Confederate Flag Debate

invalid

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Slavery was never the cause of the war. It was the battle of states rights vs the formation of an all powerful central government. Slavery is the emotional manipulation to get people to forget that the federal government declared war on it's own people and bombed them into submission.

And that's a trick the federal government would continue to use for years after, whether its Waco, operation MOVE in Philadelphia and anyone else who dares oppose them

Breh, we have a copy of a letter that was written by the man who owned my 2nd Great Grandfather (who was also his father), that was sent to President Lincoln, where he explicitly states what he understood to be the reason for the war and to let the President know that he wanted to be in full compliance and good standing with the Union. That reason was slavery.

This man was a wealthy Georgia banker and planter.
His father helped build the University of Georgia.
His daughter was married to a Governor of Georgia that served as a General in the Confederacy.

He was of particular interest to Lincoln when it came to assessing the debt of planters and landowners throughout Georgia. Lincoln noted that, after the war, he must have been the poorest man in all of Georgia because everyone was in debt to him. As one of the wealthiest bankers in the state, he essentially funded the Georgia Confederate Army.
 

Devilinurear

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Jim Crow laws were local, meaning if you didn't like it you could move. And lots of black people did move up north and out west.

As far as segregation, I'm on record here saying integration was a mistake. Yea we had less than, but building things always takes time and there are always setbacks. Black people would have been better off doing for self instead of handing over their children and their future to avoid the hard work of being self sufficient

You must not understand how racism works and are a fool to believe white people would be fair in jobs.
 

invalid

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I honestly don't get that upset seeing the confederate flag because the CSA only existed for four years whereas the United States has been around for nearly 250 years and black people have caught more hell under the American flag. Nonetheless the confederates were traitors and should not be celebrated and the generals and politicians that served in the confederacy should have been executed or/and received life sentences for their betrayal.

I have a problem with it.
The Confederate flag is a symbol of state sanctioned terrorism.
Slavery was domestic terrorism.
And I'm very irked that black people are very lackadaisical about it.
It is the equivalent to the swastika and the Nazi state to the Jews.
We should be taking a hard, no nonsense stance against any symbols that represented or personified the "idea" of African subjugation by any means and by all cost in the Americas.
 

Egomaniacal1

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You backed down from him :hhh:

Should have pressed the issue about that fakkit ass flag

He didn't want any smoke after that white boy was looking like he was ready to rumble. At least tell him the real issue was that fukking racist ass flag.

B-b-b-but i'm running late for work. :snoop:
 
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I know this is the internet where everything is black and white and there's no room for nuance, but the civil war wasn't fought to end slavery. Even Lincoln said if he could end the war without freeing a single slave he would...

With that said, on the issue of a massive powerful federal government vs. Individual states having the right to govern themselves, the South was probably right. The federal government as we know it has only grown larger and more corrupt. And the centralization of all that power has created a class of people who are above regular citizens and above the law...

Please stop with this Neo-Confederate myth.

Alexander Stevenson's Cornerstone speech and the Confederate States' Articles of Succession state otherwise. The Confederate states were actually against state's rights. They were against the non-enforcement of the Fugitive Slave Act which northern non-slave holding states ignored.



Each state's Declaration of Secession below:
South Carolina
Mississippi
Florida
Alabama
Georgia
Louisiana
Texas
Virginia
Arkansas
North Carolina
Tennessee

