Always thought this came from Africa or Caribbean ...actually it was New Orleans

TNOT

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from-african-to-creole.jpg



It shows the percentage of disembarked slaves from documented slavevoyages according to century of arrival. A couple of things standing out:





    • The Hispanic Americas received most of the earliest arrivals (1500’s/1600’s), relatively speaking and specifically the Dominican Republic (“Santo Domingo”) and Central America (incl. Mexico and Colombia).



    • Puerto Rico and especially Cuba however show a big share of late arrivals (1800’s). The same goes for Trinidad and southeast Brazil. Historians often assume that socalled African retention (the preservation of ethnically/regionally recognizably African cultural heritage) is most noticeable for places where slave imports continued the longest into the 1800’s while Creolization is assumed to be most pronounced for regions where slave imports were mostly in the 1600’s/1700’s.

    • Most of the English and French speaking Caribbean as well as the USA fall in between. Meaning that for Afro-descendants in these countries most of their African born ancestors can be traced to the 1700’s.
“Creoles, the First African Americans, and Creolization


In North America, the African population that came over as slaves had begun to reproduce itself by the 1730s. Before the 1730s, the Black population had to be constantly replenished by the slave trade, because most Blacks either died without reproducing or died before reaching adulthood. During the 1730s this changed and what emerged was a locally-born African-American population that we call creole Blacks. These creole Blacks were the first African Americans, and their process of bridging African and American worlds is what we refer to as creolization. African-Americans creoles, born after the 1730s, were unlike their ancestors in many respects because they were born in America. By about 1820, almost 90 percent of Black American slaves were American-born. We must, therefore, distinguish the African-born population, which became quite negligible by 1800, and the American-born Creole population that became dominant after 1820, because African-American culture begins with this Creole population. “

[/quote]

From African to Creole
 

IllmaticDelta

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Honestly, I'd say the MS hill country might have a leg up on NO in that regard as well, especially in regards to music.

The don't have the surviving creole language, but what other place do you have a strong tradition of banjo, quills, and blues fife(all african instruments) and such prominent drumming call and response folk music playing in the US that is almost identical to flute and drum music in the Sahel of west africa.

yea, Blues of mississippi (delta and hill country) is the most purley african music in the USA but since I was factoring some other cultural elements like language and food, art etc.. I had to give the nod to the Carolina/Sea Islands/Low Country
 

IllmaticDelta

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But, yeah, Charleston, SC and the GA and SC sea islands are easily more 'African' culturally than New Orleans.



This is a complete blow out especially if you include ALL of SC to include the facejugs





Carolinian

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and

Lowcountry cuisine is the cooking traditionally associated with the South Carolina Lowcountry and the Georgia coast. While it shares features with Southern cooking, its geography, economics, demographics, and culture pushed its culinary identity in a different direction from regions above the Fall Line. With its rich diversity of seafood from the coastal estuaries, its concentration of wealth in Charleston and Savannah, and a vibrant African cuisine influence, Lowcountry cooking has strong parallels with New Orleans and Cajun cuisine.
 

TNOT

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I’ve posted examples of our unique culture on display.


I’ll wait for some similar examples of this type of culture from South Carolina and the hill country of Mississippi






We do this every Sunday.

I guess I can just drive to the middle of Mississippi and find the same thing. Same for South Carolina I should see something similar




 

get these nets

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@Supper

thank for the post detailing history Texas Creoles. I've spoilered the pages and videos in my posts, because the pages are taking too long to load and the mega posts serve to filibuster the thread.

I've read that the Americanization (Anglo ization) of New Orleans after 1803 impacted the N.O. Creole community several ways. Part of it was the racist laws brought in by American whites to eventually reduce the status/power of the Black Creoles. Some Creoles left the state for Texas area (I'm assuming some of your people) , some for Chicago(setting stages for Jazz flourishing there). The reaction to this pressure from Anglo whites was the natural doubling down on embracing the French/Spanish roots of their heritage by N.O. Creoles. The people fleeing the revolution in St. Domingue/Haiti DOUBLED the Black Creole population when they were allowed to land in New Orleans. I don't think the significance of that can be overlooked. If you read about the wealth produced when SD was an active slave colony, and that the education/wealth attained by the mulatto children of the French slavers, you can imagine what kind of cultural impact that these people would add to a group that was already free, educated and wealthy in their own right. And you figure their overall numbers would increase because of placage/concubine system of the French.
This insular group was bolstered which allowed them to remain insular. Defiantly insular from Anglo influence. Place like New Orleans, there was going to cross cultural influences on every level regardless of defienace though.

@TNOT 's post about the Catholic Institutions still in existence there in 2019, is a testament to New Orleans retaining parts of its French/Spanish heritage. The existence of Creole organizations/institutions in that city/region are further testament to the retention of this heritage. That Creoles are still a distinct group there in 2019 is further evidence.

