Are Africans and people of African descent who aren't AA black?

[intruder]

That Africans and other blacks of the diaspora have a privilege that AA's do not have in this country and in the world.

I'd argue that but African-americans also have privileges that other blacks don't have

 

[IllmaticDelta]

Again the questions are...

1. What is the institutionalized form of the term in question?

people of recent subsaharan/black african descent, regardless of phenotype (not adhering to a true negro stereotype)

1. How did that particular form of the term come to be institutionalized as opposed to others?

it's a mixture of the old, true negro stereotype + afram "black" concept which overrides old eurocentric anthropology/phenotypic pigeon holding

While the etymology of terms hold a value in and of them selves the way coli approaches it is typically just arguing in circles.

but it clears up why certain people do and do not identify as "black" or understand it, even when they come across the institutionalized form

 

[3rdWorld]

They dont want 100% pure Africans to claim Black but demand half breeds are Black.

 

[mbewane]

I was specifically talking about black people from the USA with a slave heritage. Of course if you have dark skin and african heritage, you are black, regardless of nationality.

However, the context of what I was saying was about how Africans treat/view African Americans (and eventually the African Amercian experience in general). I defined those terms at the beginning of that discussion. I was talking about myself and other Black people(African Americans) can be buddies to an extent but Africans will be two-faced and exclusive at times. I'm not saying they are the only group that does it, I'm just saying that they are black to a point. When it comes to being treated like a 'nikka', they have the privilege of repping their nationality/heritage. Yes, it's a generalization and clearly not every African national is a sell out.

But of course they shyt gets misconstrued because Africans don't have a sense of humor.

while it translates to "black codes" it's not the same "black" that we use today

Sounds like all of this comes from the fact that Black Americans consider their definition of "Black" to be the one and only true one. Lilke we've said before, the word has been used for centuries, before Black Americans were even called Black, and the language itself (english) is European. I really don't know what it is that makes some of you brehs act like you're some kind of authority on who is Black and who isn't.

 

[IllmaticDelta]

Sounds like all of this comes from the fact that Black Americans consider their definition of "Black" to be the one and only true one. Lilke we've said before, the word has been used for centuries, before Black Americans were even called Black, and the language itself (english) is European. I really don't know what it is that makes some of you brehs act like you're some kind of authority on who is Black and who isn't.

man, it's clear as day what concept of "black" is being used today globally/mainstream when you compare it to

negro (european-portugal version)
blackamoor
burnt face
haiti noir

 

[IllmaticDelta]

They dont want 100% pure Africans to claim Black but demand half breeds are Black.

who is "they"?

 

[the artist known az]

This place is weird

 

[Bonk]

Let me end this thread, so my son, @IllmaticDelta , would stop posting.

This is the first group to start using the term 'Black' in modern times. They were called, 'Black Poor', in Great Britain. However, when they got to Sierra Leone and founded the country in 1787, they started calling them, 'Black British', to differentiate them from the indigenous tribes. That's where the term, 'Black British', originated from. Also unlike the Aframs taken to Liberians, who separated themselves from the indigenous tribes and created a class system - the Black Poor cum Black British were instrumental in starting the Anglican Church in West Africa and also instrumental in the renaissance across the region and fight against colonization. Those among them that settled later in Nigeria are a good example. They also started Fourah Bay College, which is the oldest western-style university in West Africa. And that was where the first set of western educated West Africans attained higher education.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Death on the Grain Coast

In the late 18th century, between 5,000 and 7,000 black people lived in London. More than 20 years before the legislation of William Wilberforce finally ended slavery in Britain, the practice was still legal - but ambiguously so. Most blacks in London were free, but not all, and slave catchers operated widely in the capital, kidnapping runaways.

The abolitionist movement, meanwhile, was well under way, and in 1772 a landmark legal judgment had given rise to the widespread (but erroneous) impression that slavery was outlawed in England. As a consequence, black slaves everywhere - but especially in the American colonies - came to see England as a beacon of hope. Many served the loyalist cause in the American war of independence - and thus looked to King and Country to guarantee their liberty when the colonies were surrendered.

