Are Africans and people of African descent who aren't AA black?

[IllmaticDelta]

Black ethno racial consciousness has existed already in every single society where african slavery or colonialism has taken place. You posted a string of etymological diatribes about non AA's apparently not knowing they were "black" until coming to the United States

they knew they were "negro" obviously when they looked like stereotype but when they diviated from that stereotype, they thought they were something else and above the ones that looked the part. Those are the people garvey was dissing

when using the term "black" as a mainstream cultural identifier didn't even hit the United States until the 60's.

it was actually around/used often in the USA before that

Black Americans have used various names—African, colored, negro, Afro-American, Black, and African American—to identify themselves. Sometimes these terms were used interchangeably, but, more often than not, one term predominated during a particular historical period. Until about 1915 (through slavery, Reconstruction, and the post-reconstruction periods) the word “colored” was commonly used to designate persons of African descent, and even as late as 1909, when the National Association of Colored people was founded, and 1912, when James Weldon Johnson’s important The Autobiography of an Ex-Colored Man was published, the term was still in general usage.

Beginning in 1915 with the advent of World War I and the migration of Blacks from the South to the North and from rural areas to urban centers, Black people in this country espoused new concepts of self and of race. The publication of Alain Locke’s The New Negro in 1924 and Carter G. Woodson’s initiation of Negro History Week in 1926 and his founding of the Journal of Negro History [1916] and of the Association of the Study of Negro Life and History inaugurated a new period in Black cultural development.

The shift from “colored” to “Negro” in popular usage reflected a profound change in racial ideology. For the first time, there was a collective affirmation of ethnicity on both the political and the cultural levels, as evident by the Garvey movement and the Harlem Renaissance in the arts. From 1915 to 1965, the word “Negro” symbolized the prevailing ideology, that Black People could realize their greatest potential through integration into the mainstream of American society.

In 1965, however, Malcolm X enunciated his concept of blackness and initiated a movement that hastened a profound effect In very phase of American life—politics, education, business, the arts, etc. Malcolm committed a radical and revolutionary act by rejecting the term “negro” in favor of the word “Black,” and in so doing (1) he placed the protest movement of the 1960 within the historical context of Black nationalism, (2) he established a confrontational dichotomy—Black versus White—which characterized race relations in this country, and (3) he rejected the White, Anglo-Saxon, protestant, middle class norm as a standard for assessing Black culture.

In a brilliant stroke of genius, Malcolm used the word “Black” to affirm and to validate the physical (dark skin, kinky hair, wide nose, full lips) and the cultural (Black speech, the blues, gospel music, funkiness) characteristics of the race. Like Harriet Wilson in her 1859 novel Our Nig, Malcolm employed irony and semantic inversion in using a term of denigration as a means of racial affirmation to move Black people from the “If you’re white, you’re all right; if you brown stick around; if you’re black, get back” mentality to a “Black id beautiful” positive frame of reference.

Historically, then Afro-Americans have called themselves “colored,” “Negro” and “Black,” but even in the earlier periods race leaders, particularly the proponents of militant racial protest, consistently used “Black” as a term of ethnic identification. For example,

David Walker (1829) “ . . . the world may see that we the Blacks or Colored People are treated more cruelly by the white Christians of America.”

Nat Turner (1831) “ . . . it had been said of me in my childhood by those by whom I had been taught to pray, both white and black, . . . that I would never be of any use to anyone as a slave.”

Frederick Douglass (1852) “There are seventy-two crimes in the State of Virginia, which if committed by a black man, subject him to the punishment of Death; while only two of the same crimes will subject a white man to the like punishment of death.”

W.E.B. Du Bois (1903) “Away with the black man’s ballot, by force or fraud—and behold the suicide of a race.”

Marcus M. Garvey (1923) “Let white and black stop deceiving themselves. Let the white race stop deceiving themselves. Let the white race stop thinking that all black men are dogs and not to be considered as human beings.

Langston Hughes (1926) “The road for the serious black artist, then, who would produce a racial art in most certainly rocky and the mountain is high.”

Malcolm X (1960) “As a collective mass of Black people we have been deprived not only of civil rights, but even our human rights. The right to human dignity . . . the right to be a human being.”

Thus, the term has political connotations, for it expresses militant opposition to racial oppression through its association with black nationalism, “ . . . a body of social thought, attitudes, and actions ranging from the simplest expressions of ethnocentriam and racial solidarity to the comprehensive and sophisticated ideologies of Pan-Negroism or Pan-Africanism,” according to John H. Bracey et al in Black Nationalism in America. It is not by chance that W.E.B. Du Bois, perhaps the greatest theoretician of Black nationalism in the twentieth century, entitled his seminal work The Souls of Black Folk in 1903.