Missouri
Kentucky


======

"I wrote you about my disgust at reading the Reunion speeches: It has since been increased by reading Christians report. I am certainly glad I wasn’t there. According to Christian the Virginia people were the abolitionists & the Northern people were pro-slavery. He says slavery was "a patriarchal" institution – So were polygamy & circumcision. Ask Hugh if he has been circumcised. Christian quotes what the Old Virginians – said against slavery. True; but why didn’t he quote what the modern Virginians said in favor of it – Mason, Hunter, Wise &c. Why didn’t he state that a Virginia Senator (Mason) was the author of the Fugitive Slave law – & why didn’t he quote The Virginia Code (1860) that made it a crime to speak against slavery, or to teach a negro to read the Lord’s prayer. Now while I think as badly of slavery as Horace Greeley did I am not ashamed that my family were slaveholders. It was our inheritance – Neither am I ashamed that my ancestors were pirates & cattle thieves. People must be judged by the standard of their own age. If it was right to own slaves as property it was right to fight for it. The South went to war on account of Slavery. South Carolina went to war – as she said in her Secession proclamation – because slavery wd. not be secure under Lincoln. South Carolina ought to know what was the cause for her seceding. . . . I am not ashamed of having fought on the side of slavery – a soldier fights for his country – right or wrong – he is not responsible for the political merits of the cause he fights in. The South was my country." - John S. Mosby

03921.21p1.web_.jpg
 
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richaveli83

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I have a problem with it.
The Confederate flag is a symbol of state sanctioned terrorism.
Slavery was domestic terrorism.
And I'm very irked that black people are very lackadaisical about it.
It is the equivalent to the swastika and the Nazi state to the Jews.
We should be taking a hard, no nonsense stance against any symbols that represented or personified the "idea" of African subjugation by any means and by all cost in the Americas.
I see what your saying but like I said in my original post black people have caught more hell and continue to catch hell under the American flag. Some of the most racist presidents in this country were not even from states that were a part of the Confederates.
 

Lord_nikon

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I honestly don't get that upset seeing the confederate flag because the CSA only existed for four years whereas the United States has been around for nearly 250 years and black people have caught more hell under the American flag. Nonetheless the confederates were traitors and should not be celebrated and the generals and politicians that served in the confederacy should have been executed or/and received life sentences for their betrayal.

Yeah, I was about to type something similar to your post, The Confederacy was transformed into the the union and slavery was only modified not abolished. :yeshrug:


And CaCs only display or like the flag because it's their equivalent german swastika flag:russ: :yeshrug: ,,,,,,,, let me stop because Cacs and that flag don't make sense ,,,
 

xoxodede

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Slavery was a major factor in the South seceding from the Union.

Are you serious:? Stop listening to YouTube faux historians.

Read the Articles of Secession.

Slavery and Justifications for Southern Secession in Their Own Words

The Confederate Cause in the Words of Its Leaders - The Atlantic

This examination should begin in South Carolina, the site of our present and past catastrophe. South Carolina was the first state to secede, two months after the election of Abraham Lincoln. It was in South Carolina that the Civil War began, when the Confederacy fired on Fort Sumter. The state’s casus belli was neither vague nor hard to comprehend:

...A geographical line has been drawn across the Union, and all the States north of that line have united in the election of a man to the high office of President of the United States, whose opinions and purposes are hostile to slavery. He is to be entrusted with the administration of the common Government, because he has declared that that “Government cannot endure permanently half slave, half free,” and that the public mind must rest in the belief that slavery is in the course of ultimate extinction. This sectional combination for the submersion of the Constitution, has been aided in some of the States by elevating to citizenship, persons who, by the supreme law of the land, are incapable of becoming citizens; and their votes have been used to inaugurate a new policy, hostile to the South, and destructive of its beliefs and safety.

In citing slavery, South Carolina was less an outlier than a leader, setting the tone for other states, including Mississippi:

Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery—the greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the product which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of commerce of the earth. These products are peculiar to the climate verging on the tropical regions, and by an imperious law of nature, none but the black race can bear exposure to the tropical sun. These products have become necessities of the world, and a blow at slavery is a blow at commerce and civilization. That blow has been long aimed at the institution, and was at the point of reaching its consummation. There was no choice left us but submission to the mandates of abolition, or a dissolution of the Union, whose principles had been subverted to work out our ruin…

Louisiana:

As a separate republic, Louisiana remembers too well the whisperings of European diplomacy for the abolition of slavery in the times of annexation not to be apprehensive of bolder demonstrations from the same quarter and the North in this country. The people of the slave holding States are bound together by the same necessity and determination to preserve African slavery.

