Confederate Flag Debate

xoxodede

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You and everyone else who quoted me are citing the same person from one state. Thats not a consensus.

I believe in free speech and think it's worth dying to defend. Does the fact that some white nationalists share my opinion for different reasons mean I automatically agree with all of their opinions?

No - we are showing you ALL the articles of succession by the Southern States who made them available. And they ALL mention SLAVERY -as their reason for succeeding.

They wanted the right to enslaved and expand slavery.

But, here you go again.


These full text for these documents can be found at Ordinances of Secession of the 13 Confederate States of America and the Civil War Trust, The Declaration of Causes of Seceding States. Specific underlined references to slavery are highlights made the by the author.


South Carolina, articles of secession, adopted December 24, 1860.


“The ends for which the Constitution was framed are declared by itself to be “to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity.”

“These ends it endeavored to accomplish by a Federal Government, in which each State was recognized as an equal, and had separate control over its own institutions. The right of property in slaves was recognized by giving to free persons distinct political rights, by giving them the right to represent, and burthening them with direct taxes for three-fifths of their slaves; by authorizing the importation of slaves for twenty years; and by stipulating for the rendition of fugitives from labor.

“We affirm that these ends for which this Government was instituted have been defeated, and the Government itself has been made destructive of them by the action of the non-slaveholding States. Those States have assume the right of deciding upon the propriety of our domestic institutions; and have denied the rights of property established in fifteen of the States and recognized by the Constitution; they have denounced as sinful the institution of slavery; they have permitted open establishment among them of societies, whose avowed object is to disturb the peace and to eloign [sic] the property of the citizens of other States. They have encouraged and assisted thousands of our slaves to leave their homes; and those who remain, have been incited by emissaries, books and pictures to servile insurrection.

For twenty-five years this agitation has been steadily increasing, until it has now secured to its aid the power of the common Government.... A geographical line has been drawn across the Union, and all the States north of that line have united in the election of a man to the high office of President of the United States, whose opinions and purposes are hostile to slavery. He is to be entrusted with the administration of the common Government, because he has declared that that “Government cannot endure permanently half slave, half free,” and that the public mind must rest in the belief that slavery is in the course of ultimate extinction.

This sectional combination for the submersion of the Constitution, has been aided in some of the States by elevating to citizenship, persons who, by the supreme law of the land, are incapable of becoming citizens; and their votes have been used to inaugurate a new policy, hostile to the South, and destructive of its beliefs and safety.



Mississippi, Ordinance of Secession adopted January 9, 1861
Excerpt from the declaration or articles of secession.

“Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery – the greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the product, which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of commerce of the earth. These products are peculiar to the climate verging on the tropical regions, and by an imperious law of nature, none but the black race can bear exposure to the tropical sun. These products have become necessities of the world, and a blow at slavery is a blow at commerce and civilization. That blow has been long aimed at the institution, and was at the point of reaching its consummation. There was no choice left us but submission to the mandates of abolition, or a dissolution of the Union, whose principles had been subverted to work out our ruin.



Alabama, Ordinance of Secession adopted January 11 , 1861
No articles of secession available, but from the Ordinance of Secession:

“Whereas, the election of Abraham Lincoln and Hannibal Hamlin to the offices of president and vice-president of the United States of America, by a sectional party, avowedly hostile to the domestic institutions and to the peace and security of the people of the State of Alabama, preceded by many and dangerous infractions of the constitution of the United States by many of the States and people of the Northern section, is a political wrong of so insulting and menacing a character as to justify the people of the State of Alabama in the adoption of prompt and decided measures for their future peace and security, therefore:....”