A Black By Any Other Name

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and

Use of ‘African-American’ Dates to Nation’s Early Days

The term African-American may seem to be a product of recent decades, exploding into common usage in the 1990s after a push from advocates like Jesse Jackson, and only enshrined in the Oxford English Dictionary in 2001.

The O.E.D.’s entry, revised in 2012, traces the first known occurrence to 1835, in an abolitionist newspaper. But now, a researcher has discovered a printed reference in an anti-British sermon from 1782 credited to an anonymous “African American,” pushing the origins of the term back to the earliest days of independence.

“We think of it as a neutral alternative to older terms, one that resembles Italian-American or Irish-American,” said Fred Shapiro, an associate director at the Yale Law School Library, who found the reference. “It’s a very striking usage to see back in 1782.”

Mr. Shapiro, a longtime contributor to the O.E.D. and the editor of the Yale Book of Quotations, found the reference last month in one of his regular sweeps of various online databases that have transformed lexicographic research by gathering vast swaths of historical texts — once scattered across the collections of far-flung libraries and historical societies — in one easily searchable place.

One day, Mr. Shapiro typed “African American” into a database of historical newspapers. Up popped an advertisement that appeared in The Pennsylvania Journal on May 15, 1782, announcing: “Two Sermons, written by the African American; one on the Capture of Lord Cornwallis, to be SOLD.”

With the help of George Thompson, a retired librarian from New York University, Mr. Shapiro found one of the titles — “A Sermon on the Capture of Lord Cornwallis” — and located a copy of it, a 16-page pamphlet, at Houghton Library at Harvard University.

The sermon, which crows about the surrender of the British Army at Yorktown the previous year, was acquired by Harvard in 1845 and seems to have been all but uncited in scholarly literature. Its author — listed on the title page as “an African American” — is anonymous, identified only as “not having the benefit of a liberal education.”

“Was it a freeman?” Mr. Shapiro said. “A slave? We don’t know.”

Black people in the Colonial period, whatever their legal status, were most commonly referred to as “Negro” or “African.”

But in the years after the Revolution, various terms emphasizing their claim to being “American” — a label which was applied to people of European descent living in the colonies by the end of the 17th century — came into circulation.

“Afro-American” has been documented as early as 1831, with “black American” (1818) and “Africo-American” (1788) going back even further.

“We want dancing and raree-shows and ramadans to forget miseries and wretchedness as much as the Africo-americans want the Banjar” — banjo — “to digest with their Kuskus the hardships of their lives,” a correspondent wrote to Thomas Jefferson in 1788. (“Kuskus” is a variant of “couscous.”)

Katherine C. Martin, the editor of United States dictionaries at Oxford University Press, said the O.E.D.’s researchers were in the process of confirming Mr. Shapiro’s discovery.

“It’s very exciting,” she said. “Once we have it nailed down, I would expect we’ll update our entry.”

The sermon, one of the earliest surviving ones by a black American, may also attract interest from historians.

In it, the speaker boasts about the capture of Cornwallis and decries the British assault on “the freedom of the free born sons of America” while nodding toward the fact of “my own complexion.”

“My beloved countrymen, if I may be permitted thus to call you, who am a descendant of the sable race,” one passage begins.

The speaker also addresses fellow “descendants of Africa” who feel loyalty to Britain, asking: “Tell me in plain and simple language, have ye not been disappointed? Have ye reaped what you labored for?”

The other sermon mentioned in the ad, Mr. Shapiro said, may be “A Sermon on the Present Situation of Affairs of America and Great-Britain,” which had been previously known to scholars. Both refer to “descendants of Africa,” he said, and have dedications invoking South Carolina, whose governor had been held in solitary confinement by the British for nearly a year.

But curiously, the title page of the other sermon attributes it to “a Black.”

“In other words, the bifurcation between the terms African-American and black, the two leading terms today, was present from the very beginning,” Mr. Shapiro said.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/21/arts/use-of-african-american-dates-to-nations-early-days.html?_r=0

When African Americans of previous generations called themselves Negros, or Coloured or what have you did you think that made them any less aware of the social status of themselves and people who looked like themselves in a predominantly white societies all around the world and the cultural ties that held them together as a community? Are African Americans gifted with a degree of sentience that other negroes aren't?

see above

They just had different ways of describing what was the same exact thing: A trans-ethnic and trans-nationalistic marker of identity for those who are descended from Africa and victims of the global system of white supremacy. And this is disregarding the fact that many black communities outside of the U.S. starting heralding the idea of black consciousness using that literal word decades before African Americans.

