contained flicks to hurt them a tad. I think that might be the reason I love guardians so much is because it felt like it was its own thing in its own part of the universe and didn't give a crap about trying to set up someone else's story or including characters due to a company mandate. the last spider man flick was definitely hurt by it, trying to set up a spider man universe when there was no need for it, let alone not enough characters to dictate a universe.

If we're relating back to comic books, it makes everything an event rather than an individual issue. Spider-Island was a great event but it's nothing compared to spider-man no more, which was one issue, fully self-contained, and hit every beat it needed to at once.

 

[Dominic Brehetto]

‘Captain America: Civil War’ And How ‘Squad Goal’ Comic Book Movies Have Pushed Humanity To The Margins

@Prodigal Syndicate Its an article at Gammasquad that talks about this exact thing, it's worth a read.

Good read. A lot of my own sentiments were echoed.

Pulled this part as well that I feel is a huge issue I have lately

"Civil War is an enormously engaging movie: It’s briskly paced, witty, and amplified by some fun, deftly-executed set pieces. Compared to Batman v. Superman, this thing is Citizen freakin’Kane, okay? But it still doesn’t contain a moment that enables the audience to emotionally relate to the characters the way Spider-Man 2 did. It entertains, but it doesn’t transport to the degree that, say,The Dark Knight or even Superman: The Movie did.

That doesn’t make Civil War a bad film and it doesn’t mean that movies that explore the trials of multiple comic book icons are inherently inferior to those that zero in on just one. But it’s a sign that the bigger the mob of infighting superheroes gets, the more difficult it becomes to leave a space in the crowd and let the audience in, too."

We've given up the smaller intimate stories and moments for bigger set pieces. Which is fine in some films but is it just going to get messier and convoluted and lose its heart and soul in favor of these big moments?

Maybe I'm weird but theres just something that always bothered me that the first glimpse of spider man we got from marvel was him holding caps shield doing the hero stance. Like he was there just for that money shot.

I'm a spider stan like @MartyMcFly and I care about him far more than any other character. It also rubbed me the wrong way they've already announced iron man is in his film. I don't know.

 

[Dominic Brehetto]

You want a self contained story, go watch a non-franchise movie. The whole point of these franchises is to build off of an established foundation, that's what people like and that's what they want but its not like there aren't plenty of other options available.


its like complaining that their aren't enough 30 minute villain of the week cartoon shows anymore. The old format just doesn't' keep people's attention anymore.

Proof? That's straight up conjecture and your opinion.

DOFP was self contained and very successful and universally praised.

If Nolan made a fourth self contained batman film it'd be a billion dollar box office giant easy.

 

[Dominic Brehetto]

Does anyone here not agree that if DC wasn't using BVS to springboard into the universe and just let the story breath by itself it wouldn't have improved the film?

 

[Dominic Brehetto]

Most definitely. That's not even to say it can't be done right, because Marvel has done it right for the most part and we''ll see what DC does with suicide squad and the following joints, etc. But these movies being commercials for the next movie rather than being wholly self-contained flicks to hurt them a tad. I think that might be the reason I love guardians so much is because it felt like it was its own thing in its own part of the universe and didn't give a crap about trying to set up someone else's story or including characters due to a company mandate. the last spider man flick was definitely hurt by it, trying to set up a spider man universe when there was no need for it, let alone not enough characters to dictate a universe.

If we're relating back to comic books, it makes everything an event rather than an individual issue. Spider-Island was a great event but it's nothing compared to spider-man no more, which was one issue, fully self-contained, and hit every beat it needed to at once.

I think it needs more balance.

I'm curious to see how spider man and Dr. Strange are. Those are the two films by marvel I'm the most interested in.

Good point with gotg. I have my problems with that film but it did feel like they didn't have to sacrifice it's own story just to connect with the universe.

 

[AnonymityX1000]

Does anyone here not agree that if DC wasn't using BVS to springboard into the universe and just let the story breath by itself it wouldn't have improved the film?

Fukk no. Very predictable this is where this thread was going.

 

[TKOK]

When a good portion of the movie is a set up for the sequels then yeah. Like Age of Ultron had to set up like 5 different movies.

 

[The_Sheff]

You want a self contained story, go watch a non-franchise movie. The whole point of these franchises is to build off of an established foundation, that's what people like and that's what they want but its not like there aren't plenty of other options available.


its like complaining that their aren't enough 30 minute villain of the week cartoon shows anymore. The old format just doesn't' keep people's attention anymore.

Exactly this. Its not a coincidence that most of the smash hit shows now are shows that follow a set story line from episode to episode and even season to season. People arent really rocking with the shows that perform a soft reset after every episode.

Marvel has been doing this thing right for the most part. Ant-Man didnt have every other Marvel character make an appearance, i think the only one was Falcon.

