What is the exact PROOF that Lebron is a better "all-round" player than Jordan? Stats say otherwise

[Blurneed]

It's a cool thing to say. Even Magic said that recently. But is it really true? Let's look at a quick statistical analysis. (Read carefully and this is not a bash Lebron thread)

It seems people confuse being a triple threat (i.e points, rebounds, assists) with being an all round player. This gets wildly conflated with being "all round" but that is a flawed viewpoint in the first place. By that standard, Oscar Robertson and Russell Westbrook are two of the best all round players of all time. We know that's not the case.

Jordan is a better offensive and defensive player than Lebron. Jordan has 10 scoring titles to Lebron's 1. Jordan has a DPOTY and 9 all NBA defensive first team nod. Lebron does NOT have a DPOTY and has 5 all NBA defensive first team nods. To anyone with a brain who watched both players, I think its obvious Jordan was clearly a superior defender. Jordan was arguably the best perimeter defender in the history of the game. Lebron has been lambasted for his defense for half of his career.

In terms of box score dominance i.e Points, Rebounds, Assists, Steals, Blocks, TO% FG % and FT%, there is no better all round player than Jordan in the modern history of the game.

Basic objective analysis of stats show this.

Let's use GameScore, which is an all encompassing stat for individual games (THE NBA LINK BELOW EXPLAINS IT): https://www.nba.com/resources/static/team/v2/thunder/statlab-gamescore-191201.pdf

Let's use a Gamescore of "40" which according to Hollinger represents a 'fantastic game' and 'outstanding performance' and see which player has the most stastically dominant games of the last 40 years.

Using basketball reference : Player Game Finder | Basketball-Reference.com

^^^ The results show that Jordan is by far the most dominant box score player of the modern era (this does not take into account all players before steals and blocks were compiled). But that's irrelevant anyway, since both Lebron and Jordan played in the modern era.

This is why I also laugh when people try and use the fact that Lebron has marginal point advantages in rebounds and assists over Jordan to prove he's better all round. Never mind this is an extremely flawed way to compare players (Westbrook has more assists/rebounds per average than Lebron and Bird has more assists/rebound average than Jordan. So?)

Never mind the fact that Lebron is a much bigger man: 6'9 small forward vs 6'6 shooting guard.

Never mind the fact Lebron has the ball in his hands all the time (more assists) : Jordan was mostly an off ball player. And when Jordan played Lebron's point guard/point forward position for less than half a season in 1989, he did it BETTER than Lebron. In his first game as a point guard in 1989, Jordan had 17 assists (which will be 2nd highest all time in Lebron's entire career) and went on a streak of 10 triple doubles in 11 games.

So I don't even believe Lebron is a better passer. At best, they're about equal. Maybe Lebron is very very slightly better passer. What I do know is Lebron plays a position where he has the ball in his hands at all times. But that's a seperate thread.

If I arbitrarily change GameScore "40" to "35" I still come up with similar results:
https://www.basketball-reference.co...at=game_score&c1comp=gt&c1val=35&order_by=pts

Jordan has 148 such games and Lebron has 81.

The point is GameScore just disproves that myth. Jordan has 56 games with a GameScore of "40" or more. Lebron is tied for 2nd with 26.

Jordan is a better offensive player than Lebron.

Jordan is a better defensive player than Lebron.

Jordan showed greater dominance of the boxscore than Lebron and was a better "stat stuffer" than Lebron despite not being a player that played with the ball in his hands. Something Lebron has done all his career.
This isn't a bash Lebron thread. He's quite clearly one of the all time greats and the best small forward in the history of the game. So let's not turn it into that.

Just trying to disprove this urban legend.

I agree with everything except I think its clear Lebron is a better passer. Now did MJ show he can fill up the box score without having a real system in place kinda like Lebron did his whole career? He sure did. Once Phil Jackson came into the picture he obviously bought into an actual system to his benefit n those so called "all around" numbers went down. But it felt more organic. He played within the system and was the clear cut best player and won.

With Lebron theres always some scapegoat, other stars are marginalized while the no names play above their perceived abilities which is some how credited to Lebron. And that's because all ppl do is watch his stats and absolve him of any wrongdoing by saying "he got a triple double tho" . Lebron himself feeds into it too and he knows stat nerds n his stans eat it up. Take this for example:



Not sure why we need to know this. Clear self promotion while ur losing. Dude thinks racking up stats makes him untouchable lol. Something about "Bron ball" just never felt organic.