no they didn't

Afro-Arab scholar Al Jahiz who was born in 7th Century Iraq wrote an entire book on what it meant to be black. The affirmation of black identity is stated explicitly in the first few lines of the Haitian Constitution.

not the same thing

In the 1930s Francophone black countries in Africa and the Caribbean had the Negritude,( or "the Blackness" movement in English) propelled many independence movements for the continent. Etc.

influenced by the Harlem Renaissance with knowledge of black american racial concepts

 

[BigMan]

so did #AAGANG define what black is yet @Prynce

 

[Bawon Samedi]

Jesus Christ! Haitians were CLEARLY subscribing to the phenotypic version of black. Hell even today not all people of African descent subscribe to the DNA AA version of black.

To be honest no one has an agreed definition to what "black" means.

 

[IllmaticDelta]

@IllmaticDelta

Wrong again.

1. Describe "anthro world" because it was Europeans during their first contact that said they were not "Negroids." And can you PROVE Horners especially Oromos who identify as black had their minds made up before European contact?

we know because highland ethiopians had names for people that fitted the negro stereotype that they didn't use on themselves which means they thought they were racially different. So my point is that they didn't need outside influences to realize they looked different/were not the same.

2. Wrong again. It wasnt just ANYONE darker than them otherwise Persians and other Near Easterners TOO would be grouped in as Aethiopian. More importantly Indians(southern) were grouped in as EASTERN Aethiopians. Separate from Africans they saw. They knew the difference.

In modern geography the name Ethiopia is confined to the country known as Abyssinia, an extensive territory in East Africa. In ancient times Ethiopia extended over vast domains in both Africa and Asia."

“It seems certain,” declares Sir E. A. Wallis Budge, “that classical historians and geographers called the whole region from India to Egypt, both countries inclusive, by the name of Ethiopia, and in consequence they regarded all the dark-skinned and black peoples who inhabited it as Ethiopians. Mention is made of Eastern and Western Ethiopians and it is probable that the Easterners were Asiatics and the Westerners Africans.” (History of Ethiopia, Vol. I., Preface, by Sir E. A. Wallis Budge.)

In addition Budge notes that, “Homer and Herodotus call all the peoples of the Sudan, Egypt, Arabia, Palestine and Western Asia and India Ethiopians.” (Ibid., p. 2.) Herodotus wrote in his celebrated History that both the Western Ethiopians, who lived in Africa, and the Eastern Ethiopians who dwelled in India, were black in complexion, but that the Africans had curly hair, while the Indians were straight-haired. (The aboriginal black inhabitants of India are generally referred to as the Dravidians, of whom more will be said as we proceed.) Another classical historian who wrote about the Ethiopians was Strabo, from whom we quote the following: “I assert that the ancient Greeks, in the same way as they classed all the northern nations with which they were familiar as Scythians, etc., so, I affirm, they designated as Ethiopia the whole of the southern countries toward the ocean.” Strabo adds that “if the moderns have confined the appellation Ethiopians to those only who dwell near Egypt, this must not be allowed to interfere with the meaning of the ancients.”

Ephorus says that: “The Ethiopians were considered as occupying all the south coasts of both Asia and Africa,” and adds that “this is an ancient opinion of the of the Greeks.” Then we have the view of Stephanus of Byzantium, that: “Ethiopia was the first established country on earth; and the Ethiopians were the first who introduced the worship of the gods, and who established laws.” The vestiges of this early civilization have been found in Nubia, the Egyptian Sudan, West Africa, Egypt, Mashonaland, India, Persia, Mesopotamia, Arabia, South America, Central America, Mexico, and the United States. Any student who doubts this will find ample evidence in such works as The Voice of Africa, by Dr. Leo Froebenius; Prehistoric Nations, and Ancient America, by John D. Baldwin; Rivers of Life, by Major-General J. G. R. Forlong; A Book of the Beginnings by Gerald Massey; Children of the Sun and The Growth of Civilization, by W. J. Perry; The Negro by Professor W.E.B. DuBois; The Anacalypsis, by Sir Godfrey Higgins; Isis Unveiled by Madam H. P. Blavatsky; The Diffusion of Culture, by Sir Grafton Elliot Smith; The Mediterranean Race, by Professor Sergi; The Ruins of Empires, by Count Volney; The Races of Europe, by Professor William Z. Ripley; and last but not least, the brilliant monographs of Mr. Maynard Shipley: New Light on Prehistoric Cultures and Americans of a Million Years Age.”

Ancient Ethiopia

 

[Pit Bull]

Its always idiots that have never been on a plane that have these stupid ideas ....lol

Sweet Jesus do you nikkas ever get sick of this talking point

Cac, c00n, militant, bedwench, and passport. Y'all love a Goddamn passport .

