I thought this thread was about lebron and Jordan. That’s the dumbest arguments I heard on the Jordan/debate lol. Kobe the 2nd best sg ever and Statistically he don’t compare to KDWell according to this, he's clearly a more dominant player in the position he plays than Lebron. It's tough to do cross x position basic stats analysis:
What is the exact PROOF that Lebron is a better "all-round" player than Jordan? Stats say otherwise
- Thread starter viktordoomsecretwars
- Start date
ISO
Pass me the rock nikka
He’s an idiot spreading false propaganda with no context.Exactly. And it's even worse than that.
Call me a "dumbo" when you labeled the entire table wrong, dumbass.
And per-game stats are just as stupid. LeBron the league at 18, Elgin Baylor entered it at 23, of COURSE their career averages are gonna be different when Baylor was a complete player and full grown man the second he stepped onto the court. MJ's stats would all be lower if he had a couple years of teenage ball to factor in, just like Kobe's stats are lower.
Not to mention that comparing per-game rebounds and shyt in different eras without any qualification at all is just stupid. Baylor averaged 20 rebounds/game in 1961, you think that means he was a better rebounder than Rodman, Hakeem, Barkley, and Duncan? Kevin Porter averaged almost 14 assists/game in 1979, so now he's a better passer than Kidd, Nash, and CP3?
Your chart was idiotic on so many levels.
1. Didn't even compare them to the same players
2. Ignored that SG was a historically weaker position in the NBA for most of its history.
3. Ignored players coming into the league at different ages
4. Ignored stats looking wildly different in different eras.
People can do really dumb shyt with stats if they don't have a clue. You tried to do them ALL at the same time.
Look at this video he uploads it shows Melo’s makes on LeBron and averages for the series even though he got held to 29% on 41 field goal attempts specifically by LeBron. Not to mention even the makes were well defended.
This is what this guy does Jordan is his daddy 800 Coli posts, a 25 part blog, two YouTube pages with dozens of videos
Aye @viktordoomsecretwars why not make a Twitter and start selling merchandise might as well get a bag out the dikk licking you do
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viktordoomsecretwars
Superstar
Just because you disagree with it doesn't mean its dumb. It just shows Jordan is a more dominant player in the position he plays than Lebron is.
What is dumb is comparing Lebron's assists per game total to Jordan when both play different positions and Lebron has the ball in his hands on every possession.
viktordoomsecretwars
Superstar
Exactly. And it's even worse than that.
Call me a "dumbo" when you labeled the entire table wrong, dumbass.
And per-game stats are just as stupid. LeBron the league at 18, Elgin Baylor entered it at 23, of COURSE their career averages are gonna be different when Baylor was a complete player and full grown man the second he stepped onto the court. MJ's stats would all be lower if he had a couple years of teenage ball to factor in, just like Kobe's stats are lower.
Not to mention that comparing per-game rebounds and shyt in different eras without any qualification at all is just stupid. Baylor averaged 20 rebounds/game in 1961, you think that means he was a better rebounder than Rodman, Hakeem, Barkley, and Duncan? Kevin Porter averaged almost 14 assists/game in 1979, so now he's a better passer than Kidd, Nash, and CP3?
Your chart was idiotic on so many levels.
1. Didn't even compare them to the same players
2. Ignored that SG was a historically weaker position in the NBA for most of its history.
3. Ignored players coming into the league at different ages
4. Ignored stats looking wildly different in different eras.
People can do really dumb shyt with stats if they don't have a clue. You tried to do them ALL at the same time.
The same criteria was used for both players. Why should the ages players enter the league matter? When Lebron fans try and use all "youngest to" accomplishments from Lebron to boost his profile as if he didn't enter the league at 18.
How is SG a historically weak position compared to SF? After Lebron, Bird, Dr J and Durant, the quality in that position starts to go downhill. Pippen if you want to include him. SG has the GOAT MJ, Kobe, Jerry West, Wade, Iverson , Drexler, Gervin (he spent more of his career as a SG)
I don't see how shooting guard is a historically "weak" position. That's nonsense.
As for not comparing them to the same players. You should do that yourself. No doubt Lebron will still be the best small forward. But the initial point still holds that Jordan is much more dominant in his position as a shooting guard than Lebron is as a small forward.