 

[Jesus Is Lord]

I'm tired of all these narratives trying to bash MJ even though there's been all kinds of threads/stats posted here and there that show how dominant, complete and a winner he was. So I just quote this, which is basically what I said in another thread. Lebron has been the primary ball-handler his whole career, as opposed to MJ who often times was the 3rd ball handler, when you take into account whoever was the PG and Pippen. Plus the triangle just doesn't require a dominant ball-handler. That being said, the difference in career averages is a whopping 2 assists per game lol (5.3 vs 7.4). People make it sound like Bron has averaged 10 assists his whole career and is Magic out there. And strictly using stats is stupid anyway, no one in their right mind would say that Westbrook is a better passer than Bron. All that being said when MJ DID play PG for a longer amount of time he ended up having like 7 triple double in 11 games lol.

For the rebounds, again both do not play the same position and the style of play of the Cavs was more inducive to Bron getting the ball and pushing in transition as opposed to the Bulls with Grant/Pippen playing that role and MJ leaking out doing what he does best. That being said, MJ still has a career average of 6.2 rebounds. Bron has a whopping...7.4 rebound career average. A 1.2 career difference lol. Brehs act like he's Rodman out there.

Not even going to talk about defense, where MJ has Bron beat whatever angle you want to look at it from. Unless one's whole concept of "defense" is chase-down blocks.

Let's leave offense entirely out of this. Even though it would be entertaining to see what Bron stans come up with to explaing how he's better on offense than MJ.

So how exactly is Bron a better all-around player than MJ.

Excellent post.

 

[Jesus Is Lord]

I agree with everything except I think its clear Lebron is a better passer. Now did MJ show he can fill up the box score without having a real system in place kinda like Lebron did his whole career? He sure did. Once Phil Jackson came into the picture he obviously bought into an actual system to his benefit n those so called "all around" numbers went down. But it felt more organic. He played within the system and was the clear cut best player and won.

With Lebron theres always some scapegoat, other stars are marginalized while the no names play above their perceived abilities which is some how credited to Lebron. And that's because all ppl do is watch his stats and absolve him of any wrongdoing by saying "he got a triple double tho" . Lebron himself feeds into it too and he knows stat nerds n his stans eat it up. Take this for example:



Not sure why we need to know this. Clear self promotion while ur losing. Dude thinks racking up stats makes him untouchable lol. Something about "Bron ball" just never felt organic.

Reporter asks about getting tired guarding KD. His team is down in the series.

Lebron: “I’m averaging a triple double...”


*waits for someone to type a defense for his words and attitude. He’s flat out wrong and defensive.

 

[ISO]

I'm tired of all these narratives trying to bash MJ even though there's been all kinds of threads/stats posted here and there that show how dominant, complete and a winner he was. So I just quote this, which is basically what I said in another thread. Lebron has been the primary ball-handler his whole career, as opposed to MJ who often times was the 3rd ball handler, when you take into account whoever was the PG and Pippen. Plus the triangle just doesn't require a dominant ball-handler. That being said, the difference in career averages is a whopping 2 assists per game lol (5.3 vs 7.4). People make it sound like Bron has averaged 10 assists his whole career and is Magic out there. And strictly using stats is stupid anyway, no one in their right mind would say that Westbrook is a better passer than Bron. All that being said when MJ DID play PG for a longer amount of time he ended up having like 7 triple double in 11 games lol.

For the rebounds, again both do not play the same position and the style of play of the Cavs was more inducive to Bron getting the ball and pushing in transition as opposed to the Bulls with Grant/Pippen playing that role and MJ leaking out doing what he does best. That being said, MJ still has a career average of 6.2 rebounds. Bron has a whopping...7.4 rebound career average. A 1.2 career difference lol. Brehs act like he's Rodman out there.

Not even going to talk about defense, where MJ has Bron beat whatever angle you want to look at it from. Unless one's whole concept of "defense" is chase-down blocks.

Let's leave offense entirely out of this. Even though it would be entertaining to see what Bron stans come up with to explaing how he's better on offense than MJ.

So how exactly is Bron a better all-around player than MJ.

LeBron has been a primary ball handler but this is his first year playing point guard. Being a drive and kick SF does not make him an actual PG. This year he is an actual PG full time, in 2017 he played PG when the Cavs PG's were injured, in 2012 he played a game at PG when Chalmers was out, and in 2010 when Mo Williams was out he was a PG for a prolonged stretch, and he played it a lil his rookie year but he was actually a SG that season.

