IllmaticDelta

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Congo Square in New Orleans..birthplace of Jazz....That should tell you something bruh.

folkloric myth. The people who birthed jazz never were at congo square lol




Steve Smith :: Confessions of a U.S. Ethnic Drummer

MD: Did you consciously put yourself into a scholarly frame of mind to do this project, "Drumset Technique/History of the U.S. Beat"?

STEVE SMITH: That mindset of exploring the history of U.S. music is just something that I've been living for a long time, so I've been in that headspace for quite a few years.

MD: Then this project was merely formalizing something that you've been thinking about anyway?

SS: Yeah, exactly. I guess the place to start is the Vital Information album "Where We Come From." Before we did that album back in 1997 I had spent some time investigating Afro-Cuban music. I realized I could learn the patterns of that style of drumming and I could play it to a degree but I didn't really play it well, in my opinion, because I didn't grow up in the culture. I realized that the best musicians of the genre are literally all from Cuba or Puerto Rico or somewhere in the Caribbean and most of them know the history of their music and culture. This inspired me to focus on the music of my own culture and use that same approach. I had to admit that as a U.S. drummer I didn't know a lot about the origins of my own music. I knew some jazz history and I had lived through '60s rock and the fusion era but I didn't know a lot about early jazz or the early rhythm and blues, blues, country and gospel and all that. And at a point I really started seeing myself as part of a lineage, a U.S. ethnic drummer playing the percussion instrument of the United States -- the drum set.

MD: And that triggered your whole investigation of the past?

SS: Definitely. I wanted to be informed about my own past and what I was connected to. I became very engrossed in learning about the whole U.S. music scene in general and the development of the drum set in particular. So now I really do see myself as a U.S. ethnic drummer that plays all the different styles of U.S. music, not that I'm a unique person doing it because I think there's a lot of guys doing it but they may not have identified themselves as that. It's been helpful for me to think of myself as a U.S. ethnic drummer. It's a bigger perspective than "a jazz drummer" or "studio drummer" or "fusion drummer."


MD: It's like the machine was emulating Gadd, and then the next generation emulated the machine.

SS: Yeah, it's a real twist and a real shift. And so, to me, there's not a lot of new drum vocabulary since the '70s, the emphasis became execution -- perfection. Different music's have developed since then but a whole lot of new vocabulary isn't necessary to play it. You can pretty much recycle everything that developed up until the '70s to play the music. For example, drum 'n bass is basically funk drumming speeded up and hip-hop is funk slowed down. And both come directly from James Brown, it's still essentially the same rhythms and beats that the James Brown bands developed in the '60s and '70s. So even though some things have evolved and changed, it remains the same. Hopefully some new things will evolve but for the most part the lion's share of the vocabulary is already there for drummers.

MD: What were some of the surprises that you had in researching the early years...even the African connection. Were there any revelations about how this music developed as you found out about it in your research?

SS: I think what was significant to me is that in the United States there's no hand drum tradition, which in fact led to the drum set becoming the rhythmic voice of the African American community. Whereas, if history had played itself out differently and let's say we had a hand drum tradition in the United States, the drumset may have never been a necessary invention because we would've had a whole percussive orchestra just with hand drumming. But because of the no-drumming laws that were enforced during the time of slavery, the hand drum tradition that develops directly out of African drumming was squelched in this country. It is true that slaves in New Orleans were allowed to play hand drums once a week at Congo Square. But when you look at that in the scope of how long slavery existed in the United States, which is from the 1500s until the mid 1800s, Congo Square only represents about 40 years in the scheme of things. It began in 1817 and lasted until the mid 1850s. I think in some ways the significance of Congo Square has been a bit overemphasized. Congo Square had the drumming legally but there were other places in Louisiana and all over the South that had the African polyrhythmic percussive concepts still being practiced illegally or underground for the entire history of slavery in the U.S. There's a great book by Dena Epstein called "Sinful Tunes and Spirituals," which is a documentation of everything she could find on the African polyrhythmic concept surviving in the United States throughout the years of slavery. She found that people kept the African pulse alive in many ways such as playing washboards, jawbones, beating sticks on the floor, or stomping their feet on the floor. Even some African hand drums or African styled drums that were made in secret here in the U.S. have been found.

MD: And you make an interesting point in the DVD about the polyrhythmic style of "patting juba" leading to the development of the drumset.