Alabama:

Upon the principles then announced by Mr. Lincoln and his leading friends, we are bound to expect his administration to be conducted. Hence it is, that in high places, among the Republican party, the election of Mr. Lincoln is hailed, not simply as it change of Administration, but as the inauguration of new principles, and a new theory of Government, and even as the downfall of slavery. Therefore it is that the election of Mr. Lincoln cannot be regarded otherwise than a solemn declaration, on the part of a great majority of the Northern people, of hostility to the South, her property and her institutions—nothing less than an open declaration of war—for the triumph of this new theory of Government destroys the property of the South, lays waste her fields, and inaugurates all the horrors of a San Domingo servile insurrection, consigning her citizens to assassinations, and. her wives and daughters to pollution and violation, to gratify the lust of half-civilized Africans.

Texas:

...in this free government all white men are and of right ought to be entitled to equal civil and political rights; that the servitude of the African race, as existing in these States, is mutually beneficial to both bond and free, and is abundantly authorized and justified by the experience of mankind, and the revealed will of the Almighty Creator, as recognized by all Christian nations; while the destruction of the existing relations between the two races, as advocated by our sectional enemies, would bring inevitable calamities upon both and desolation upon the fifteen slave-holding states....

None of this was new. In 1858, the eventual president of the Confederacy Jefferson Davis threatened secession should a Republican be elected to the presidency:

I say to you here as I have said to the Democracy of New York, if it should ever come to pass that the Constitution shall be perverted to the destruction of our rights so that we shall have the mere right as a feeble minority unprotected by the barrier of the Constitution to give an ineffectual negative vote in the Halls of Congress, we shall then bear to the federal government the relation our colonial fathers did to the British crown, and if we are worthy of our lineage we will in that event redeem our rights even if it be through the process of revolution.


Jefferson Davis :

You too know, that among us, white men have an equality resulting from a presence of a lower caste, which cannot exist where white men fill the position here occupied by the servile race. The mechanic who comes among us, employing the less intellectual labor of the African, takes the position which only a master-workman occupies where all the mechanics are white, and therefore it is that our mechanics hold their position of absolute equality among us.

Black slavery as the basis of white equality was a frequent theme for slaveholders. In his famous “Cotton Is King” speech, James Henry Hammond compared the alleged wage slavery of the North with black slavery—and white equality—in the South:

The difference between us is, that our slaves are hired for life and well compensated; there is no starvation, no begging, no want of employment among our people, and not too much employment either. Yours are hired by the day, not cared for, and scantily compensated, which may be proved in the most painful manner, at any hour in any street of your large towns. Why, you meet more beggars in one day, in any single street of the city of New York, than you would meet in a lifetime in the whole South.

We do not think that whites should be slaves either by law or necessity. Our slaves are black, of another and inferior race. The status in which we have placed them is an elevation. They are elevated from the condition in which God first created them, by being made our slaves. None of that race on the whole face of the globe can be compared with the slaves of the South. They are happy, content, unaspiring, and utterly incapable, from intellectual weakness, ever to give us any trouble by their aspirations. Yours are white, of your own race; you are brothers of one blood. They are your equals in natural endowment of intellect, and they feel galled by their degradation.

On the eve of secession, Georgia Governor Joseph E. Brown concurred:

Among us the poor white laborer is respected as an equal. His family is treated with kindness, consideration and respect. He does not belong to the menial class. The negro is in no sense of the term his equal. He feels and knows this. He belongs to the only true aristocracy, the race of white men. He black no masters boots, and bows the knee to no one save God alone. He receives higher wages for his labor than does the laborer of any other portion of the world, and he raises up his children with the knowledge, that they belong to no inferior cast, but that the highest members of the society in which he lives, will, if their conduct is good, respect and treat them as equals.

