Bernie Sanders Does Not Want To Abolishing Police Departments

Pressure

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I understand leftist being unhappy with Bernie on this but The Coli neo-libs in here are just being disingenuous :hubie:

You know if Bernie called for abolishing police they would be outraged. Bernie would be blamed for giving Trump ammo for the election, call him unrealistic and say the fact he's calling for abolishing police is just one of the reasons he lost the election :unimpressed:

Looking at policing merely through an economic and not a moral lens is an absurd proposition. I also support the abolition of ICE - for moral reasons. :umad:


Bernie lost because he didn't resonate well enough with black people. That narrative isn't changing :russell:
 

GnauzBookOfRhymes

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It's 4am don't expect an essay

His fence sitting is exhausting and this pandering routine that does to the white middle class disgusts me.

I'll try and write something up later today that suits your liking.

LMAO I don't even like Sanders, but the fact that ppl will complain about these policy proposals is proof positive that a lot of the "activists" behind many of these policies are fukking idiots who claim to represent more people than they actually do.
 

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his answer was "ok" for a normal politician, but i do expect a more systemic analysis from a democratic socialist. the only part of his analysis of police that is systemic is his speaking of them in a pro union way by advocating for higher wages and whatnot. he should also understand their role as the enforcement arm of capitalist oppression.
The issue is that he was literally writing to Chuck Schumer regarding what to include in the current legislation. It baffles me that people critique Bernie for being too far-left and unrealistic, then when he's trying to directly influence current legislation and proposes something borderline realistic in the current environment (would still be almost impossible to pass even if Biden wins and Dems take the Senate, but at least it's in the discussion), suddenly a Trump supporter and two centrists are attacking him for not being radical enough.
 

88m3

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"What you need are—I didn’t call for more money for police departments. I called for police departments that have well-educated, well-trained, well-paid professionals. And, too often around this country right now, you have police officers who take the job at very low payment, don’t have much education, don’t have much training—and I want to change that. I also called for the transformation of police departments into—understanding that many police departments and cops deal every day with issues of mental illness, deal with issues of addiction, and all kinds of issues which should be dealt with by mental-health professionals or others, and not just by police officers".


What did Hogan used to say? Hire *applause* more *applause* woman *applause* cops *applause*.


:pachaha:
 

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1. shytty people are being hired as cops. Those shytty people then go on to make bad decisions.
2. The problem isn't the talent pool. That's a myth. Plenty of good individuals who would go on to make good cops are not being considered for the role.
Not being considered why? Are they even applying? Because I have yet to know anyone without a record who ever wanted to be a cop and couldn't find a place that would hire them. Like I said earlier, a lot of departments have MAD vacancies and are reduced to hiring re-treds and failures.

Why would a department hire someone that they found likely to cost them significant dough in an excessive force or civil rights lawsuit and settlement? If Bernie's points for accountability are made into law, that will become too great a risk....if they have another option. But they have to have other options.



What qualifications are you looking for that you believe will make a better law enforcement officer?
Which of those qualifications do you believe better pay will address?
Mostly generalized skills that apply to other intense environments - demonstrated maturity, competence, conscientiousness, compassion and empathy, elite decision-making/problem-solving skills in stressful situations, and a high degree of effective communication/interpersonal skill. You can grow some of those things through extensive training (not the shytty short-term training they typically do now but a much longer pre-field process), but for the most part you're only going to be able to identify those traits if the candidate has a successful life/work history before even entering the force.

The problem is that people with those networks of competencies usually aim much higher, they're going into the business world or law, or if their empathy level is especially high they enter social work or activism. Policing is considered a blue-collar job for people who couldn't cut it in other shyt, rarely a desirable job for a highly competent or justice-minded person. (Even when it is a desirable job, young folk practically always say they wanna be a "detective" rather than "police officer", because being an officer alone carries that stain of lower respectability.)

Higher pay alone won't shift the candidates - similar to the teaching field, it needs to be higher pay and a shifting of responsibilities simultaneously. So long as police departments are militarized operations and police officers are allowed to act like thugs, they are going to attract the sort of people drawn to that and repulse others. As Bernie said in the first half of point 5, the entire culture of policing has to change, not just the pay and the accountability.



Again, black people are not being targeted by law enforcement because they are underpaid.
If you believe the only thing wrong with police is the intentional targeting of Black people then you're naive as fukk. We already addressed this so I suspect you're just being disingenuous again rather than being naive. Other aspects of Sanders's 8-point plan addressed that issue, but you have completely ignored 7.5 of the 8 points.



I've offered plenty of criticism regarding Biden. he wasn't my preferred candidate and I was happy with him losing the primaries. You're creating fantasy. I wasn't on this board when Clinton ran so I doubt we'd have had that discussion.
Who was your preferred candidate and what was their policing plan, and where did you criticize it?

I guess I had a hard time pinning you down to an actual candidate most of the time because most of your work I'm familiar with has just been criticizing leftists or trying to deflect leftist criticism of centrists and right-wingers without ever bothering to play your own hand.
 

Pressure

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Not being considered why? Are they even applying? Because I have yet to know anyone without a record who ever wanted to be a cop and couldn't find a place that would hire them. Like I said earlier, a lot of departments have MAD vacancies and are reduced to hiring re-treds and failures.

Why would a department hire someone that they found likely to cost them significant dough in an excessive force or civil rights lawsuit and settlement? If Bernie's points for accountability are made into law, that will become too great a risk....if they have another option. But they have to have other options.