2 assists per game is a substantial difference for starters on any given night that's a 4-6 point swing and it doesn't even factor in the hockey assists. When MJ played PG he was statpadding Westbrook-style he was obsessed with racking up triple doubles and would often check his statistics at halftime. LeBron in his prolonged stretch playing PG in 2010 averaged over 30 points and 10 assists he was unstoppable. To use assists per game as a barometer for passing ability is dumb as shyt anyway, LeBron is a better passer because he just is he has teammate tendencies down to a science where they like to catch the ball+what spots they are best from, he has incredible touch on his pass, he sees things well before they develop, he understands gravity on the floor, he's the best drive and kick guy ever and the best at generating corner jumpers, he's one of the best pick and roll guys ever when it comes to hitting rollers with pocket passes or hitting the corners. He's known as a guy who trust teammates and he kills double teams. MJ's reel is cool a lot of no-looks and behind the backs most of it into the interior. LeBron's passing is clearly on another level when you look at both their highlight reels. LeBron has never averaged 10 assists or been Magic because he has never been a full time PG cheesing the fast break. This year LeBron is playing PG and averaging over 10 assists and leading the league in assists. LeBron is described as one of the greatest passers ever, since he was drafted he was called a transdendent passer, praised for vision and I.Q., compared to Magic Johnson. LeBron has the highest career and single season assist average for a non-guard. It's no scout or analyst that would say some shyt like MJ is a better passer than LeBron. Kill that noise.

Y'all say LeBron is this super ball dominant guy. Go look at LeBron's touches, time of possession, dribbles per touch on NBA.com. It's all online go see the players who are ahead of him since y'all like to act like LeBron is the most ball dominant player in the history of basketball.
https://stats.nba.com/players/touches/?sort=TIME_OF_POSS&dir=1&Season=2013-14&SeasonType=Regular Season
Players Touches
https://stats.nba.com/players/touches/?sort=TIME_OF_POSS&dir=1&Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Regular Season
https://stats.nba.com/players/touches/?sort=TIME_OF_POSS&dir=1&Season=2016-17&SeasonType=Regular Season
https://stats.nba.com/players/touches/?sort=TIME_OF_POSS&dir=1&Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular Season
https://stats.nba.com/players/touches/?sort=TIME_OF_POSS&dir=1&Season=2018-19&SeasonType=Regular Season
https://stats.nba.com/players/touches/?sort=TIME_OF_POSS&dir=1&Season=2019-20&SeasonType=Regular Season

As for rebounding, LeBron is 6'8 260 lb., I've seen too many games where he boxed out much bigger players and games where he went out and got 15-18 rebounds and games where he comfortably slid up to PF. Just because of his size, LeBron is a better rebounder than MJ and in the playoffs LeBron always ramps up his rebounding he averaged 9 per game to MJ's 6 per game.

On defense Jordan stans act like the man never got lit up like it was impossible to score on him it's not true the man was human. I can name many players that torched him. LeBron's defense is not just "chase down" blocks. From '09-'14 he was one of the best defensive small forwards ever. In the 1991 Finals, Michael got switched off Magic and they put Pippen on him. LeBron was never the guy being switched off in his prime, he was always the guy being switched on to people regardless of position, and he usually didn't play around multiple defensive stoppers like MJ did. LeBron is the more versatile defender he was thought of as a guy who could defend all 5 positions in his prime. If you go watch some games from his prime you can see him defending guys like Pierce, George, Anthony, Kobe and Rose, Parker to Garnett and West. And on top of being more versatile LeBron usually had stiffer competition at his position than MJ and played in a tougher era to defend.

While Battier got torched, LeBron held Carmelo to 29% shooting on 41 FG attempts...

Here he is Tony Parker's main defensive assignment in a game he goes 6 for 23 and he also provides P&R switch defense on Tim Duncan and Boris Diaw...


LeBron averaged 3 steals and 3 blocks per game in leading the 3-1 comeback in 2016 against GS...


LeBron holds D-Rose to 1 of 15 (6% FG) when switched onto him in the 2011 ECF

 

[Pack2]

LeBron is a much better playmaker and passer, is a much better 3-point shooter, and is good from the midrange.

MJ is godly from midrange, bad from three, and is only a great passer for his position.

Both of them are unstoppable at the rim. I can't really give it to either one because LeBron literally has the entire defense collapse whenever he gets to the rim, while MJ is smooth like Kyrie.

Defense...who did MJ guard? MJ's on-ball D is overrated imo.

