Where does the idea that LeBron is a better all around player than Jordan come from

[Pack2]

Shoulda made the poll public so I know which 52 posters to ignore

 

[Professor Emeritus]

I thought we was done comparing cats since the great kobe abruptly left this plain?

But people miss context and perspective with these debates. Mj and lebron played in different eras with differnt2 styles of play and different responsibilities on offense to their respective teams

Yep. There's absolutely no way it's ever getting settled. They played for different squads, against different squads, in different eras with different responsibilities. Anyone coming in saying that they have the answer is a casual.

 

[viktordoomsecretwars]

Bron is better all around but that should not take away from the fact that Jordan was pretty damn good at rebounding and passing too.

I even see some posts here by people supporting Jordan in this debate but yet they wrongfully make concessions. Saying stuff like this. ^^

To me, comments like this just prove that most people who engage in this debate are either barely watched Jordan's career (highlights and watching game 6 of 98 is not WATCHING Jordan), DON'T know what they're talking about. And its fine. Because we debate many things in life when we don't have the facts or are that knowledgable on the topic.

But at least be humble enough to listen and pick up knowledge. I'm in my mid 20's. I never saw Jordan play in his prime. There used to be a time in my life when I thought Lebron was the best of all time and I had never even watched Jordan play!

What I have done however, is get literally in excess of 600+ old Jordan Bulls games from 84-98. And I watched them. And i started to see why Jordan was considered the best athlete of the century by ESPN. And I started to wonder why people even have this absurd debate of Jordan and Lebron for. And its because, they were once ignorant like me.

If you've never invested a second of your life to watch Jordan in his prime ,that is, 87-93, really his absolute prime was 88-90, because he already start to decline a bit in 92 and 93 in my opinion..... If you've never invested your time to watch prime Jordan play then you shouldn't be debating this like you're some expert. Point , blank , period. Its stupid and disingenious.

 

[I'm Blackman]

fukking Bron Stans

 

[Rollo Goodlove]

the nikka played 20 seasons compared to MJ's 15

that does not mean hes better.

Had nothing to do with skill huh

 

[ryderldb]

I don’t agree but I think it’s mostly because bron has more triple doubles and higher assist and rebound numbers than Jordan.

 

[steph_harden]

In 2007,


Jordan is a better offensive and defensive player than Lebron, better shooter (actually Jordan is the best midrange shooter in history), better at steals, better at blocks (yes), better FT shooter, better without the ball, has a much better handle and had less turnovers.

Jordan was also a better offensive rebounder than Lebron despite being 3 inches shorter than him. Lebron has more assists only because he spent his entire career playing as a point forward. When Jordan played as a point guard, he broke the record for consecutive triple doubles. When Jordan played as a point guard for half a season, in 1989, he had 32.5/8/8. When Jordan played as a point guard in the 89 playoff run, Jordan had 35/7/8/2.5/1 on 51 FG%. Jordan statistically is a more

Look at their stats before the Washington Wizards years when Jordan was already 39 and 40 years old. Jordan is better in virtually all per game stats. What's the discussion?

I just cant take you nikkas seriously when you say shyt like this. So you dropping all these stats in favor of MJ ( I already conceded that he was better on offense and on perimeter D) but when it comes to Lebron's stats its "only because"

 

[DoubleClutch]

Jordan vs Lebron debate is dead already. We gonna bury it in 2 weeks when that Jordan ESPN documentary drops

 

[Lord_Chief_Rocka]

When MJ dominated the ball running the offense in Doug Collins old offenses before the Bulls replaced him with Phil Jackson he averaged a triple double. Still averaged over 5 a game in the triangle de-emphasizing personal assist padding as a score first shooting guard and not a point guard. You put him in the ball dominant roles Harden and Bron have in their offenses today and those numbers would go through the roof... and conversely if you were to put Bron and those guys in an actual team offense where no single persona dominates and dictates every possession by themselves like Jackson's triangle then their counting stats would plummet.

And of course this is operating off of the INCORRECT fallacy that counting stats are somehow the end all be all indication of "all aroundness" that conveniently ignores actual indicators of such things... mainly two-way DEFENSIVE effort and prowess. Which is always left by the wayside when it comes to these Bron vs Jordan debates. Couldn't imagine why...