Georgia, Ordinance of Secession adopted January 19, 1861
The Georgia Declaration (articles) of Secession presents a detailed history of the growth of the anti-slavery movement as the central justification for secession. The following is from the opening paragraph from the declaration:

“The people of Georgia having dissolved their political connection with the Government of the United States of America, present to their confederates and the world the causes which have led to the separation. For the last ten years we have had numerous and serious causes of complaint against our non-slaveholding confederate States with reference to the subject of African slavery. They have endeavored to weaken our security, to disturb our domestic peace and tranquility, and persistently refused to comply with their express constitutional obligations to us in reference to that property, and by the use of their power in the Federal Government have striven to deprive us of an equal enjoyment of the common Territories of the Republic. This hostile policy of our confederates has been pursued with every circumstance of aggravation which could arouse the passions and excite the hatred of our people, and has placed the two sections of the Union for many years past in the condition of virtual civil war.

....

“The question of slavery was the great difficulty in the way of the formation of the Constitution. While the subordination and the political and social inequality of the African race was fully conceded by all, it was plainly apparent that slavery would soon disappear from what are now the non-slave-holding States of the original thirteen. The opposition to slavery was then, as now, general in those States and the Constitution was made with direct reference to that fact. But a distinct abolition party was not formed in the United States for more than half a century after the Government went into operation. The main reason was that the North, even if united, could not control both branches of the Legislature during any portion of that time.”



Texas, Ordinance of Secession February 23, 1861, popular vote 46,153 in favor, 14,747 against. Excerpt from the articles of secession.

“In all the non-slave-holding States, in violation of that good faith and comity which should exist between entirely distinct nations, the people have formed themselves into a great sectional party, now strong enough in numbers to control the affairs of each of those States, based upon an unnatural feeling of hostility to these Southern States and their beneficent and patriarchal system of African slavery, proclaiming the debasing doctrine of equality of all men, irrespective of race or color – a doctrine at war with nature, in opposition to the experience of mankind, and in violation of the plainest revelations of Divine Law. They demand the abolition of negro slavery throughout the confederacy, the recognition of political equality between the white and negro races, and avow their determination to press on their crusade against us, so long as a negro slave remains in these States.

....

“We hold as undeniable truths that the governments of the various States, and of the confederacy itself, were established exclusively by the white race, for themselves and their posterity; that the African race had no agency in their establishment; that they were rightfully held and regarded as an inferior and dependent race, and in that condition only could their existence in this country be rendered beneficial or tolerable.

“That in this free government all white men are and of right ought to be entitled to equal civil and political rights; that the servitude of the African race, as existing in these States, is mutually beneficial to both bond and free, and is abundantly authorized and justified by the experience of mankind, and the revealed will of the Almighty Creator, as recognized by all Christian nations; while the destruction of the existing relations between the two races, as advocated by our sectional enemies, would bring inevitable calamities upon both and desolation upon the fifteen slave-holding states.

“By the secession of six of the slave-holding States, and the certainty that others will speedily do likewise, Texas has no alternative but to remain in an isolated connection with the North, or unite her destinies with the South.”



Virginia, Ordinance of Secession adopted by convention April 17, 1861; ratified by vote 131,201 to 37451 May 23, 1861. No articles of secession. Quote from the ordinance of secession:

“The people of Virginia in their ratification of the Constitution of the United States of America, adopted by them in convention on the twenty-fifth day of June, in the year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and eighty-eight, having declared that the powers granted under said Constitution were derived from the people of the United States and might be resumed whensoever the same should be perverted to their injury and oppression, and the Federal Government having perverted said powers not only to the injury of the people of Virginia, but to the oppression of the Southern slave-holding States.”



Arkansas, Ordinance of Secession adopted May 6, 1861
No articles of secession. Excerpt from the Ordinance of Secession:

“Whereas, in addition to the well-founded causes of complaint set forth by this convention, in resolutions adopted on the 11th of March, A.D. 1861, against the sectional party now in power in Washington City, headed by Abraham Lincoln, he has, in the face of resolutions passed by this convention pledging the State of Arkansas to resist to the last extremity any attempt on the part of such power to coerce any State that had seceded from the old Union, proclaimed to the world that war should be waged against such States until they should be compelled to submit to their rule, and large forces to accomplish this have by this same power been called out, and are now being marshaled to carry out this inhuman design; and to longer submit to such rule, or remain in the old Union of the United States, would be disgraceful and ruinous to the State of Arkansas.”