Dr. Narcisse
Veteran
God damn, virtually every point he made here is wrong. 
And the only team that has ever "crumbed" after LeBron left is Cleveland because they're a shytty fukking franchise that is terrible EVERY year for the last 25 years unless Bron is propping them up. Miami was in fine position when LeBron left (starting Dragic-Wade-Deng-Bosh-Whiteside), they just had injuries.
74% is league average for most of LBJ's career and most forwards, even greats, shoot in the mid-70s. It ain't "what you expect from a center", Hakeem was one of the most skilled centers of all time and he only shot 71% from the line. Kareem was 72%, Russell was 56%, Shaq was 53%, and Wilt was 51%, and those are the five greatest centers ever. Even Duncan only shot 69% from the line for his career, and he's a forward. Karl Malone, a high scoring forward like LeBron, shot 74% just like him. Barkley? 73%
The part you don't want to admit is that if you factored in MJ's 1980s numbers, his career midrange % would likely be just as bad as LBJ's. The opposition DID beg him to shoot, even before the 1992 Finals the Blazers said that they were going to let MJ have open jump shots and force him to make them (which he did for one game, but so did LeBron against the Spurs in the 2013 Finals).
And Russell played his entire career on superteams, Wilt forced his way to join West and Baylor in LA when they were BOTH 1st-team All-NBA stars, Kareem forced his way to LA and them Magic said that he wasn't coming out of college unless he got to join Kareem in LA, MJ told the Bulls to get Rodman, Barkley and Scottie ran to Hakeem, Shaq/Kobe recruited Malone and Payton, and then you had the PP-KG-Ray champs followed by the Nash-Kobe-Pau-Dwight disaster....but according to you LeBron started that shyt.
And if 6'2" Jason Terry is a "midget", then what the fukk is damn near half the guards in the NBA during Jordan's era?
MJ was letting himself get hemmed up by IT, Dumars, and Microwave, who are ALL midgets by your standards. Detroit had 5 motherfukkers 6'3" or under on that roster, Dallas only had 2 on theirs.
What do you get out of this obsession? For WEEKS you've been doing nothing but posting angry rants against LeBron and starting increasingly dumber and dumber threads. Why? Why do you feel so threatened by him?
This is so fukking stupid at so many levels. LeBron was an INCREDIBLE off-ball player in Miami. His cutting was incredible, he could play the roll-man on the pick-and-roll off either Chalmers or Wade, he caught alley-oops from everyone, and he was a great spot-up shooter (the Heat had actions where they posted him in the corner and he was something like 50% on corner threes, made more corner threes than Wade and Bosh combined). Not to mention he played off-ball with Kyrie at the point in his 2nd Cleveland stint too. You clearly have no clue what you're talking about.
And the only team that has ever "crumbed" after LeBron left is Cleveland because they're a shytty fukking franchise that is terrible EVERY year for the last 25 years unless Bron is propping them up. Miami was in fine position when LeBron left (starting Dragic-Wade-Deng-Bosh-Whiteside), they just had injuries.
So he's a perimeter player when you want to compare his FT% but he's a forward when you want to compare his rebounds/blocks.
74% is league average for most of LBJ's career and most forwards, even greats, shoot in the mid-70s. It ain't "what you expect from a center", Hakeem was one of the most skilled centers of all time and he only shot 71% from the line. Kareem was 72%, Russell was 56%, Shaq was 53%, and Wilt was 51%, and those are the five greatest centers ever. Even Duncan only shot 69% from the line for his career, and he's a forward. Karl Malone, a high scoring forward like LeBron, shot 74% just like him. Barkley? 73%
Total lie, his career average from midrange is nearly 39%, that's closer to 40% than to 35%. And that's with shytty numbers at the beginning of his career, during his Miami peak he was a 42-43% midrange shooter which is stepping towards elite range. (Kobe, for instance, is only 41% career from midrange.)
The part you don't want to admit is that if you factored in MJ's 1980s numbers, his career midrange % would likely be just as bad as LBJ's. The opposition DID beg him to shoot, even before the 1992 Finals the Blazers said that they were going to let MJ have open jump shots and force him to make them (which he did for one game, but so did LeBron against the Spurs in the 2013 Finals).