A youtube video thoroughly explained that individual assists are a lot more correlated to the offensive system. Which makes sense.

Edit: found it

 

[Lord_Chief_Rocka]

The idea comes from every Bron team sacrificing balance for Bron being all the encompassing engine of the team. Bron must do it all otherwise it’s not Bron. It’s not a mistake all Bron’s teams struggle immensely when he’s sitting down

 

[murksiderock]

There's no aspect of basketball I'll take Lebron over Jordan. Its not even a conservation worth having. No disrespect to Lebron, but its not even close between them. Lebron is more on a level of Magic and Bird - (which is an extremely high level btw).

Lebron is the best player of his generation but he has also become extremely overblown and overrated by the media. For instance, he was (rightly) put in the top 5 of all time after his crowning career performance in the 2016 finals. But then over the course of 3 years, despite ZERO championships, ZERO finals MVP's, ZERO regular season MVP's and playing in an extremely weak conference, he was catapulted by the media to being all of a sudden 2nd best of all time only behind MJ? Some even say he's best of all time? Based on what? What exactly did he achieve in that time period that made him make that jump ahead of Magic or Kareem for example?

The only people that are in a position to compare Lebron and Jordan are:

• people of a certain age range that were NBA fans or even better Bulls fans during Jordan's prime
• people who have access to collection of Old Bulls games from the 80's and early 90's
• people who have taken their time to watch some Old Bulls games from that time period on Youtube. Youtube obviously doesn't have all the games but he has some

Just go back and watch Jordan's level of play in his 88, 89, 90 playoff runs. Even before he started winning Championships (because Jordan won his first ring at 28).

It's not even close. That is why this conversation is so irritating. Because you have people who don't know what they're talking about speaking with confidence about a debate that isn't even worth having.

So, you're 25 and went back and watched Jordan tape, already knowing the outcome and knowing the general hype around anything Mike ever did. In law this is called "bias" and its impossible for there not to have been bias going into this study, so you'd be recused from your duty...

You can say you favor Jordan but your info about watching tape is irrelevant because you weren't there to watch it in real time, you coulda left that part out. You're no different than anyone else who didn't see him play, we've made our opinion based on how we've interpreted the atmosphere around him, be it numbers, competition, hype machine, etc...

For the record, cats here lie all the time so salute you for being transparent in your take. Most posters on this board didn't see anything before the 2nd 3peat yet speak with arrogance...

I can appreciate your opinion. Personally, and I've said this many times on here, I don't think Mike or LeBron are overall really greater than the other. I have a holistic approach in the way I evaluate them, I just think there is too many moving variables to evaluate them straight up, plus the fact they are from different eras and their primes didn't overlap, much less play together at all...

For my money, the two greatest non-bigs ever, with the most dominant streaks any non-bigs ever had. I don't buy either as greater in any significant magnitude, but I respect that others interpret the info of their careers and have a different conclusion!

 

[viktordoomsecretwars]

So, you're 25 and went back and watched Jordan tape, already knowing the outcome and knowing the general hype around anything Mike ever did. In law this is called "bias" and its impossible for there not to have been bias going into this study, so you'd be recused from your duty...

You can say you favor Jordan but your info about watching tape is irrelevant because you weren't there to watch it in real time, you coulda left that part out. You're no different than anyone else who didn't see him play, we've made our opinion based on how we've interpreted the atmosphere around him, be it numbers, competition, hype machine, etc...

This is absolutely not good logic. I'm just basing it off what I watched and I went in on a clean slate. He was even better than I thought he was. Truth is some people who are Jordan fans don't even know what they're talking about when they argue in his favor and you can tell from their poor arguments.

Also, the fact what I watch is still fresh in my memory puts me in an even better position than old heads who are recollecting what they watched 30 years ago. Just because you're old doesnt mean you know what you're talking about. I've watched Lebron and Jordan play and its clear one is easily inferior to the other.

Let's be honest. Lebron has had a lot of questionable performances and displays in his career that Michael never had. Even when Michael wasn't winning, he always balled out immensely. There's not really a hype machine that surrounds Jordan. Certainly not his game on the court.

I can appreciate your opinion. Personally, and I've said this many times on here, I don't think Mike or LeBron are overall really greater than the other. I have a holistic approach in the way I evaluate them, I just think there is too many moving variables to evaluate them straight up, plus the fact they are from different eras and their primes didn't overlap, much less play together at all...