The bolded is a blatant lie and a false narrative that needs to end

Bron is a career 34% shooter from 3 on 4 attempts per game
In the playoffs, he is 33% on 4.7 attempts per game
Average % for the era is 35%

MJ is a career 33% shooter from 3 on 1.8 attempts per game
In the playoffs, he is 33% on 2.5 attempts per game
Average % for the era was 33%

How is one “much better” or even “bad” given these #s??

 

[viktordoomsecretwars]

Jordan has never done anything close to this, This is why bron is a better all around player. /Thread

In the era Jordan played, it was literally impossible to lead both sides on rebounds because that was an era real centers played in. The most dominant centers ever. Jordan is not leading both sides in rebounds playing against the Knicks. Or playing next to or against Oakley. Or against Charles Barkley. Lebron led in rebounds against a small ball team when he was the largest man on the court.

In this 2016 series, Lebron played against a Warriors team that was playing small ball, with no real center. His only real competition for rebounds was Draymond Green. On his own team, it was Tristan Thompson who only averaged 10.1 rpg:
2016 NBA Finals - Cleveland Cavaliers vs. Golden State Warriors | Basketball-Reference.com
This is the same thing with blocked shots. Who is competing with Lebron for most blocked shots that series?

These are Lebron's stats in the 2016 finals:
29.7ppg 11.3rpg 8.9apg 2.6spg 2.3bpg

Pretty good but even by Lebron's standards, that is not a top 5 playoff series performance.
He's had much better playoff series. Like vs Orlando in 2009 for instance. Or 2018 vs the Pacers. He's had way better numbers than in the 2016 finals but he never led both sides in all stats because of the personnel on either his team or the opposing team. For instance, in 2009, there was no way he was going to out-rebound Dwight Howard.


Jordan has also led his team in all stats before in a playoff series (the only guard ever to do so)

In 1989 vs the Knicks (when he was playing Lebron's position and style of play)
Jordan had : 35.7ppg 9.5rpb 8.3apg 2.5spg 1.3bpg

1989 NBA Eastern Conference Semifinals - Chicago Bulls vs. New York Knicks | Basketball-Reference.com

And Jordan would have led BOTH sides in everything if he just grabbed 7 more boards than Patrick Ewing and had 10 more blocks.

Jordan's playoff stats are superior to Lebron's best series stats:

Jordan also has come closest the most times of any player in NBA history to leading both sides in stats including Lebron. I just can't find that article that shows that.

Jordan also is 1 of 2 players in NBA history to lead his team in 4 of the 5 major stastical categories for 3 straight rounds of an entire playoff run. The other is Hakeem. I don't see Lebron's name there.

In the 1997 title run at age 34, Jordan led a championship team in all 5 main categories (points, rebounds, assists, steals, blocks) for the last 3 rounds of the 1997 Playoffs

You boil down Lebron's career to 1 playoff performance to show how statistically impressive he is. Never mind that 2016 wasn't even as statistically good as 2017 in the finals vs the Warriors and numerous other playoff series' displays from other great players

 

[ISO]

at Oakley stopping LeBron from rebounding

 

[viktordoomsecretwars]

The bolded is a blatant lie and a false narrative that needs to end

Bron is a career 34% shooter from 3 on 4 attempts per game
In the playoffs, he is 33% on 4.7 attempts per game
Average % for the era is 35%

MJ is a career 33% shooter from 3 on 1.8 attempts per game
In the playoffs, he is 33% on 2.5 attempts per game
Average % for the era was 33%

How is one “much better” or even “bad” given these #s??

That's most bron fans for you. They don't know anything about basketball or other great basketball players. They only know the stuff that makes Lebron look good.

This is from Wikipedia. Jordan is the:

Only player in NBA history to shoot at least 38% on 3-point field goals in 3 NBA Finals runs (minimum 15 points per game and 1.5 three-point attempts per game)

• Jordan did this in the Bulls' 1991, 1992, and 1993 championship runs under the original 3-point line.

Jordan was shooting well to the 38-40% point range in the 1st 3 peat run.

 

[ISO]

The bolded is a blatant lie and a false narrative that needs to end

Bron is a career 34% shooter from 3 on 4 attempts per game
In the playoffs, he is 33% on 4.7 attempts per game
Average % for the era is 35%

MJ is a career 33% shooter from 3 on 1.8 attempts per game
In the playoffs, he is 33% on 2.5 attempts per game
Average % for the era was 33%

How is one “much better” or even “bad” given these #s??