After 1783, many impoverished refugees made their way to London, where their plight led to the foundation of a Committee for the Relief of the Black Poor being established by a group of wealthy philanthropists. Soon, though, the coffee-house talk moved beyond mere relief, to a grander project altogether: the establishment of a colony of free black people, back to Africa.

To his friends, Henry Smeathman was "Mr Termite". No one knew more about ants. In 1771 he had been sent by the scientist and future president of the Royal Society, Joseph Banks, to the Banana Islands off the coast of Sierra Leone to collect botanical specimens for Banks's collection at Kew. He had stayed there for three years, turning himself from botanist into entomologist.

In the 1780s he had pottered along giving his insect lectures, a harmless and slightly marginal figure in the scientific and philanthropic communities of which he considered himself a member. But then, in 1786, the cause of the black poor gave him a sudden, belated opportunity, and Smeathman set before the Lords of the Treasury his "Plan of Settlement" for the creation of a thriving free black colony in "one of the most pleasant and feasible countries in the known world" - Sierra Leone.

Given such natural blessings, each settler should "by common consent" be allowed to "possess as much land as he or she could cultivate". Surely the blacks would see that "an opportunity so advantageous may perhaps never be offer'd again for they and their posterity may enjoy perfect freedom settled in a country congenial to their constitution" and one where they "will find a certain and secure retreat from former suffering". And all for a mere £14 per capita.

There was something of a discrepancy between Smeathman's ebullient salesmanship and the truth. The "Land of Freedom", as Sierra Leone was to be called, also happened to be the province of slavery. The Royal Navy, which was to escort and possibly protect the infant colony of the free, was at the same time assigned to protect the busy British slave-trading depot on Bance Island, a little way upriver from the estuary. Still, the government signed on to the scheme. At a cost of £14 per person, the Treasury would bear the expense not just of free transport to Africa, but also of provisions, clothes and tools for four months.

To many historians, this entire operation has seemed more like social convenience than utopian idealism. In this view, what the government wanted was just to be rid of the blacks as irksome beggars, petty criminals and (since interracial sexual liaisons were becoming commonplace and noticed) a threat to the purity of white womanhood. The involvement of slave owners such as Angerstein and Thomas Boddington in the Sierra Leone plan, and the approval of slavery's most ardent apologist, Edward Long, who may indeed have thought of it as an experiment in social hygiene, does not, however, make it a conspiratorial racist deportation. For every Long, there were 10 dedicated abolitionists. George Rose, the Treasury man overseeing the plan, for example, was a heartfelt, militant abolitionist, committed to closing down the whole sinful institution. Then, as always, there was the veteran campaigner Granville Sharp, who was in no doubt at all - provided slaveholding of any kind was strictly forbidden - that Sierra Leone could indeed be made into "the Province of Freedom".

After some effort was expended to calm the fears of blacks in Britain about the scheme, over 600 signed an "Agreement" indicating their willingness to be "happily settled on the ... Grain Coast of Africa". The emigrants were all supposed to have embarked on three ships lying at Blackwall in London, the Atlantic, the Belisarius and the Vernon, by November. It was important, if the fledgling settlement was to have a chance, that it should arrive on the Grain Coast before the onset of the rainy season in the spring.

But the delays were endless. By late November, of that 600-plus, no more than 259 had actually come aboard the two ships. And they were, evidently, freezing cold, cramped, dangerously sickly and generally unhappy. Some reported being treated by the white officers no better than if they had been "in the West Indies". As many as 60 may have died before the ships ever left England, most of them on the Belisarius, where a "malignant fever" was taking a deadly toll, especially of the children. By then, the scheme's chief salesman, Smeathman, had himself died, of a mystery illness perhaps acquired on his earlier voyages.