What the fukk was "uncompetitive" about 2010-2014, those were some of the most competitive playoff runs we've ever seen. You're just making up shyt.
And Russell played his entire career on superteams, Wilt forced his way to join West and Baylor in LA when they were BOTH 1st-team All-NBA stars, Kareem forced his way to LA and them Magic said that he wasn't coming out of college unless he got to join Kareem in LA, MJ told the Bulls to get Rodman, Barkley and Scottie ran to Hakeem, Shaq/Kobe recruited Malone and Payton, and then you had the PP-KG-Ray champs followed by the Nash-Kobe-Pau-Dwight disaster....but according to you LeBron started that shyt.
Name one "role player" in NBA history who has averaged 18-7-7 in an NBA Finals. LeBron played poorly that year but if you're stupid enough to think he looked like a role player based on that then you're stupid enough to think that Magic, Bird, Wilt, and Russell were just "role players" in their Finals too.
And if 6'2" Jason Terry is a "midget", then what the fukk is damn near half the guards in the NBA during Jordan's era?
MJ was letting himself get hemmed up by IT, Dumars, and Microwave, who are ALL midgets by your standards. Detroit had 5 motherfukkers 6'3" or under on that roster, Dallas only had 2 on theirs.
So stat lines matter in 2011 but not in 2014? LBJ averaged 28ppg on 58% shooting and 52% from 3pt, but suddenly the fact that the rest of his team got destroyed on both ends of the floor is solely his fault?
Yes, because KD joining a 73-win team with the reigning MVP and a ring already on their hands is just like LeBron joining Kyrie and K-Love in Cleveland.
What do you get out of this obsession? For WEEKS you've been doing nothing but posting angry rants against LeBron and starting increasingly dumber and dumber threads. Why? Why do you feel so threatened by him?
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MooseMouthMthafuga
Veteran
bron fans turned it up these last couple of pages
Remember, on your dumb chart, if you had only included points/assists, then LBJ would have come out looking BETTER than Jordan.
So you have to throw in rebounds/steals/blocks too....ignoring that by straight ranking, LBJ is BETTER than Jordan overall on 2 out of 3 of those. So you have to do the dumb, "But compared to other shooting guards!" shyt, completely ignoring that most shooting guards in history didn't average 6 boards/game cause they weren't 6'6" athletic specimens in an era when other teams were trotting out 6'3" guys at the position.
So you also throw in FG% even though LBJ is better than MJ there....you toss in FT% too but you skip 3pt%....why is that?
Your dumb ass straight ignores LBJ being better than MJ in in the majority of those categories and has to run with the most contrived criteria I've ever seen and even leave out a category just to make MJ look better.
You just owned yourself completely. According to your own chart, Elgin Baylor is the statistically greatest SF in history. He's 1st in ppg average and 1st in rpg average. His numbers are incredible. Yet you didn't include him because you KNOW he ain't on LeBron's level. You KNOW those 1960s numbers are meaningless.
That's how dumb your chart is.
So you have to throw in rebounds/steals/blocks too....ignoring that by straight ranking, LBJ is BETTER than Jordan overall on 2 out of 3 of those. So you have to do the dumb, "But compared to other shooting guards!" shyt, completely ignoring that most shooting guards in history didn't average 6 boards/game cause they weren't 6'6" athletic specimens in an era when other teams were trotting out 6'3" guys at the position.
So you also throw in FG% even though LBJ is better than MJ there....you toss in FT% too but you skip 3pt%....why is that?
Your dumb ass straight ignores LBJ being better than MJ in in the majority of those categories and has to run with the most contrived criteria I've ever seen and even leave out a category just to make MJ look better.
No, the same criteria wasn't used, they were compared against completely different players. And if you don't get why the age they enter matters then you're too stupid for the conversation.
How the fukk are you going to count all those guys as SG's now when you didn't count them in your fukking chart? West, Wade, Iverson, and Drexler ALL averaged more career assists than Jordan did. It looks like you must not have included Pete Maravich or James Harden either in order to inflate MJ's ranking. He'd be 7th at best and you listed him 4th. You're clearly just changing your criteria from one post to the next to fit your agenda.