SS: That's another percussion instrument, so to speak, that was developed in the U.S., where the person is playing with feet and hands, incorporating all the limbs just like the drumset. It's an African polyrhythmic concept and it was eventually applied to the drumset, which is the only percussion instrument in the world that uses all four limbs. So in effect, the slaves being deprived of hand drums set the stage for the African American community to embrace the drumset. Without hand drums they were forced to adapt to the European percussion instruments that were available in the1800s, the snare drum and the bass drum, so they were comfortable with the individual instruments that would make up the drumset. I find it real interesting that basically the invention of the drum set is the invention of the bass drum pedal. After that happened in the late 1800s, basically the drum set wasn't used for any other purpose than playing jazz, which was a creation of the African American community. So when people first played the drumset they wanted to play with that concept -- one person playing a snare drum and a bass drum with that African American swing rhythmic concept. The drumset could've just as easily been used in a symphony orchestra but it wasn't. It had some applications in, say, vaudeville and maybe a few situations here and there other than jazz but they never took off as playing concepts. The playing concept that we now take for granted is essentially an African American concept of how to use the instrument. This concept has been so thoroughly assimilated into the culture that most people don't even think about it or question how it came to be. Today the drumset is an instrument that's been accepted all over the world but it is quintessentially a U.S. instrument that developed from our unique history and culture.

Steve Smith :: Confessions of a U.S. Ethnic Drummer (part 1)



the man who was the first to play jazz was born almost 20 years after it closed down

musicians-with-disabilities-17-728.jpg


Many early jazz musicians credited Bolden and the members of his band with being the originators of what came to be known as "jazz", though the term was not in common musical use until after the era of Bolden's prominence. At least one writer has labeled him the father of jazz.[8] He is credited with creating a looser, more improvised version of ragtime and adding blues to it; Bolden's band was said to be the first to have brass instruments play the blues. He was also said to have taken ideas from gospel music heard in uptown African-American Baptist churches.

Instead of imitating other cornetists, Bolden played music he heard "by ear" and adapted it to his horn. In doing so, he created an exciting and novel fusion of ragtime, black sacred music, marching-band music, and rural blues. He rearranged the typical New Orleans dance band of the time to better accommodate the blues; string instruments became the rhythm section, and the front-line instruments were clarinets, trombones, and Bolden's cornet. Bolden was known for his powerful, loud, "wide open" playing style.[6] Joe "King" Oliver, Freddie Keppard, Bunk Johnson, and other early New Orleans jazz musicians were directly inspired by his playing.

 

Pit Bull

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Right, and that’s all everyone in this thread is saying. Which is why this rant about the “South Rising Again” and all that other shyt don’t make sense to me. This ain’t the first time I’ve notice this with breh so I gotta ask.
@BlackPrint is just a bytch ass island rat that pretends to be African American when it benefits him but mad as hell that we claiming our shyt
 

BlackPrint

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aframs/new world blacks aren't simply continental africans in america but people with african roots who experienced a creolization process to birth a NEW CULTURE.

You can tell that lie all you want, but people that are African, speak utilizing African syntax(Across all sociographic groupings), keep traditional African spiritual systems and identify exclusively with the continent of Africa ARE African. I hate to break it to you, gz.

tenor.gif

You IS AFRICAN .. Anything else is just a feature. B-Side ass nikkas tryna clout up off cacs gets no burn over here my guy.

Them nikkas be gettin hot when u say that :mjlol:

Not to mention that logically, if your argument is that the South is a progenitor of AA culture by way of the slave trade (being our origin point, so to speak) then Africa is STILL the predominant actor at play in the development of our culture.. Ain't alot of arguing around that. The entire basis of this argument is flawed.
as etc...:sas2:


I know for a fact I've had this conversation with you previously. Stop it 5.

ALL African Americans are NOT from the South. New York had one of the highest proportions of slaves in all of the colonies. slaves that for generations lived in NEW YORK, not Georgia, not North Carolina, but NEW YORK. You can go see the plantations to this day upstate and on Long Island. The culture that birthed Hip Hop was native BLACK NEW YORKER culture, not some great migration fukkery where nikkas who moved here in the 1950s created hip hop 30 years later. The Black culture of New York is just that, the black culture of NEW YORK.