That you and @IllmaticDelta have pointed out cross cultural influences from Anglo AA culture into Creole and New Orleans culture doesn't cancel out the fact that these institutions still exist though.
 
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IllmaticDelta

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With

all due respect .....

I’ve watched my grandparents sing and dance the same way.


Now show me today’s version of that in Mississippi or Chicago

We held on to our traditions some others didn’t .....it ain’t my fault

why would you see that in those places? It's part of carolina/sea islands culture and wouldn't be in a place those people didn't migrate to.

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IllmaticDelta

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Ok show me that in South Carolina.

Today





for the record, this went straight into protestant, pentecostal based afram church




Many Blacks from the South incorporated spiritual beliefs or remnants of ATR with the Bible/Christianity - and they still do.

For instance, Pastor C.H. Mason:
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Mason was born the son of former slaves Jerry and Eliza Mason in Shelby County, Tennessee. He used "Hoodoo" and used magical sticks and items to heal and pray.​








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Estrelda Alexander was raised in an urban, black, working-class, oneness Pentecostal congregation in the 1950s and 1960s, but she knew little of her heritage and thought that all Christians worshiped and believed as she did. Much later she discovered that many Christians not only knew little of her heritage but considered it strange. Even today, most North Americans remain ignorant of black Pentecostalism.

Black Fire remedies lack of historical consciousness by recounting the story of African American Pentecostal origins and development. In this fascinating description she covers

  • what Pentecostalism retained from African spirituality
  • the legacy of the nineteenth-century black Holiness movement
  • William J. Seymour and the Azusa Street Revival
  • African American trinitarian and oneness Pentecostal denominations
  • the role of women in African American Pentecostalism
  • African American neo-Pentecostals and charismatic movements
  • black Pentecostals in majority-white denominations
  • theological challenges of black Pentecostalism in the twenty-first century
Whether you come from an African American Pentecostal background or you just want to learn more, this book will unfold all the dimensions of this important movement's history and contribution to the life of the church.

REVIEWS
"This particular book is especially welcome. African American Pentecostals have become a major force in American (and world) Christianity, but there is a serious lack of well-documented studies. Estrelda Alexander does an excellent job filling that lamentable gap."

Mark Noll, Francis A. McAnaney Professor of History, University of Notre Dame
"Pentecostalism is one of the most vibrant and important developments in modern Christianity. In this welcome and much-needed book, Estrelda Y. Alexander demonstrates convincingly that this global work of the Spirit has to a large extent emerged from and continues to be fanned into flame by the African American community. Outsiders who think a few more controversial variations of 'black fire' sometimes look like 'strange fire' will be glad to learn that the African American church has able internal critics of its own outliers. Every Christian--indeed, everyone interested in the present and future of Christianity--needs to know this story."

Timothy Larsen, McManis Professor of Christian Thought, Wheaton College
"Black Fire offers an expansive historical overview of African American Holiness-Pentecostals and their often overlooked contributions to the early development, dissemination and current vitality of the modern Pentecostal movement from its inception to the present. Students and scholars of African American religion and culture will appreciate its rich content, as well as its nuanced attention to matters of race, class, gender and generation."

Karen Kossie-Chernyshev, Ph.D., professor of history, Texas Southern University, Houston, Texas
"Dr. Alexander has gathered the major, minor, profound and pedestrian aspects of African American Holiness-Pentecostalism in a volume that seeks to provide a Rosetta stone for scholars, students, denominational historians and the general public. She is clear to state that this work is an endearing labor of love to articulate her experience as an African American Pentecostal worshiper, scholar and minister. This volume is the seedbed of a crop of readable studies in African American Holiness-Pentecostal history, theology and culture. A worthy investment in understanding the why, who, what and how of a century-old community of denominations linked to the book of Acts and 312 Azusa Street. Kudos!"

Dr. Ida E. Jones, historian, Calvary Bible Institute and Moorland Spingarn Research Center, Howard University, Washington, D.C.
"This book will provide its readers with a valuable overview of important monuments and figures from the past one hundred years. It presents a straightforward account of how African American Pentecostalism developed and changed over time. Because of the scope of this work, it will be helpful for general audiences who want to learn more about this topic or for use in an undergraduate course."

Monica Reed, H-Net Pentecostalism, May 2014
"Black Fire provides a much-needed narrative that completes, and at times corrects, the general histories of both American Christianity and the Pentecostal and charismatic movements."

William Purinton, International Bulletin of Missionary Research, Vol. 36, No. 2
"Alexander is one of the few historians of black Pentecostalism who have attempted to synthesize the story of black Pentecostalism within one volume. This is a very challenging task that she does exceptionally well given the myriad number of black Pentecostal denominations. Her work is a first of its kind and a timely, valuable resource for students and scholars of African American religion in general and African American Pentecostalism in particular."