Interminable delays meant that the final departure did not take place until February - making an arrival during the rainy season in Sierra Leone inevitable. The ships were barely under way when they found themselves in trouble. The naval escort Nautilus ran on to a sandbank. The wind went from fresh to dangerous in a matter of hours as the fleet found itself in the teeth of the worst kind of gale the Channel can whip up. The Vernon's fore topmast came down; the ships lost sight of, and contact with, each other; and the unlucky Nautilus limped to Torbay. The next day the fleet's commanding officer, Captain Thomas Thompson, attempted to sail to Plymouth in the wake of the Atlantic and Belisarius, but was beaten back to Torbay by the foul weather.

Nor were the venture's troubles over. On April 9 the little fleet sailed away, dirty weather left behind with the British coast. As usual, fevers mounted; bodies, 14 of them, were slid overboard. But at Tenerife in the Atlantic spring, the ships took on cattle and fresh food and water, and the knell of mortality seemed to have abated. Patrick Fraser, the chaplain, described the expedition in a letter to the Public Advertiser as a happy ark, enjoying "the sweets of peace, lenity and almost uninterrupted harmony". Better yet, "the odious distinction of colours is no longer remembered". Black and white worshipped together. Jerusalem lay just over the horizon.

Would it have made any difference if they had known the native Temne name for their destination: Romarong - the place of the wailers, the place where men and women wept in the storms? All that Captain Thompson knew, as he spied the site from the deck of the anchored Nautilus on May 10 1787, was that it had been called "Frenchman's Bay" and he had it in mind to rename it St George's Bay. St George and England, along with some 380 free black Britons, had arrived at the mouth of the Sierra Leone river.

Freed slaves in Sierra Leone

 

[mbewane]

man, it's clear as day what concept of "black" is being used today globally/mainstream when you compare it to

negro (european-portugal version)
blackamoor
burnt face
haiti noir

Clear as day for who? For you, or for other Black people around the world? Sounds like you're projecting your own understanding unto other people. @Bonk already explained how "Black" was used by Brits all the way back, exactly how "Noir" was used by French all the way back, exactly how "Negro" was used by Spanish all the way back...I don't understand why you think you invented anything

Some brehs are really here saying some Black people are not Black

 

[Bonk]

Clear as day for who? For you, or for other Black people around the world? Sounds like you're projecting your own understanding unto other people. @Bonk already explained how "Black" was used by Brits all the way back, exactly how "Noir" was used by French all the way back, exactly how "Negro" was used by Spanish all the way back...I don't understand why you think you invented anything

Some brehs are really here saying some Black people are not Black

@IllmaticDelta and his gang love arguing for the sake of it, even when they're wrong.

He's going to fukk around on this thread and open the pandora's box on the difference between the enormous impact of black Brits in West Africa and how Aframs on the other hand destroyed Liberia.

@IllmaticDelta let it go.

Let me leave the thread now.

 

[IllmaticDelta]

Let me end this thread, so my son, @IllmaticDelta , would stop posting.

This is the first group to start using the term 'Black' in modern times. They were called, 'Black Poor', in Great Britain. However, when they got to Sierra Leone and founded the country in 1787, they started calling them, 'Black British', to differentiate them from the indigenous tribes. That's where the term, 'Black British', originated from. Also unlike the Aframs taken to Liberians, who separated themselves from the indigenous tribes and created a class system - the Black Poor cum Black British were instrumental in starting the Anglican Church in West Africa and also instrumental in the renaissance across the region and fight against colonization. Those among them that settled later in Nigeria are a good example. They also started Fourah Bay College, which is the oldest western-style university in West Africa. And that was where the first set of western educated West Africans attained higher education.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Committee for the Relief of the Black Poor being established by a group of wealthy philanthropists. Soon, though, the coffee-house talk moved beyond mere relief, to a grander project altogether: the establishment of a colony of free black people, back to Africa.

But then, in 1786, the cause of the black poor gave him a sudden, belated opportunity, and Smeathman set before the Lords of the Treasury his "Plan of Settlement" for the creation of a thriving free black colony in "one of the most pleasant and feasible countries in the known world" - Sierra Leone.