@BlackPrint is just a bytch ass island rat that pretends to be African American when it benefits him but mad as hell that we claiming our shyt
I respect that you could @ me atleast.

The one nikka that send flowers to bytches he met in TLR refuses to @ me and the other one refuses to fight me :lolbron:. Repped for that.
 

mykey

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folkloric myth. The people who birthed jazz never were at congo square lol


Steve Smith :: Confessions of a U.S. Ethnic Drummer (part 1)



the man who was the first to play jazz was born almost 20 years after it closed down

The History of Jazz
The Prehistory of Jazz
The Africanization of American Music

The scene could be Africa. In fact, it is nineteenth-century New Orleans........Within eyesight of Congo Square, Buddy Bolden--who legend and scattered first-person accounts credit as the earliest jazz musician--performed with his pioneering band at Globe Hall.... By the time Bolden and Bechet began playing jazz, the Americanization of African music had already begun, and with it came the Africanization of American music--a synergistic process that we will study repeatedly and at close quarters in the pages that follow. Anthropologists call this process "syncretism"--the blending together of cultural elements that previously existed separately. This dynamic, so essential to the history of jazz, remains powerful even in the present day, when African-American styles of performance blend seamlessly with other musics of other cultures, European, Asian, Latin, and, coming full circle, African.

Congo Square in New Orleans was the only place where slaves were allowed to gather every Sunday, to trade, sing, dance and play music; This led to the birth of Jazz
Congo Square in New Orleans was the only place where slaves were allowed to gather every Sunday, to trade, sing, dance and play music; This led to the birth of Jazz

NOLA History: Congo Square and the Roots of New Orleans Music - GoNOLA.com

Congo Square was the place where black slaves could once again be Africans, even if for just one afternoon a week. They would bring drums, bells, and other musical instruments to the square and gather, roughly by tribe, to play music, sing, and dance.
 

mykey

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Did you read what I posted? That's all prior to when Jazz was born. The people who birthed jazz never were at congo square.
Did YOU read what I posted?

1. From New York Times The History of Jazz:
Prehistory of jazz: Africanization of African-American music

2. From the City of New Orleans website NOLA History: Congo Square and the Roots of New Orleans Music - GoNOLA.com:
Congo Square and the roots of New Orleans music.

3. Congo Square in New Orleans was the only place where slaves were allowed to gather every Sunday, to trade, sing, dance and play music; This led to the birth of Jazz
Congo Square led to the birth of Jazz

Look, there's more than enough evidence to prove that the roots of Jazz music lie in Congo Square, New Orleans in the 18th and 19th Centuries.

If you have any evidence that says otherwise i'll be glad to hear it.
 

IllmaticDelta

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You can tell that lie all you want, but people that are African, speak utilizing African syntax(Across all sociographic groupings), keep traditional African spiritual systems and identify exclusively with the continent of Africa ARE African. I hate to break it to you, gz.

tenor.gif

You IS AFRICAN .. Anything else is just a feature. B-Side ass nikkas tryna clout up off cacs gets no burn over here my guy.

Them nikkas be gettin hot when u say that :mjlol:

Not to mention that logically, if your argument is that the South is a progenitor of AA culture by way of the slave trade (being our origin point, so to speak) then Africa is STILL the predominant actor at play in the development of our culture.. Ain't alot of arguing around that. The entire basis of this argument is flawed.


From African to African American: The Creolization of African Culture

From African to African American: The Creolization of African Culture





I know for a fact I've had this conversation with you previously. Stop it 5.

ALL African Americans are NOT from the South. New York had one of the highest proportions of slaves in all of the colonies. slaves that for generations lived in NEW YORK, not Georgia, not North Carolina, but NEW YORK. You can go see the plantations to this day upstate and on Long Island.

767px-Percentage_of_African_American_population_living_in_the_American_South.png





The culture that birthed Hip Hop was native BLACK NEW YORKER culture, not some great migration fukkery where nikkas who moved here in the 1950s created hip hop 30 years later. The Black culture of New York is just that, the black culture of NEW YORK.


1st generation pioneers with southern roots, all before herc w/ coke being herc right hand man

carolinas



carolinas

cokelarockfinal-edit.jpg


carolinas

Dj%2BKool%2BDee%2Bat%2BParadise%2BSmalls.jpg




carolinas

IMG_31283116554086.jpeg


 

IllmaticDelta

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Did YOU read what I posted?