Kentucky, Ordinance of Secession adopted November 20, 1861
No articles of secession. Excerpt from the Ordinance of Secession:

“Whereas, the Federal Constitution, which created the Government of the United States, was declared by the framers thereof to be the supreme law of the land, and was intended to limit and did expressly limit the powers of said Government to certain general specified purposes, and did expressly reserve to the States and people all other powers whatever, and the President and Congress have treated this supreme law of the Union with contempt and usurped to themselves the power to interfere with the rights and liberties of the States and the people against the expressed provisions of the Constitution, and have thus substituted for the highest forms of national liberty and constitutional government a central despotism founded upon the ignorant prejudices of the masses of Northern society, and instead of giving protection with the Constitution to the people of fifteen States of this Union have turned loose upon them the unrestrained and raging passions of mobs and fanatics, and because we now seek to hold our liberties, our property, our homes, and our families under the protection of the reserved powers of the States, have blockaded our ports, invaded our soil, and waged war upon our people for the purpose of subjugating us to their will;....”

The following states appeared to have no specific reference to slavery in their ordinances of secession and articles of secession were not available:

  • Louisiana, Ordinance of Secession adopted January 26, 1861
  • Florida, Ordinance of Secession adopted January 11, 1861
  • North Carolina, Ordinance of Secession adopted May 20, 1861
  • Tennessee, Ordinance of Secession sent to conference May 6, 1861, adopted 104,471 to 47,183 on June 8 1861
  • Missouri, Ordinance of Secession adopted October 31, 1861
 

you're NOT "n!ggas"

FKA ciroq drobama
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@xoxodede I'm sorry but did I lie somewhere??? :gucci: What do you think these people are talking about when they mention "pride and heritage"??? Why all the flags, memorabilia, and battle re-enactments to this day if not for the fact that they cherish this era in their history??? There's one coin (slavery) two sides :yeshrug:
 

xoxodede

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@xoxodede I'm sorry but did I lie somewhere??? :gucci: What do you think these people are talking about when they mention "pride and heritage"??? Why all the flags, memorabilia, and battle re-enactments to this day if not for the fact that they cherish this era in their history??? There's one coin (slavery) two sides :yeshrug:

The issue is you try to bring AADOS/DACS into every comment you make. Why?

No all of them are not -- "descendants of slave owners" -- many of them are just White folks who lived in the Confederate States (and some supporters - don't even have relatives that lived in the South) and their ancestors supported slavery, worked on plantations, borrowed an enslaved person -- hated Black people --like most of them -- -- and shared the common belief that Black people are less than human and "savage" -- and should be enslaved.

And AADOS are not coming together for "Hate and Heritage" -- we are already together -- we are just putting a proper label on our story in America for a specific claim.

We are not waving flags -- and what not.

You tried to do a comparison -- and it was weak and unwarranted.
 

GPBear

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Doesn't really bother me if someone wants to fly it outside their house. 1st amendment and whatnot. But it's outrageous that we still have municipalities in America in 2018 that fly that shyt. gtfoh.
The entire State of Texas represents it regularly. :heh:

Six flags over Texas - Wikipedia

It's in their seal, too :francis:

1961Rev.png
 

GPBear

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Slavery was never the cause of the war. It was the battle of states rights vs the formation of an all powerful central government. Slavery is the emotional manipulation to get people to forget that the federal government declared war on it's own people and bombed them into submission.

And that's a trick the federal government would continue to use for years after, whether its Waco, operation MOVE in Philadelphia and anyone else who dares oppose them
You've been reading an awful lot of right wing propaganda. :mjpls:

The "rights" that the southern states were fighting for was the right to keep slaves...
Slavery had been a mounting issue for decades, the founding fathers discussed it and purposefully wrote into the constitution that no laws could be written on slavery until 1808.