Thanks for appreciating my opinion. If anything, the era that Lebron plays in severly favors him. The lanes today are wide open. No dominant bigs. No handchecking. A prime Jordan would have been way more dominant in this era. Jordan played in the most difficult era for a player of his type. Lebron plays in the easiest era for a player of his type. Lebron is a great player. He's doing what he's supposed to do in this watered down era. It will be hilarious the sort of damage a prime Jordan will do in the 2020 NBA.

I personally have Lebron in my top 5 but as I've said before, and I don't want to keep repeating myself. Talent wise, ability wise, unless I'm watching a different sport, he's nowhere near as good as Jordan was. He's more on the level of a Magic or Bird which is an extremely respectable level. 2 top 7 players of all time.

Jordan is in his own tier. And it has nothing to do with rings or championships. And if you then factor in rings, MVP's, accomplishments and other accolades then it becomes even more one-sided against Lebron.

 

[10bandz]

I be wanting to stop hating on LeBron, but goddamn do you stans make it hard....like Kobe Stans took a lot of heat back in the gap, but y'all running with that torch man...y'all got it

pretty much the same situation I’m in. Most of the Bron fans be cool and realistic these days but the handful that say dumb shyt make it hard to make peace they much worse than Kobe stans at this point you got Bron stans going to the LWO thread to complain about the KD warriors

 

[Rollo Goodlove]

Jordan's Bulls faced some of the most forgotten teams of all time in the NBA Finals.

Lebron and the Cavaliers overcame a 3-1 deficit against the 73 win Warriors.

Penny's Magic had a larger accomplishment in your mind?

[/QUOTEy]
So now the 90s suns sonics jazz and lakers are forgettable


STFU talking to me

 

[Roland Coltrane]

Because most people don't know what they're talking about.

Being complete - Offense / Defense / (Points, Rebounds, Assists, Steals , Blocks)

Offense - Jordan holds the records for post ppg in both the REGULAR season and PLAYOFFS, the latter by an absolute mile.
He has 10 scoring titles. Lebron has 1. Nuff said.

Defense - This one is not even debatable. 9 time all first team NBA defense , tied for most in NBA history. multiple seasons of 200+ steals and 100+ blocks. First player and one of only 3 players to do that. Jordan did it in back to back seasons. 3 steals titles. NBA Defensive player of the year.
Lebron only had a relatively short peak as a very good defensive player and even in that peak , he was nowhere near the defensive player Jordan was who was a monster on defense for almost his entire career.

Offense + Defense - The fact that Jordan won the Defensive player of the year and Scoring title in the same year tells you everything you need to know. Of course no one else in NBA history has done that.

(Points, Rebounds, Assists, Steals, Blocks) - So Lebron has this reputation as a stat stuffer but some don't seem to know that Jordan is easily the greatest stat stuffer in modern NBA history.

Basketball Statistics and History | Basketball-Reference.com has a stat called "GameScore" - which analyzes every statistical component of individual games, from points, rebounds, assists, steals, blocks , FG%, efficiency and FT%. all combined into a number. This link does a good job explaining it: Game Score | NBAstuffer

40 or more Gamescore for an individual game represents and all time great game. Guess who has by far the most in Modern NBA history ?
https://www.basketball-reference.co...at=game_score&c1comp=gt&c1val=40&order_by=pts

(Jordan has 56 total such games , Lebron has 26)

What that means is Jordan is the greatest stat stuffer and has the most impressive game stats of any player in the modern era (since steals and blocks were not accounted for going back to Wilt and Russell's era in the 60's)

Basketball is not just about Points, Rebounds and Assists in judging how "complete" or "all round" a player is. If that's the case, Larry Bird was a more all round player than Jordan.

Never mind, there are also positional differences between small forwards and shooting guards and what they contribute to the team.

Looking at the total package I presented above, Jordan wins in all of them over Lebron.

• Offense - Jordan
• Defense - Jordan
• (Points, Rebonds, Assists, Steals, Blocks, FG%, FT%) - Jordan

Jordan is the most complete player of all time, clearly a better all round player than Lebron and its pretty clear if you actually know basketball and you've done some research.

HOLD THIS REP