You just owned yourself completely. According to your own chart, Elgin Baylor is the statistically greatest SF in history. He's 1st in ppg average and 1st in rpg average. His numbers are incredible. Yet you didn't include him because you KNOW he ain't on LeBron's level. You KNOW those 1960s numbers are meaningless.
That's how dumb your chart is.
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Wade, West, Iverson, Drexler, Maravich, and Harden all average more career apg than MJ.
He just said straight up that Wade, West, Iverson, and Drexler were shooting guards, and that's obviously the position Maravich and Harden played for most of their career.
So MJ is 7th at best in the category by his own standards, but he listed him as 4th. It's clearly a made-up fukking chart. Everything else already wrong with the stupid chart and and top of that he's just MAKING UP the ranking as he goes along.
He just said straight up that Wade, West, Iverson, and Drexler were shooting guards, and that's obviously the position Maravich and Harden played for most of their career.
So MJ is 7th at best in the category by his own standards, but he listed him as 4th. It's clearly a made-up fukking chart. Everything else already wrong with the stupid chart and and top of that he's just MAKING UP the ranking as he goes along.
Dr. Narcisse
Veteran
Yeah they mashing right now
viktordoomsecretwars
Superstar
God damn, virtually every point he made here is wrong.
This is so fukking stupid at so many levels. LeBron was an INCREDIBLE off-ball player in Miami. His cutting was incredible, he caught alley-oops from everyone, and he was a great spot-up shooter (the Heat had actions where they posted him in the corner and he was something like 50% on corner threes, made more corner threes than Wade and Bosh combined). Not to mention he played off-ball with Kyrie at the point in his 2nd Cleveland stint too. You clearly have no clue what you're talking about.
And the only team that has ever "crumbed" after LeBron left is Cleveland because they're a shytty fukking franchise that is terrible EVERY year for the last 25 years unless Bron is propping them up. Miami was in fine position when LeBron left (starting Dragic-Wade-Deng-Bosh-Whiteside), they just had injuries.
So he's a perimeter player when you want to compare his FT% but he's a forward when you want to compare his rebounds/blocks.
74% is league average for most of LBJ's career and most forwards, even greats, shoot in the mid-70s. It ain't "what you expect from a center", Hakeem was one of the most skilled centers of all time and he only shot 71% from the line. Kareem was 72%, Russell was 56%, Shaq was 53%, and Wilt was 51%, and those are the five greatest centers ever. Even Duncan only shot 69% from the line for his career, and he's a forward. Karl Malone, a high scoring forward like LeBron, shot 74% just like him. Barkley? 73%
Total lie, his career average from midrange is nearly 39%, that's closer to 40% than to 35%. And that's with shytty numbers at the beginning of his career, during his Miami peak he was a 42-43% midrange shooter which is stepping towards elite range. (Kobe, for instance, is only 41% career from midrange.)
The part you don't want to admit is that if you factored in MJ's 1980s numbers, his career midrange % would likely be just as bad as LBJ's. The opposition DID beg him to shoot, even before the 1992 Finals the Blazers said that they were going to let MJ have open jump shots and force him to make them (which he did for one game, but so did LeBron against the Spurs in the 2013 Finals).
What the fukk was "uncompetitive" about 2010-2014, those were some of the most competitive playoff runs we've ever seen. You're just making up shyt.
And Russell played his entire career on superteams, Wilt forced his way to join West and Baylor in LA when they were BOTH 1st-team All-NBA stars, Kareem forced his way to LA and them Magic said that he wasn't coming out of college unless he got to join Kareem in LA, MJ told the Bulls to get Rodman, Barkley and Scottie ran to Hakeem, Shaq/Kobe recruited Malone and Payton, and then you had the PP-KG-Ray champs followed by the Nash-Kobe-Pau-Dwight disaster....but according to you LeBron started that shyt.
Name one "role player" in NBA history who has averaged 18-7-7 in an NBA Finals. LeBron played poorly that year but if you're stupid enough to think he looked like a role player based on that then you're stupid enough to think that Magic, Bird, Wilt, and Russell were just "role players" in their Finals too.
And if 6'2" Jason Terry is a "midget", then what the fukk is damn near half the guards in the NBA during Jordan's era?