Article I, section 9: Migration or Importation of such Persons as any of the States now existing shall think proper to admit, shall not be prohibited by the Congress prior to the Year one thousand eight hundred and eight.

They knew slavery was a major issue that was going to create national instability.
The 20 years of Antebellum America are replete with bullshyt compromises (not to mention the 3/5 clause) and bloody skirmishes along borders between slave and free states.

Bleeding Kansas - Wikipedia
Missouri Compromise - Wikipedia
 

Yaboysix

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Them damn flags don't bother me. I'm from the South. I ain't know them shyts where perceived as bad till I started browsing this site lol
 

xoxodede

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Them damn flags don't bother me. I'm from the South. I ain't know them shyts where perceived as bad till I started browsing this site lol

Are you Black American?

Also, that sounds weird AF. I don't know any Black people from the South -- who don't know what the flag represents -- or thinks it's cool - or Ok.

I would think any who thinks it nothing and it doesn't bother them - are not aware of the history of the flag - and what it really means.

resistance-to-civil-rights.jpg


Gaines-Foster-INTERIOR-2.jpg


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1*FhOlDrC-sz_jbU_wcPzfuw.jpeg


The Confederate Flag was used as a symbol for KKK violence, lynching, segregation -- and enslavement of Black people.
 

you're NOT "n!ggas"

FKA ciroq drobama
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The issue is you try to bring AADOS/DACS into every comment you make. Why?

No all of them are not -- "descendants of slave owners" -- many of them are just White folks who lived in the Confederate States (and some supporters - don't even have relatives that lived in the South) and their ancestors supported slavery, worked on plantations, borrowed an enslaved person -- hated Black people --like most of them -- -- and shared the common belief that Black people are less than human and "savage" -- and should be enslaved.

And AADOS are not coming together for "Hate and Heritage" -- we are already together -- we are just putting a proper label on our story in America for a specific claim.

We are not waving flags -- and what not.

You tried to do a comparison -- and it was weak and unwarranted.

:rudy: but I don't bring AADOS/DACS/ into every comment, don't be ridiculous. But if I do, it's definitely to make a point.

I'm aware not all were slave owners, DOSO was said out of convenience rather than facts. I mean what would you rather? Beneficiaries of African American Chattel Slavery? (BOAACS?) Whatever the acronym is, the point is that a sense of cultural relevance and esteem is drawn from the very same thing you all say distinguishes our identity. That's the reason hundreds of thousands who didn't own a single slave were willing to sacrifice their life. That's the reason millions over 1.5 centuries continue to honor it today. You can't have it one way where it means something noble to you and it doesn't to the other side. I mean... they ARE the perpetrators of this entire thing.

None of that is to say AADOS are coming together on hate, or waving flags, etc. It's just an acknowledgement that the narratives and perspectives are wildly different, and they'll drive the direction of political discourse no matter what we may personally feel. So yeah, don't shoot the messenger :hubie:
 

xoxodede

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:rudy: but I don't bring AADOS/DACS/ into every comment, don't be ridiculous. But if I do, it's definitely to make a point.

I'm aware not all were slave owners, DOSO was said out of convenience rather than facts. I mean what would you rather? Beneficiaries of African American Chattel Slavery? (BOAACS?) Whatever the acronym is, the point is that a sense of cultural relevance and esteem is drawn from the very same thing you all say distinguishes our identity. That's the reason hundreds of thousands who didn't own a single slave were willing to sacrifice their life. That's the reason millions over 1.5 centuries continue to honor it today. You can't have it one way where it means something noble to you and it doesn't to the other side. I mean... they ARE the perpetrators of this entire thing.

None of that is to say AADOS are coming together on hate, or waving flags, etc. It's just an acknowledgement that the narratives and perspectives are wildly different, and they'll drive the direction of political discourse no matter what we may personally feel. So yeah, don't shoot the messenger :hubie:

D4qx.gif
 
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