Jonathan Langston Chism, Religious Studies Review, Vol. 42, No. 4, December 2016

Black Fire - InterVarsity Press

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.
.


Pentecostalism’s Neglected Black History


Christine A. Scheller: What is the connection between Pentecostalism and African spirituality?

Estrelda Y. Alexander: Because the early leaders of Pentecostalism were African American, they had been grounded in a spirituality. A lot of times, because you don’t understand your past, you don’t even know what it is that influences you. Seymour grew up in Lousiana and Lousiana was a place where there was a lot of African spirituality around him that he imbibed as a young person. So some of the ways that African people are open to God get incorporated into Pentecostal worship, and you can see this in the difference between white and black Pentecostals even today. There’s this real sense of openness to the Spirit, but not naming it as African religion.

Christine A. Scheller: So, it’s a cultural influence?

Estrelda Y. Alexander: Right. They would never say that, but one of the people who specifically talked about embracing African roots as part of Pentecostalism was Charles Harrison Mason, the founder of the Church of God in Christ, which is the largest African American Pentecostal body in the world. He was unashamedly African in his approach to religion and incorporated things such as healing rituals that he not only found support for in the Bible, but also found support for in his African roots. He was not ashamed and he didn’t want Black people to be ashamed of their Africanness, and so he did things like using herbs and healing roots. Even though he saw this as healing that was being offered by the Holy Spirit, he also saw a place for the African herbs and the things that he had known in his childhood in the ritual of healing in the Black church.



There are elements of Africanism that no they are not named as that, but they get incorporated, such as the music. In the Black Pentecostal church, music is a mainstay, and it’s music at a different level. I’ve heard a critique by a middle class Black person who was appalled by the earthiness of the music in Black Pentecostal worship, and almost saw it as soulish, and didn’t think it was appropriate, because not just music, but rhythm and drums are important to African American Pentecostal worship. When Pentecostalism first began, people who were around Pentecostals thought their worship was appalling. For example, when Rev. Charles Parham came to Azusa Street, he called what he saw at the revival “crude Africanisms.” He was appalled at the openness to the Spirit. It wasn’t just speaking in tongues, but it was the shaking, the quaking, which many people would see as related to Spirit possession in African worship. Pentecostals would say, yes, there’s a Spirit possession, but they would redefine it as possession by the Holy Spirit. If you go back to slave religion, you had things like the “ring shout.” The people who were early Pentecostals weren’t that far removed from slavery, so some of that was in their memory and gets translated into some of the worship that happens in the early movement.

Pentecostalism's Neglected Black History | HuffPost
 

Black Haven

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The Gullah geechee people are perceived to be one of the most "African" people not only amongst Aframs but new world blacks as a whole:mjlol:





That's why you have certain black foreigners who try to use them to say that they retained their "roots" compared to modern Aframs which is a whole other debatable subject:mjpls:
 

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The Gullah geechee people are perceived to be one of the most "African" people not only amongst Aframs but new world blacks as a whole

That's why you have certain black foreigners who try to use them to say that they retained their "roots" compared to modern Aframs which is a whole other debatable subject

If this is in response to the guy saying that N.O. is referred to as the most African city in America, I'm not sure how the videos you posted refuted what he said.
The South Sea Islands and Gullah strong hold areas existed in relative isolation, and still do to some extent. New Orleans is a major American city which, despite all the blending/mixing of cultures has deeply entrenched West African traditions and culture in the city.

Acknowledging the rich and strong West African culture(s) still alive in Gullah doesn't disprove the notion about New Orleans.

(speaking of that area.....Whites and corporate interests are trying to force people out of those areas in SC ....while we're here splitting hairs about culture)
 

im_sleep

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I’ve posted examples of our unique culture on display.


I’ll wait for some similar examples of this type of culture from South Carolina and the hill country of Mississippi






We do this every Sunday.

I guess I can just drive to the middle of Mississippi and find the same thing. Same for South Carolina I should see something similar




Maybe not as elaborate as what you see in New Orleans, but still being practiced in the present, nonetheless.
:yeshrug:

@IllmaticDelta isn't there a link between fife and drum and current day marching bands?
 

Black Haven

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If this is in response to the guy saying that N.O. is referred to as the most African city in America, I'm not sure how the videos you posted refuted what he said.
Is Charleston not a city?

As it has on every aspect of Charleston culture, the Gullah community has had a tremendous influence on music in Charleston, especially when it comes to the early development of jazz music. In turn, the music of Charleston has had an influence on that of the rest of the country. The geechee dances that accompanied the music of the dock workers in Charleston followed a rhythm that inspired Eubie Blake's "Charleston Rag" and later James P. Johnson's "Charleston", as well as the dance craze that defined a nation in the 1920s. "Ballin' the Jack", which was a popular dance in the years before "Charleston", was written by native Charlestonian Chris Smith

And yeah it is unfortunate of what's happening around that area due to capitalist whites :francis:
 
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