Yes. Plenty of black men find themselves not getting the job or put on long waitlists and end up moving on to another career.

I mention this because studies show hitting 40% black officers significantly decreased racial issues by law enforcement.

I can't speak for other places but it isn't uncommon to not get a job in CMPD.

And CMPD still has the same issues that were seeing all over the country. So while I understand the logic behind the argument I just don't believe it will make a significant difference.

As for your last point, I don't think they put much thought into because ultimately the citizens end up footing the bill for police misconduct.

If you believe the only thing wrong with police is the intentional targeting of Black people then you're naive as fukk. We already addressed this so I suspect you're just being disingenuous again rather than being naive. Other aspects of Sanders's 8-point plan addressed that issue, but you have completely ignored 7.5 of the 8 points.

No I have not. My point is as a black man ignoring the racial issue makes any discussion with regard to police reform wholly insufficient.

And that has always been a major complaints with Sanders style framing of issues that disproportionately affect black Americans.
Who was your preferred candidate and what was their policing plan, and where did you criticize it?
Comprehensive Criminal Justice Reform | Elizabeth Warren

Would you like to discuss it?
 

88m3

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LMAO I don't even like Sanders, but the fact that ppl will complain about these policy proposals is proof positive that a lot of the "activists" behind many of these policies are fukking idiots who claim to represent more people than they actually do.

My issue is with his "the police need better wages and education" shtick.


His letter to Schumer is whatever we'll be lucky to see half of that in our lifetimes at this rate.
 
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Pressure

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Millions of people are out protesting the unjust execution of black men and women by law enforcement.

Any police reform that does not address that simple truth isn't listening to the people.
 

the cac mamba

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cops arent underpaid, i'm tired of that bullshyt. you have to invest zero into the "education" that it takes, they get plenty of overtime, and a pension starting in their what, 50s? early 60s? gimme a break

and if they don't like the pay, then go be a security guard at walmart. cops arent drafted
 

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I do want to thank you for the discussion, @Pressure, because while I came on hard you've actually been substantive and I think we're actually pretty close on this. I'm just trying to figure out why you're so focused on the one part you disagree with (which is unlikely to have any meaningful negative effect even in your assessment) rather than the rest of the plan which you appear to agree with.



No I have not. My point is as a black man ignoring the racial issue makes any discussion with regard to police reform wholly insufficient.

And that has always been a major complaints with Sanders style framing of issues that disproportionately affect black Americans.
Millions of people are out protesting the unjust execution of black men and women by law enforcement.

Any police reform that does not address that simple truth isn't listening to the people.
But again, he didn't ignore the racial issue. It's addressed in the 1st, 4th, 5th, and 8th bullet points of his plan. You're just demanding that the 2nd half of the 5th bullet point must directly address race as well.



What I actually asked you to discuss was where you had ever criticized Warren's plan. I just looked it over and in respect to police its 99% the same shyt Bernie said.

So do you pretty much agree with Bernie's plan except for 1-2 things, or do you pretty much reject Warren's plan? Cause there ain't a whole lot of daylight there. I don't even remember you ever discussing Warren's policing plan.
 
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Still waiting @88m3, you poked your head in but still don't want to act like a serious person? :usure:


@88m3, I'm going to give you one chance to prove you're not a clown.

You've been here 8 years. Just show me one time, ever, before Bernie's June 2nd letter that you argued for more radical reformation of the police than Bernie did. So I know you're not a Hillary-stan centrist democrat cosplaying as a militant all of the sudden, please show me one time, ever, that you argued for bigger changes before this month.

Second, show me one time, EVER, where you criticized one of the centrist dems for their police proposals, none of which have ever gone nearly as far as Bernie did. When Clinton called for more training for cops, show me where you said ONE word against her for it.



I mean, you're a fukking Clinton stan trying to talk like Bernie is too soft on cops. :gucci:
 

88m3

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I believe after the Diallo murder(it may have been an earlier police killing in NYC) studies were done that show police were more likely to murder a black person regardless of the scenario whether armed or unarmed and even uniformed police etc and we have all that play out routinely over the years. The information is there, the education is available, police wages and compensation are very high particularly in the flashpoint scenarios that we see across the country. The NYPD budget is 6 billion dollars the majority of that is wages and compensation.

‘Defund the NYPD’? What’s Really in the New York City Police Department Budget


This isn't acceptable
 

banner34

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None of these politicians are about abolishing the police department because that make no se see if u don’t have a system to take its place
 

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most of the proposals in the letter to schumer would be positive changes like use of force continuum, stopping military transfers to PDs, national registries for police misconduct and ending funding for PDs that violate civil rights. the point on establishing unarmed first responder groups is pretty close to much of the discourse on defunding the police because it acknowledges the scope of policework needs to be constricted.

ensuring “proper wages” for police is MAYBE relevant in certain cases, like those isolated towns in alaska where the only people in police forces are convicted felons, usually for domestic violence (really this is a greater problem than just police funding and the towns need more resources in general). but overall it misrepresents the reasons why dangerous and violent people are drawn to the profession.

really that issue cant be dealt with without drastic change to police union structure and culture which he didnt mention. US Labour Movement, especially white workers and union reps, are really bad on this issue in general. labour-based politicians like bernie sanders are not going to be leaders on this issue for this reason and we should be looking instead toward police accountability activists who have been in the field for years. while the other proposed changes here would have positive impacts the fundamental issues of racist and excessive policing will not be resolved until the problem with police unions is resolved.

sidenote: regardless of any other political stances @88m3 goes hard on police. hes good on this issue
 
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