Thus in the minds of these Southern nationalists, the destruction of slavery would not merely mean the loss of property but the destruction of white equality, and thus of the peculiar Southern way of life:

If the policy of the Republicans is carried out, according to the programme indicated by the leaders of the party, and the South submits, degradation and ruin must overwhelm alike all classes of citizens in the Southern States. The slave-holder and non-slave-holder must ultimately share the same fate—all be degraded to a position of equality with free negroes, stand side by side with them at the polls, and fraternize in all the social relations of life; or else there will be an eternal war of races, desolating the land with blood, and utterly wasting and destroying all the resources of the country.
Mississippi Senator John Sharp Williams in 1904:

Local self-government temporarily destroyed may be recovered and ultimately retained. The other thing for which we fought is so complex in its composition, so delicate in its breath, so incomparable in its symmetry, that, being once destroyed, it is forever destroyed. This other thing for which we fought was the supremacy of the white man’s civilization in the country which he proudly claimed his own; “in the land which the Lord his God had given him;” founded upon the white man’s code of ethics, in sympathy with the white man’s traditions and ideals.

 

Larry Lambo

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I have a problem with it.
The Confederate flag is a symbol of state sanctioned terrorism.
Slavery was domestic terrorism.
And I'm very irked that black people are very lackadaisical about it.
It is the equivalent to the swastika and the Nazi state to the Jews.
We should be taking a hard, no nonsense stance against any symbols that represented or personified the "idea" of African subjugation by any means and by all cost in the Americas.

Are you against the American flag as well. Slavery was sanctioned under that flag from 1776-1863, and then the outright legal subjugation of black people was sanctioned under that flag for another 100 years.
 

invalid

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I see what your saying but like I said in my original post black people have caught more hell and continue to catch hell under the American flag. Some of the most racist presidents in this country were not even from states that were a part of the Confederates.

I get it. And I feel you regarding the current flag.
But I view the Confederacy a little bit different and as a summation of the preceding 200 years of black enslavement, and not just the couple of years that it was a legal state.
And with that angle, it's even worse than the current flag that we have.
 

xoxodede

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Slavery was never the cause of the war. It was the battle of states rights vs the formation of an all powerful central government. Slavery is the emotional manipulation to get people to forget that the federal government declared war on it's own people and bombed them into submission.

And that's a trick the federal government would continue to use for years after, whether its Waco, operation MOVE in Philadelphia and anyone else who dares oppose them

Please stop this.

NO. It was THE ONLY cause of the war. The States right to enslave blacks -- and continue to spread slavery to other locations.

I hope you are not AADOS saying this mess.

Cause I'm sure - they didn't think it was emotional manipulation. And submission for WHAT?

4CBF5E9C00000578-5787275-image-a-74_1527690961433.jpg


along with the other the 4 Million enslaved Black people in the Southern States.

I will say this -- they didn't do it cause they LOVE nor like Black people -- but one side didn't want to deal with slavery -- and deal with the Fugitive Slave Act -- and one side wanted slavery at any cost -- THE RIGHT to own slaves at any cost.

But, the CW was because of slavery.
 
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richaveli83

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Yeah, I was about to type something similar to your post, The Confederacy was transformed into the the union and slavery was only modified not abolished. :yeshrug:


And CaCs only display or like the flag because it's their equivalent german swastika flag:russ: :yeshrug: ,,,,,,,, let me stop because Cacs and that flag don't make sense ,,,
shyt is amusing seeing them with that flag and the swastika. I'm like they lost the war(s). Hitler was a coward and instead of going out like a soldier or surrendering he went out like bytch and killed himself! :russ:
 

invalid

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Are you against the American flag as well. Slavery was sanctioned under that flag from 1776-1863, and then the outright legal subjugation of black people was sanctioned under that flag for another 100 years.

I think it's a question of ideas.
Yes, I have a problem with the current American flag and that slavery and Jim Crow continued to be sanctioned under that flag.
However, slavery and Jim Crow, although legally sanctioned, still sat in direct opposition with the ideas that the current flag represents.
So this is a bit more tolerable than the Confederate flag which represented the idea of outright subjugation of African people in the Americas and leveraging the ability to do so through individual state rights.
 
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