1. From New York Times The History of Jazz:

2. From the City of New Orleans website NOLA History: Congo Square and the Roots of New Orleans Music - GoNOLA.com:

3. Congo Square in New Orleans was the only place where slaves were allowed to gather every Sunday, to trade, sing, dance and play music; This led to the birth of Jazz


Look, there's more than enough evidence to prove that the roots of Jazz music lie in Congo Square, New Orleans in the 18th and 19th Centuries.

If you have any evidence that says otherwise i'll be glad to hear it.


dude, if the people that created jazz were never at congo square and came 20 years later playing music that wasn't at congo square, it had no influence.

Blues wasn't played at congo square

gospel wasn't played there

ragtime wasn't played there

.....there are many articles/books written who even point of the the ridiculousness of the congo square myth and it's influence on jazz

KGJ3Gc9.png
 

im_sleep

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BlackPrint

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*snip for aesthetic purposes*]

Here's what I wrote...
ALL African Americans are NOT from the South. New York had one of the highest proportions of slaves in all of the colonies. slaves that for generations lived in NEW YORK, not Georgia, not North Carolina, but NEW YORK. You can go see the plantations to this day upstate and on Long Island. The culture that birthed Hip Hop was native BLACK NEW YORKER culture, not some great migration fukkery where nikkas who moved here in the 1950s created hip hop 30 years later. The Black culture of New York is just that, the black culture of NEW YORK.
.


& in response, you gave me

• A graph from Wikipedia that shows the percentage of Black people living in the South.
• Some long ass googledocs unpublished shyt about slavery
•Some supersize ass pictures of MCs, one of which was Kool Herc's son-doola for his entire life :stopitslime:

What even is this?
yhRwGbv.png


The most basic unit of Hip Hop is the DJ. This is a fundamental aspect of the culture. There is no MC without the DJ... Much like Coke La Rock, the MC's initial purpose was to hype the DJ. You posting two pictures of nikkas that moved to the Bronx as children and assimilated to the broader, more established culture in their locale, is the same thing as me posting a picture of Kool Herc and telling you that because he was born in Jamaica, Hip Hop now belongs to Jamaicans.



Hip Hop came about in the BRONX, New york (And brooklyn, fight me). The Black population of the Bronx in the 1970s was already deeply entrenched in the New York cultural sphere that had developed for decades. You gotta remember most of these families had been living in New York for a century already (Migrational patterns tend toward Upper Manhattan/Harlem, and then to the Bronx and Brooklyn a generation later as far as the great migration goes) This has nothing to do with them Black and White photos of nikkas with suitcases on old ass locomotive trains that you keep posting.

This idea that some massive wave of Southerners flooded the Bronx in the 70s or that their children somehow merged ragtime and Gospel and ended up with Hip Hop is absolutely fukking absurd. Ragtime music hadn't been popular for 60 years by the time that hip hop came about so I'm not even gon touch on tha. Where are the sound system clashes and bboying in North Carolina, Georgia? Where is the Blues in the Bronx in the 70s?

Hip Hop is a collection of authentic New York cultural traditions that developed as a direct result of generations upon generations of Black AA New Yorkers (And Caribbean ppl) and their collective experience in maringilized communities across the city. It's unique to New York and doesn't have anything to do with North Carolina or Georgia or Louisiana (Three WILDLY different Southern cultures, btw.. THe South isn't a monolith.)

My fingers tired and I know you're not gonna have anything of substance to respond so I'ma end it there.
 

mykey

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dude, if the people that created jazz were never at congo square and came 20 years later playing music that wasn't at congo square, it had no influence.

Blues wasn't played at congo square

gospel wasn't played there

ragtime wasn't played there

.....there are many articles/books written who even point of the the ridiculousness of the congo square myth and it's influence on jazz

KGJ3Gc9.png
"Blues", "Ragtime", "Gospel", "Soul", "R&B".........These are all sort of "brands" if you will. If you split the music down to it's elements-blues note, call and response, rhythm,etc you'll find that it all stems from traditional folk music of Africa from different regions.

What happened in the Americas is that all these styles were synthesised / fused together into what could colloquially be called "music of the Americas" or new world music. The same happened in Latin America with the syncretic styles of Bachata, Salsa, Samba, Bomba, etc and also in the Caribbean with Mento, Ska, Calypso , Junkanoo, etc.
 
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