LeBron has more range and MJ's threes were mostly of the C&S variety in his era and his volume is significantly lower so how would it make sense to compare? LeBron was taking heavy volume off the dribble threes in his first stint in Cleveland and has hit many 30 footers in his career.

MJ's %'s are also inflated from '96 and '97 where he played with a shortened three point line.

If LeBron stuck to low volume C&S threes he'd be a perennial 40% with a regular line that's how it was for him in '13 in Miami. He's a good catch and shoot three point shooter...

 

[HabitualChiller]

The bolded is a blatant lie and a false narrative that needs to end

Bron is a career 34% shooter from 3 on 4 attempts per game
In the playoffs, he is 33% on 4.7 attempts per game
Average % for the era is 35%

MJ is a career 33% shooter from 3 on 1.8 attempts per game
In the playoffs, he is 33% on 2.5 attempts per game
Average % for the era was 33%

How is one “much better” or even “bad” given these #s??

Do I really have to explain what you wrote? Re-read your post.

The fact that LeBron takes a lot more three and still has a higher percentage should tell you who's better. I'm pretty sure that you also factored in those three years when Jordan played with a shortened three-point line.

That shyt boosted the hell out of his percentage.

 

[Pack2]

LeBron has more range and MJ's threes were mostly of the C&S variety in his era and his volume is significantly lower so how would it make sense to compare? LeBron was taking heavy volume off the dribble threes in his first stint in Cleveland and has hit many 30 footers in his career.

MJ's %'s are also inflated from '96 and '97 where he played with a shortened three point line.

If LeBron stuck to low volume C&S threes he'd be a perennial 40% with a regular line that's how it was for him in '13 in Miami. He's a good catch and shoot three point shooter...

No the fukk he doesn't have more range

Then you say "how does it make sense to compare?" when I'm the one responding to a poster saying one is "much better" and the other is "bad"....both flat out lies and my #s support that. Look at the context in terms of their % compare to their eras...both are average.

and now I should toss out Bron's threes off the dribble....so let's toss out all of the bad shot selection and focus on C&S threes only? Yall are comedy with it.

I cant believe anyone would have a reply to my post that's isn't acknowledging the fact that I'm right...noone should be propping up Bron's 3pt % vs MJ. The advantage is non existent so try another one.

 

[Pack2]

Do I really have to explain what you wrote? Re-read your post.

The fact that LeBron takes a lot more three and still has a higher percentage should tell you who's better. I'm pretty sure that you also factored in those three years when Jordan played with a shortened three-point line.

That shyt boosted the hell out of his percentage.

The bolded is completely idiotic. The fact you believe it to be true is

What the #s tell you is they shoot around the same %.
It also tells you their %s are right in line with the league average for their eras.
So now I'm supposed to believe if MJ played in an era where teams shot more threes and he attempted just 2 more per game that suddenly, his % drops below league average?

The same MJ who is the all time leader in PPG, most scoring titles and a legendary psycho work ethic? That logic doesn't sound flawed to you?

 

[Dr. Narcisse]

Reporter asks about getting tired guarding KD. His team is down in the series.

Lebron: “I’m averaging a triple double...”


*waits for someone to type a defense for his words and attitude. He’s flat out wrong and defensive.

All I'll say is yall pick and choose when yall celebrate arrogance.

 

[Jesus Is Lord]

All I'll say is yall pick and choose when yall celebrate arrogance.

I didn’t take it as arrogance. I took it as deflecting and being defensive for no reason. They’re down, so your stats mean nothing. Why bring it up?

Also, arrogance should be used at the right times, yes pick and choose when to display it.

 

[ISO]

No the fukk he doesn't have more range

What comedy nikka? God damn talking to MJ stans is like talking to a wall.

Michael Jordan does not have more range than LeBron James. His best years shooting the three ball were with a shortened three pointer which should tell you he struggles with range. Listen Michael Jordan is the greatest player ever, he's not the greatest at everything though. LeBron and other greats all have things they do better than him.

For LeBron, range is one of those things and it's very clear if you watch both play who has more shooting range. LeBron has more range than guys who are better shooters than him.

Jordan was not doing this








For LeBron, throwing up off the dribble threes in Cleveland was a necessity not neccesairily bad shot selection you got your heat checks, stagnant offensive periods, broken plays, late clock situations that call for it especially with his team. I'm telling you if LeBron focused on low volume, C&S three pointers which is what Michael did his % would be higher because he is statistically and mechanically a good C&S three point shooter. Is it that hard to comprehend?

U Jordan stans are too emotional you try to find outrage in every statement.