May 10 1787, was that it had been called "Frenchman's Bay" and he had it in mind to rename it St George's Bay. St George and England, along with some 380 free black Britons, had arrived at the mouth of the Sierra Leone river.

Freed slaves in Sierra Leone

nah homie




Use of ‘African-American’ Dates to Nation’s Early Days

The term African-American may seem to be a product of recent decades, exploding into common usage in the 1990s after a push from advocates like Jesse Jackson, and only enshrined in the Oxford English Dictionary in 2001.

The O.E.D.’s entry, revised in 2012, traces the first known occurrence to 1835, in an abolitionist newspaper. But now, a researcher has discovered a printed reference in an anti-British sermon from 1782 credited to an anonymous “African American,” pushing the origins of the term back to the earliest days of independence.

“We think of it as a neutral alternative to older terms, one that resembles Italian-American or Irish-American,” said Fred Shapiro, an associate director at the Yale Law School Library, who found the reference. “It’s a very striking usage to see back in 1782.”

Mr. Shapiro, a longtime contributor to the O.E.D. and the editor of the Yale Book of Quotations, found the reference last month in one of his regular sweeps of various online databases that have transformed lexicographic research by gathering vast swaths of historical texts — once scattered across the collections of far-flung libraries and historical societies — in one easily searchable place.

One day, Mr. Shapiro typed “African American” into a database of historical newspapers. Up popped an advertisement that appeared in The Pennsylvania Journal on May 15, 1782, announcing: “Two Sermons, written by the African American; one on the Capture of Lord Cornwallis, to be SOLD.”

With the help of George Thompson, a retired librarian from New York University, Mr. Shapiro found one of the titles — “A Sermon on the Capture of Lord Cornwallis” — and located a copy of it, a 16-page pamphlet, at Houghton Library at Harvard University.

The sermon, which crows about the surrender of the British Army at Yorktown the previous year, was acquired by Harvard in 1845 and seems to have been all but uncited in scholarly literature. Its author — listed on the title page as “an African American” — is anonymous, identified only as “not having the benefit of a liberal education.”

“Was it a freeman?” Mr. Shapiro said. “A slave? We don’t know.”

Black people in the Colonial period, whatever their legal status, were most commonly referred to as “Negro” or “African.”

But in the years after the Revolution, various terms emphasizing their claim to being “American” — a label which was applied to people of European descent living in the colonies by the end of the 17th century — came into circulation.

“Afro-American” has been documented as early as 1831, with “black American” (1818) and “Africo-American” (1788) going back even further.

“We want dancing and raree-shows and ramadans to forget miseries and wretchedness as much as the Africo-americans want the Banjar” — banjo — “to digest with their Kuskus the hardships of their lives,” a correspondent wrote to Thomas Jefferson in 1788. (“Kuskus” is a variant of “couscous.”)

Katherine C. Martin, the editor of United States dictionaries at Oxford University Press, said the O.E.D.’s researchers were in the process of confirming Mr. Shapiro’s discovery.

“It’s very exciting,” she said. “Once we have it nailed down, I would expect we’ll update our entry.”

The sermon, one of the earliest surviving ones by a black American, may also attract interest from historians.

In it, the speaker boasts about the capture of Cornwallis and decries the British assault on “the freedom of the free born sons of America” while nodding toward the fact of “my own complexion.”

“My beloved countrymen, if I may be permitted thus to call you, who am a descendant of the sable race,” one passage begins.

The speaker also addresses fellow “descendants of Africa” who feel loyalty to Britain, asking: “Tell me in plain and simple language, have ye not been disappointed? Have ye reaped what you labored for?”

The other sermon mentioned in the ad, Mr. Shapiro said, may be “A Sermon on the Present Situation of Affairs of America and Great-Britain,” which had been previously known to scholars. Both refer to “descendants of Africa,” he said, and have dedications invoking South Carolina, whose governor had been held in solitary confinement by the British for nearly a year.

But curiously, the title page of the other sermon attributes it to “a Black.”