 

[IllmaticDelta]

Jesus Christ! Haitians were CLEARLY subscribing to the phenotypic version of black. Hell even today not all people of African descent subscribe to the DNA AA version of black.

To be honest no one has an agreed definition to what "black" means.

the modern of concept "black" is not entirely phenotypic (true negro based) is exactly my point. In the usa, the ancestry is more important than the phenotype and because of this, it covers many phenotypes that aren't universally "black"

 

[Bawon Samedi]

@IllmaticDelta

Now where is it said that Horners saw themselves as different like you said in the quote? My computer isnt working and Im on my phone and so I cant argue at my best. But I remember reading in one of Al jahiz books of Abbysinsian not only seeing themselves as superior to Arabs(due to conquering them before) but saying "you use to like beinh black like us."

 

[IllmaticDelta]

The "Black" that AAs created was basically a "genetic version." "Black" can now be a DNA. A more evolved version of the one drop rule...

correct

This is why lighter skinned Afro Latinos or even North Africans who consider themselves "Black" are using the new and improved AA version of "Black."

yup

But the strictly phenotypic version of Black clearly predates AAs. Any arguing against that is denial.

yeah, that's more along the lines of true negro/blackamoors etc..... and it'sclearly different from the modern concept that's used globally today

This is why SOME non-AAs have a hard time accepting blacks with non-stereotypical black features as black because they're using the strictly dated phenotype version.

yes

 

[Bawon Samedi]

the modern of concept "black" is not entirely phenotypic (true negro based) is exactly my point. In the usa, the ancestry is more important than the phenotype and because of this, it covers many phenotypes that aren't universally "black"

I KNOW THAT! Which is what I been screaming. I said AAs created a new and improved version of black which is "genetic based!" And NOT based on dated physical anthropology.

HOWEVER.... What IM saying is that NOT EVERY person of African descent goes by the "updated" version of black. So there is no universal agreement to what black means. However I do agree the AA version of black is becoming more popular.

But still black as a racial concept predates AAs.

My problem is that SOME people think Non-AAs are retarded and had to be taught they were black.

 

[IllmaticDelta]

@IllmaticDelta

Now where is it said that Horners saw themselves as different like you said in the quote? My computer isnt working and Im on my phone and so I cant argue at my best. But I remember reading in one of Al jahiz books of Abbysinsian not only seeing themselves as superior to Arabs(due to conquering them before) but saying "you use to like beinh black like us."

if you think people that we would call "Black" in the USA/West don't have their own racial concepts within Africa


Ethiopia

West Africa

Sudan

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I KNOW THAT! Which is what I been screaming. I said AAs created a new and improved version of black which is "genetic based!" And NOT based on dated physical anthropology.

HOWEVER.... What IM saying is that NOT EVERY person of African descent goes by the "updated" version of black. So there is no universal agreement to what black means. However I do agree the AA version of black is becoming more popular.

But still black as a racial concept predates AAs.

My problem is that SOME people think Non-AAs are retarded and had to be taught they were black.

people like the ones being talked about in this video are the ones who had to be taught/adapt to modern concept of "Black" from the usa

 

[Bawon Samedi]

@IllmaticDelta

Instead posting large walls of text you should instead post the key points from your sources to force people to read them.

Anyways I am familar with Fulanis not being seen as "black" but even in your source a Fulani himself says some of us are also "black." Yeah some ethnic groups saw themselves as different but fact still remains that racial usage of black predates AAs...

As for Sudan your clearly not taking into account the Arabization.

 

[IllmaticDelta]

@IllmaticDelta

Instead posting large walls of text you should instead post the key points from your sources to force people to read them.

it'smuch quicker/time saving just posting the texts

Anyways I am familar with Fulanis not being seen as "black" but even in your source a Fulani himself says some of us are also "black." Yeah some ethnic groups saw themselves as different

fulanis, horners, sudanese etc..

but fact still remains that racial usage of black predates AAs...

dark skin/negro did but not "black" as we use it today

As for Sudan your clearly not taking into account the Arabization.

arabization has nothing to do with them realizing the differences in color and phenotypes within there country

 

[R=G]

Wow

 

[Bawon Samedi]

it'smuch quicker/time saving just posting the texts



fulanis, horners, sudanese etc..




dark skin/negro did but not "black" as we use it today



arabization has nothing to do with them realizing the differences in color and phenotypes within there country

You missed wat I was getting at

 

[AlainLocke]

I love when @IllmaticDelta and @Diasporan Royalty start discussing things....

So informative...

I be sitting here reading like...