 

[MartyMcFly]

I think it needs more balance.

I'm curious to see how spider man and Dr. Strange are. Those are the two films by marvel I'm the most interested in.

Good point with gotg. I have my problems with that film but it did feel like they didn't have to sacrifice it's own story just to connect with the universe.

I think Dr. Strange, by its nature, will probably be more self-contained rather than bridging a gap. I think iron man being in homecoming is just to continue this mentorship role he has with Peter, which I do like because the two of them have a good chemistry. At the same time, I'm not sure how big of a role he will have in the movie either. But there are some key questions as to whether Peter signed the accords or not or maybe the story is about Tony trying to get him to sign. Or, and this is what I hope, spidey says fukk the accords I'm doing to do my thing because I can't risk Aunt may's life being in danger or knowing who I really am or the government knowing who i really am. I'm just a kid. You all may be cool with everyone knowing who you are but I've got something to protect. Plus I don't want to be an avenger anyway if this is the entry fee so thanks but no thanks.

That would see Pete back on the side of Cap in a natural way and create a bit of a rift between he and his mentor while also forcing him to do more on his own because there's a chance he could rely too much on Tony for tech and other shyt and stop relying on his own genius

 

[AquaCityBoy]

Exactly this. Its not a coincidence that most of the smash hit shows now are shows that follow a set story line from episode to episode and even season to season. People arent really rocking with the shows that perform a soft reset after every episode.

Movies are not TV shows.

 

[Kill Dat Noize]

You want a self contained story, go watch a non-franchise movie. The whole point of these franchises is to build off of an established foundation, that's what people like and that's what they want but its not like there aren't plenty of other options available.


its like complaining that their aren't enough 30 minute villain of the week cartoon shows anymore. The old format just doesn't' keep people's attention anymore.

i'm the opposite, i think they should be making standalone stories. i had trouble finishing daredevil on netflix precisely because of it's season long story arc. they could try and turn superheroes into dramas but it feels like an apologetic approach.

hour long, self contained stories would have been the way to go. each episode is like it's own mini movie. you could introduce so many more characters that way and do so many more interesting stories. i don't need 13 episodes fleshing out the origin.

as far as the movie universe is concerned again i think they would benefit more from self contained stories. they can still plant seeds for future crossovers without diluting the movies.

 

[The_Sheff]

Movies are not TV shows.

A simple answer that doesnt address the more nuanced point.

i'm the opposite, i think they should be making standalone stories. i had trouble finishing daredevil on netflix precisely because of it's season long story arc. they could try and turn superheroes into dramas but it feels like an apologetic approach.

hour long, self contained stories would have been the way to go. each episode is like it's own mini movie. you could introduce so many more characters that way and do so many more interesting stories. i don't need 13 episodes fleshing out the origin.

Sounds like the CW is for you. There is no way you could wrap up the greatness that is The Punisher in Daredevil Season 2 in an hour.

 

[Dominic Brehetto]

A simple answer that doesnt address the more nuanced point.

The nuanced point doesn't really stand either since theirs still a heavy blend of episodic shows out there. Go look at the ratings for shows like NCIS. X files came back to like 20 million viewers.

AND the vast majority of films are still stand alone or sequels with self contained stories

 

[KevCo]

@Prodigal Syndicate

Agree completely...i fear say, the solo batman film will suffer because they will have put other JL members into the movie, just because...even if it doesnt fit the story or make the movie better. Cap 3, while verygood, was basically a new avengers with spiderman thrown in taking time away from preveously established characters just to show the broader audience that Marvel has him back now. Spiderman was a big thing in the civil war comic, but the way the movie was going to play out vs the comic, he was not needed...shoulda been a quick post credits scene imo to preview him.

 

[The_Sheff]

The nuanced point doesn't really stand either since theirs still a heavy blend of episodic shows out there. Go look at the ratings for shows like NCIS. X files came back to like 20 million viewers.

AND the vast majority of films are still stand alone or sequels with self contained stories

Lets go down the list of shows people talk about as some of the greatest in recent history.

The Wire
The Walking Dead
The Sopranos
Breaking Bad
Mad Men
Sons of Anarchy
American Horror Story
Band of Brothers
Game of Thrones
True Detective

Its a clear pattern there, and those shows really catch the eye of the prime younger demographic. There are very few new hit episodic shows hitting the airwaves and the ones that remain popular like NCIS have a pretty substantial older viewing demographic.

Of course most movies are standalone stories. Most movies arent based on source material where a shared universe exists as comic movies clearly are.


Also what theater did yall watch Civil War in? In my theater the Spider Man bits got the most laughs and applause. Folks loved every bit of screen time he received. Are you speaking from a stance of what what the most sense story wise or what people actually enjoy seeing?