“In other words, the bifurcation between the terms African-American and black, the two leading terms today, was present from the very beginning,” Mr. Shapiro said.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/21/arts/use-of-african-american-dates-to-nations-early-days.html?_r=0

we have aframs in the usa on record using "black" in 1782

The Committee for the Relief of the Black Poor was a charitable organisation founded in London in 1786 to provide sustenance for distressed people of African and Asian origin. It became a crucial organisation in the subsequent proposal to form a colony in Sierra Leone.

The Black Poor in 18th-century England
The "Black Poor" was the name given in the late 18th century to indigent residents of London who were of black ancestry. The Black Poor had diverse origins. The core of the community were people who had been brought to London as a result of Atlantic slave trade; sometimes as slaves or indentured servants who had served on slave ships. At the time, black American sailors served on both navy and merchant ships. The Black Poor had become a rare but noticeable sight on the streets of London. Most of the Black Poor lived in impoverished East End parishes, or in Seven Dials and Marylebone. They formed a portion of the broader Black British community, which predominantly consisted of people employed at menial urban jobs, but had prominent members such as Ignatius Sancho and Olaudah Equiano. While the broader community included some women, the Black Poor seem to have exclusively consisted of men, some of whom developed relationships with local women and often married them.

1786 for the "black poor"

 

[Bonk]

nah homie




Use of ‘African-American’ Dates to Nation’s Early Days



http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/21/arts/use-of-african-american-dates-to-nations-early-days.html?_r=0

we have aframs in the usa on record using "black" in 1782




1786 for the "black poor"

 

[IllmaticDelta]

Clear as day for who? For you, or for other Black people around the world?

Sounds like you're projecting your own understanding unto other people. @Bonk already explained how "Black" was used by Brits

see my last post

all the way back, exactly how "Noir" was used by French all the way back,

I already touched on the difference between that and the modern concept

The Code Noir (The Black Code)

when you consider what was "black" under the french three tier colorline vs the anglo-american two tier one, that alone explains the difference between the two concepts of "black"

exactly how "Negro" was used by Spanish all the way back...

not the same as the modern concept

Are there substantial grounds for the violent opposition to the word "Negro"?

To answer these questions and to relate them to the whole bubbling controversy, one must go back 400 years. For Americans of African descent have been arguing about names ever since they were forcibly transported from Africa by Europeans who arbitrarily branded them "Blackamoors," "Moors," "negers," and "negros." The English word "Negro" is a derivative of the Spanish and Portuguese word negro, which means black. The Portuguese and Spanish, who were pioneers in the African Slave Trade, used this adjective to designate the African men and women whom they captured and transported to the slave mart of the New World. Within a short time, the Portuguese word negro (no capital) became the English noun-adjective "negro." This word, which was not capitalized at first, fused not only humanity, nationality and place of origin but also certain white judgements about the inherent and irredeemable inferiority of the persons so designated The word also referred to certain Jim Crow places, i.e., the "negro pew" in Christian churches.

American mind there is no connection of the black American with land, history and culture--factors which proclaim the humanity of an individual." Baird denies that the English word "Negro" is a synonym for black. He says. "'Negro' does not mean simply 'black,' which would be the simple, direct opposite of 'white.' We talk about a 'white man' or a 'white Cadillac'; we may talk, as many unfortunately do, of a 'Negro man,' but never of a 'Negro Cadillac.'

B

I don't understand why you think you invented anything

history

 

[IllmaticDelta]

I come with facts

 

[IllmaticDelta]

@IllmaticDelta and his gang love arguing for the sake of it, even when they're wrong.

nothing wrong over here....see my post

Are Africans and people of African descent who aren't AA black?

He's going to fukk around on this thread and open the pandora's box on the difference between the enormous impact of black Brits in West Africa and how Aframs on the other hand destroyed Liberia.

@IllmaticDelta let it go.

Let me leave the thread now.

you do realize there were aframs amongst those british black poor who later become seirre leone creoles?

Black Loyalists in 18th Century London

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