MJ was letting himself get hemmed up by IT, Dumars, and Microwave, who are ALL midgets by your standards. Detroit had 5 motherfukkers 6'3" or under on that roster, Dallas only had 2 on theirs.
So stat lines matter in 2011 but not in 2014? LBJ averaged 28ppg on 58% shooting and 52% from 3pt, but suddenly the fact that the rest of his team got destroyed on both ends of the floor is solely his fault?
Yes, because KD joining a 73-win team with the reigning MVP and a ring already on their hands is just like LeBron joining Kyrie and K-Love in Cleveland.
What do you get out of this obsession? For WEEKS you've been doing nothing but posting angry rants against LeBron and starting increasingly dumber and dumber threads. Why? Why do you feel so threatened by him?
Just watch and listen. Why should I be threatened by Lebron when I already said he's the best player to ever play his position and one of the greatest players of all time?
Just because I believe Jordan was a much better player playing in a much tougher league doesn't mean I hate Lebron.
What I hate is this forced debate that really isn't really a debate and the media overrating Lebron crowning him consensus number 2.
In 2016, they put him in the top 5. 5 years later despite 0 MVP's and 0 FINALS MVP's and really not winning anything of note individually and collectively, we're supposed to believe that only Jordan was greater than him? Give me a break.
This is the same Lebron that has allowed the other great players from his era to eat, and allowed them to be multiple time Champions, yet he's in the same breath as Jordan? Curry 3x (same as Lebron), Durant 2x, Kawhi 2x. Duncan 2 more. The media will have us believe players like Durant and Kawhi are just footnotes for Lebron's career.
Jordan made dudes who we would legitimately argue as top 10 ever players if they had rings , RINGLESS. Lebron is Santa Claus. Every time you turn on ESPN, they talk about this guy like he's won 5 rings and has 5 Finals MVP's.
You even see some ridiculous articles about him being one of the greatest sportsmen ever. I don't hate the man personally but I can't wait for him to hang it up so other players can get some love too.
Jordan eclipsed Lebron's career in just a span of 9 years. 8 actually since he missed his sophomore season due to injury.
Michael Jordan’s first 667 games,
(Pre-Retirement) 1984-1993 (9 years)
3 Rings (6 career)
3 NBA MVPs (5 career)
3 Finals MVPs (6 career)
7 scoring titles (10 career)
3 steals titles
DPOTY
Lebron James Career (1258 games)
2003-present (17 years)
3 Rings
4 NBA
MVPs
3 Finals MVPs
1 scoring title
And this doesn't even factor in Jordan's vastly superior defense that can only be measured by watching both play.
And I'm supposed to believe Jordan is not a much better player? Please
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Peruvian Connect
All Star
OMG. He guarded David West & Tony Parker. two offensive juggernauts.
fifth column
Superstar
Bron went to Jared
You're a clown poster.
And I just caught you lying with your whole graphic and brought receipts, and you're completely ignoring that?
Clown.
Total bullshyt, ESPN's top 100 list and most others already had him #3-5 BEFORE 2016. Only Kareem, MJ, and Russell had more MVPs, only MJ, Magic, Duncan and Shaq had more Finals MVPs, and he was already over Russell, Shaq, Wilt, and Duncan in many people's minds. 2016 is what solidified that and put him over Kareem and Magic too for many people, and for him to extend his greatness and play as well as he did in 2018 and 2020 only added to the resume. You're trying to rewrite history.
Dumbest fukking narrative, especially since all the guys you just mentioned teamed up with each other to get those rings.
Yeah, ignore all the rings that Bird, McHale, Parish, DJ, Walton, Magic, Kareem, Worthy, IT, Dumars, Rodman, Hakeem, and Drexler picked up in MJ's era. Duncan taking a ring off of 22yo LBJ and Kawhi getting a ring in 2019 when LeBron was 34yo and out with an injury count to you, but none of the guys who got rings in MJ's prime count?
And MJ didn't make nobody ringless, they didn't it to themselves. Karl Malone played 20 years in the league and only faced MJ twice when he was already 35, and it ain't like MJ was the one guarding him, Rodman did that. In his prime he couldn't even get past Buck Williams and the fukking Blazers. Barkley only faced MJ once his entire career. Neither of them would be top-10 whether or not they won a ring, and they're the best players MJ supposedly "made ringless".